Where was Jesus' body? In the tomb? That's where it was originally placed, but did it stay there?
When the Resurrection happened, was Jesus in the tomb? The stone was moved right in front of the women when Jesus was Raised; did they see Him actually rise up?
No. The only possibility was that Jesus went as a whole person into sheol/hades.
What does the Bible say? Why would non-Christians have non-immortal souls? If they are going to experience hell or a foretaste of hell, if their soul is dead, then it is utterly annihilated and cannot suffer in any way, shape, or form. That would be closer to a Buddhist concept of Nirvana than hell. Does not the Bible make it clear that they will experience hell? A "dead soul" (quotes due to the impossibility) cannot experience hell.
No the bible does not make it clear that they will experience hell.
The bible makes it clear that they will experience death. The wages of sin is death. The soul that sins will die.
To die spiritually isn't to physically die but to be cut-off from a relationship with God.
There is no such thing as soul death or soul sleep. The Jews don't believe it and neither do orthodox Christians.
Originally Posted by wannabeadesigirl
Genesis 2:7
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
Many other copies of the Bible from other versions say that "On the day you eat of it, you will die"
It's obvious from the rest of the story that Adam and Eve did not physically die the second that fruit touched their lips. They suffered 900+ years before death released them.
1. That "day" didn't end until the Resurrection of Christ. We're actually in the 8th day of Creation, if you will.
2. Adam and Eve didn't suffer due to long age. They suffered because they disobeyed. Did they reconcile with God after? I honestly believe so based on both Jewish and Early Christian belief and practice. If so, then your idea of them "suffering" makes no logical sense.
Their souls died. There's no other explaination for why God told them they would die the day they ate of the fruit. It was their faith in God's messiah that kept their souls from staying dead once Christ died.
The soul is considered the life of the person. That's the Jewish belief. If the soul died, then THEY'D BE INSTANTLY DEAD.
Furthermore, they'd have no clue about a Messiah.
Another verse I want to draw attention to is this one: Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Poetic language. Please learn something of Jewish and Greek idiom.
If the soul cannot be destroyed why is Jesus giving us a warning about the destruction of the soul?
It is a hyperbole, something very commonly used in philosophical and theological debating by rabbis and Greek philosophers at the time.
I'm not entirely sure where in the Bible it says we have immortal souls. Every indication I've seen lends me to believe that our souls can indeed be destroyed.
What does Genesis 1 teach about God's Creation? It is good. What about humanity? It is very good.
God the Son came to save, not to condemn or to destroy. God's the God of Life, not death. You're stating some very dangerous stuff by implying God is otherwise.
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Last edited by PaladinValer; 26th July 2011 at 05:57 PM.
1. That "day" didn't end until the Resurrection of Christ. We're actually in the 8th day of Creation, if you will.
2. Adam and Eve didn't suffer due to long age. They suffered because they disobeyed. Did they reconcile with God after? I honestly believe so based on both Jewish and Early Christian belief and practice. If so, then your idea of them "suffering" makes no logical sense.
They were given pain in childbirth, pain in obtaining food, and seperation from God because of their disobedience. They had to live with (as we all do) those consequences until they died presumably 900+ years later. So no they didn't suffer because of Old age...they suffered because they (and all of us) had to live in a state that God did not intend for any of us to live in. All because they disobeyed.
The soul is considered the life of the person. That's the Jewish belief. If the soul died, then THEY'D BE INSTANTLY DEAD.
Furthermore, they'd have no clue about a Messiah.
The blood ( a biological organ) is considered the life of the person according to the laws in the Old testament and in Genesis. Nowhere in the OT do I find indications that the soul is what gives life to the body. Yes I do believe our soul is the part of us made in the image of God, since God cannot have a body.
I would like to look more into the Jewish concept of the soul, particularly since I've had more than one Jew tell me that Judaism doesn't have a hell as we understand it in Christianity.
I have to disagree with you wholeheartedly on the not knowing about the messiah thing. God promised the serpent, presumably within Adam and Eves hearing, that he would send someone to crush the serpents head, and that the man would be of the womans seed. That's a promise of the messiah. What's more other faiths, much older than Christianity, have similar messiah figures who conquer and destroy demonic figures to the benefit of humanity. I cannot believe that Adam and Eve had no clue about a messiah. Otherwise similar legends wouldn't be found worldwide. There had to have been hope.
