Unorthodox TheologyA forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. Full Preterism, Unitarianism)
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The word apostle comes from this word, ἀποστέλλω:
From apo and stello; set apart, i.e. (by implication) to send out (properly, on a mission) literally or figuratively -- put in, send (away, forth, out), set (at liberty).
I was using the term Apostle to mean someone who was actually sent by Christ. I include Paul in that because he met Christ on the road to Damascus. The other apostles were Peter, John, James, and the rest of the eleven. Christ literally spoke with them and sent them out.
Christ calls all christians, but not all christians are apostles.
This is interesting. That greek word is different than other places for "reward/wages" use in the NT. It appears to be akin to the rations of soldiers according to a lexicon.
Young) Romans 6:23 for the wages/oywnia <3800> of the sin [is] death, and the gift of God [is] life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Strong's Number G3800 matches the Greek ὀψώνιον (opsōnion), which occurs 4 times in 4 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV
3800.opsonion neuter of a presumed derivative of the same as 3795; rations for a soldier, i.e. (by extension) his stipend or pay:-- wages. 3795.opsarionop-sar'-ee-on neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of 3702; a relish to other food (as if cooked sauce), i.e. (specially), fish (presumably salted and dried as a condiment):--fish.
Revelation 22:12 And behold!, I am coming swiftly and the wages/misqoV <3408> of Me with Me, to render to each as the work is of Him
[Reve 22:12]
NKJV) Revelation 22:12 " And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward/misqoV <3408> [is] with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
Strong's Number G3408 matches the Greek μισθός (misthos), which occurs 29 times in 28 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV AV — reward 24, hire 3, wages 2
Good reference work LLOJ.
All Roman soldiers recieved the same base stipend - which included a ration of food. All recieved the same base, anything over this had to be earned by some meritorious combat deed. Everyone is in the same boat as the Roman soldiers. We are all entitled to death because all have sinned. But the gift of God, unlike that which we all deserve, is not earned by any deeds of our own, but by the highly meritorious work of Jesus Christ. Through Christ life is eternal - ongoing, or perpetual.
We are eternal beings within a physical body- We were born, yes, but we existed prior to our birth.
This is not to say that reincarnation or any other such form of hooey is true; merely that Scripture states we were known prior to conception. We were birthed into temporary physical bodies, but we are eternal beings.
God also foreknew every animal, insect and all forms of life. Does that mean they also existed prior to their birth, and therefore will live forever?
I will tweak the definition of eternal only slightly- We, our spirits, have no known beginning but we will exist without end.
You cannot tweak the definitions of the words 'eternal' and 'dead'. We must accept their definitions as they are, lest common reasoning which God gave us be derailed.
However one may try to explain the word 'death' away, death is death and it means the same where ever or in what ever case we may find it displayed. It is the cessation of life. The scriptures do not teach a zone between life and death such as might be called a 'twilight zone'. We are either alive, or we are dead.
Job:24:19 "Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned. 20. The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree."
__________________ "Walking with a friend in the dark is better than walking alone in the light." ~ Helen Keller ~
Last edited by Evergreen48; 7th August 2011 at 03:17 PM.
What do you and I think of when we think of death? A ceasing to exist? A lack of presence? How about separation?
So then, is it likely that as I suggested earlier, those who advocate annihilation are not seeing what is being said here properly?
It boils down to this: Either God is a liar, or He is not. If He is, what are we doing? If He is not, then we are wrong.
God is not wrong, He is not a liar, nor is He mistaken. You are mistaken. The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment. The lake of fire is the second death, not eternal torment.
God is not wrong, He is not a liar, nor is He mistaken. You are mistaken. The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment. The lake of fire is the second death, not eternal torment.
So let me ask you this question: What makes you believe that the final judgment constitutes the "wages of sin?"
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So let me ask you this question: What makes you believe that the final judgment constitutes the "wages of sin?"
Because it agrees with the rest of scripture.
Peter says the false teachers will meet destruction.
John says eternal life is only in Christ, those outside of Christ will not see eternal life.
John also says those who believe in Christ will not perish, but those who reject Him will.
The author of The Apocalypse of John says that they will be cast into the Lake of Fire, Which Is The Second Death.
Jesus said that He would return to give eternal life, or to give judgment. We know from all of scripture that God's judgment results in death.
It's really the totality of scripture which clinches this.
Because it agrees with the rest of scripture.
Peter says the false teachers will meet destruction.
John says eternal life is only in Christ, those outside of Christ will not see eternal life.
John also says those who believe in Christ will not perish, but those who reject Him will.
The author of The Apocalypse of John says that they will be cast into the Lake of Fire, Which Is The Second Death.
Jesus said that He would return to give eternal life, or to give judgment. We know from all of scripture that God's judgment results in death.
It's really the totality of scripture which clinches this.
That is a lot of winding around to reach a conclusion not spoken to directly in any fashion or form.
I've got my study to do, then I'll be back to revisit this discussion a little later.
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The letter killeth, that is why God’s Word tells us to seek, ask and knock.
Let us look a little closer at this awesome verse especially the Strong’s Concordances reference <9999 >, it is worse then 666.
(KJV) John 3 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should (not perish,) should be omitted), but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that (whosoever, should be "all") (believeth, should be that "all believing") in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
The following are a direct quote from Strong’s Concordance.
John 3:15
<9999 > should
<9999 > not
<9999 > perish,
<9999 > but
NT:9999
9999 inserted word (x);
This word was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Hebrew/Greek text. The word may be displayed in italics, or in parentheses or other brackets, to indicate that it is not in the original text.
Now we will look at a passage in the New Testament; viz., that precious declaration in John 3:16,
"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son," etc. We will take into consideration verses 14-17 inclusive; first I will clear up several points of obscurity and error and then give the rendering as it should be.
In verse 15 the words "not perish but" should be omitted; according to the best authorities they have been interpolated, probably from the following verse; they are left out from the New Version.
Strong's Whosoever 3956 pas (pas);including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: KJV-- all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
The word "whosoever" in the l5th and l6th verses should be rendered "all";in the original it is the word usually rendered all throughout the New Testament; it occurs hundreds of times, and it is rendered
"all" in over nine hundred instances, and whosoever in only about forty; the rendering all then is plainly the usual one.
The word rendered "believeth," in the original is a participle, "believing"; the clause should read, "that all, believing in him should not," etc. The words, "believing in him," are explanatory, telling us how "all" are to be saved, viz, by believing in him. In the common version it will be noticed that the participle is, without authority, rendered by the verb "believeth," and the words, "whosoever believeth in him" are thereby made to have a conditional force, as though it read, if they believe in him, implying that some will not believe in him, and hence will perish, and be lost eternally.
But this is not a correct rendering of the original, as I have shown above; the clause is not conditional, but is thrown in, as a participial form, as explanatory of the manner of the world's salvation, by believing in him; this view is fully confirmed by the l9th verse; "for God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved." Might be saved: Stong's 4982 sozo (sode'-zo); from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): KJV-- heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be
(make) whole. The word “might” was added by the translator Now I will give the whole passage as it ought to be.
"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up, that all,
believing in him. might have æonial life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son,
that all, believing in him, might not perish, but have æonial life. For God sent not his Son into the world
to condemn the world but that the world through him be saved."
Thus truthfully translated this passage is one of the grandest and most sweeping declarations of the final universal triumph of God's grace in the salvation of the world, contained in the Bible. It is positive and direct, and mighty enough, could they only appreciate it, to utterly silence all those narrow, shortsighted souls who think that God will only gain a partial victory over the devil, that he will not save the world, but only a portion of it, a vast number being eternally lost. It is very plain why the translators of the common version handled this passage as they did. Their creed would not allow them to accept it just as it reads; it required only a slight change to make it conform to their own idea. They insert the unusual rendering "whosoever," change believing to "believeth," and then, punctuating it accordingly, the passage is "tinkered" so as to harmonize with the creed. Thank God for deliverance from man made creeds!
"Let God be true, though every man be false" (Rom. 3:4).
Young’s Literal John 3:14 `And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up, 15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. 17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;
You know there are three deaths in the Bible but you refuse to address these thee deaths. You somehow think by ignore these facts they will go away.
Physical death which all men understand.
Dead in trespasses and sin (Eph. 2:1 ) which I call spiritual death or first death.
Second death. Which is first death killed by the second death.
Originally Posted by Timothew
God is not wrong, He is not a liar, nor is He mistaken. You are mistaken. The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment. The lake of fire is the second death, not eternal torment.
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