Going back to your post about their reconciliation in later life with God I believe personally that their faith in that nameless Messiah is what gave them grace and put them in their waiting place until Jesus saved them.
The creation God created is Good...indeed is very good. Humanity as God created it is good...very good. However, I believe we are a far Cry from what God created. Yes we still have inklings of that Eden in our ability to empathize, to create, to love unconditionally. At the same time sin has corrupted us, and has made an unnatural mess out of everything. We are not as we were created to be.
What do you feel I'm implying God to be? God is not the God of needless destruction yes, but the Bible tells us that he is a refining fire. A refining fire destroys dross. In a way God can destroy our imperfections, and that's not a negative connotation.
Anyway, I've always thought that the figure who could destroy body and soul in hell would be Satan since he seems to be the one who would rule hell.
I would still like to see some Bible verses about the born immortality of the soul. There are ALOT of verses (poetic or not) about a person going down to sleep, of falling asleep (Paul uses that term in reference to other Christians), of pleading with God not to let them go down into the dust to sleep.
And here's another question: What does it matter if our souls are unaware of the passage of time here on earth and then rise again to glory or if they go immediately to glory? For all we know the blip between here and there is 1000 years of time that have gone by between our death and resurrection to a new body. And it all puts us where we want to be: With God. (at least for the Christian...that we know of.)
Well, well, well, we have here yet another thread on soul sleep, or, at least, a somewhat different aspect of it. This is becoming like GT a few months back with numerous threads on the Sabbath.
Suffice it to say, when our Lord Jesus Christ stated clearly and emphatically that the damned will be burned with unquenchable fire and be in a place where the worm does not die, he actually meant what he said. If worms do not die, should we wishfully believe that humans disappear mystically into the eternal ether of nothingness?
Well, well, well, we have here yet another thread on soul sleep, or, at least, a somewhat different aspect of it. This is becoming like GT a few months back with numerous threads on the Sabbath.
Suffice it to say, when our Lord Jesus Christ stated clearly and emphatically that the damned will be burned with unquenchable fire and be in a place where the worm does not die, he actually meant what he said. If worms do not die, should we wishfully believe that humans disappear mystically into the eternal ether of nothingness?
Well that's blunt...
If we are to believe God is a God of Justice are we to believe he'll send the average Joe Schmoe to the same hell he'd send (insert favorite mass genocidal maniac here)? I mean for heavens sake his own son suffered a personal hell for a total of 3 days max...and he's going to send his beloved creation to eternal torment?
That's not justice...it's sadism. We have a sadistic God who lies about loving his creation, and we're darned lucky we live when we do to have known about Jesus and to have accepted him.
They were given pain in childbirth, pain in obtaining food, and seperation from God because of their disobedience.
Wrong: their pains were increased.
Toiling for food isn't painful. Furthermore, you don't understand what the Holy Bible is getting at.
God would have provided for their every need. They chose to reject that when they decided to get something for themselves. Therefore, God allowed that. The story is about the sins of personal desire over desiring Love and Light first.
They had to live with (as we all do) those consequences until they died presumably 900+ years later. So no they didn't suffer because of Old age...they suffered because they (and all of us) had to live in a state that God did not intend for any of us to live in. All because they disobeyed.
That's my argument. Now, it doesn't address what you quoted me to say, so I don't get truly what you found so objectionable.
The blood ( a biological organ) is considered the life of the person according to the laws in the Old testament and in Genesis. Nowhere in the OT do I find indications that the soul is what gives life to the body.
Common Jewish belief. Ask any Jew today.
Yes I do believe our soul is the part of us made in the image of God, since God cannot have a body.
Waaaaaiiiit a minute.
God does have a body. Jesus, God the Son Incarnate, didn't cease upon the Ascension being. While the Father and the Holy Spirit are indeed without physical form, to say God doesn't have a body is not true.
The fullness of God is in each of the Persons. Jesus is God the Son and definitely has a body.
I would like to look more into the Jewish concept of the soul, particularly since I've had more than one Jew tell me that Judaism doesn't have a hell as we understand it in Christianity.
It isn't hard: Jews believe that a person isn't alive until it takes its first breath. That breath is the life, the soul.
Furthermore, the Jews who've told you they don't have a concept of hell are correct: their religion rejects the notion of hell.
I have to disagree with you wholeheartedly on the not knowing about the messiah thing. God promised the serpent, presumably within Adam and Eves hearing, that he would send someone to crush the serpents head, and that the man would be of the womans seed.
All well and good, but Adam and Eve didn't know what God meant. Judaism didn't understand or have a concept of a Messiah until MUCH later, around the 7th and 6th centuries.
That's a promise of the messiah.
I hate to break it to you, but again, just because they heard what God said doesn't mean they understood it. The fact remains that Judaism didn't have a concept of a Messiah until the Babylonian Captivity.
What's more other faiths, much older than Christianity, have similar messiah figures who conquer and destroy demonic figures to the benefit of humanity.
True. Zoroastrianism does, and it is from them Judaism probably got the idea in the first place.
I cannot believe that Adam and Eve had no clue about a messiah. Otherwise similar legends wouldn't be found worldwide. There had to have been hope.
They understood God as a Messianic figure to be sure. They didn't have a concept of exactly how or when or where, etc.
Going back to your post about their reconciliation in later life with God I believe personally that their faith in that nameless Messiah is what gave them grace and put them in their waiting place until Jesus saved them.
Their faith in God and the implied reconciliation allowed them to await the First Advent in sheol/hades, correct.
The creation God created is Good...indeed is very good. Humanity as God created it is good...very good. However, I believe we are a far Cry from what God created.
That isn't the question, so I don't see your objection.
Yes we still have inklings of that Eden in our ability to empathize, to create, to love unconditionally. At the same time sin has corrupted us, and has made an unnatural mess out of everything. We are not as we were created to be.
We are exactly the same except for a broken soul and corrupt nature. Human nature isn't what it used to be because of our own selfish choices. Those choices broke our soul, inhibiting it. Chiefly, it shattered our relationship with God, which we have through the rational part of our soul which is usually referred to as our spirit by the Early Church Fathers. Because of that, we are born in a state of sin, a state that we are not ourselves guilty of but which we nonetheless find ourselves in even at the moment of conception.
The actual traits that make us human in a biological sense never changed. What changed is the spiritual sense, which is just as important to our nature as our biological sense.
What do you feel I'm implying God to be? God is not the God of needless destruction yes, but the Bible tells us that he is a refining fire. A refining fire destroys dross. In a way God can destroy our imperfections, and that's not a negative connotation.
Again, you need to realize poetic language when you read Hebrew and Greek language. Not every thing you read in those languages has to be literal. Both ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek are rich in symbolic and idomatic language that must be considered when it is used as such.
We who are Christians are being refined right now. Are you literally on fire? If so, put yourself out. Otherwise, you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.
Anyway, I've always thought that the figure who could destroy body and soul in hell would be Satan since he seems to be the one who would rule hell.
The Devil truly has no true power. He is allowed to do only what God allows him to do. Even in hell, God is Lord and King.
I would still like to see some Bible verses about the born immortality of the soul. There are ALOT of verses (poetic or not) about a person going down to sleep, of falling asleep (Paul uses that term in reference to other Christians), of pleading with God not to let them go down into the dust to sleep.
If it is poetic, then obviously it isn't literal. That's a part of poetry and idiom.
The Greeks talked about soul sleep often. From what we know of their language however, we know that it was idiom; it was a figure of speech. Hebrew is no different.
And as I said, both the Jews and the Pagan Greeks had a strikingly similar view of the afterlife. You could reasonably say that it was the same. Otherwise, the Jewish authors of the Septuagint translation of the OT would have never translated "sheol" as "hades." Their entire religion was based on being a light to the world; it wouldn't make sense for them to translate a word to something outright Pagan unless for some reason they had the exact same idea.
And furthermore, the writers of the NT use the word "hades" often. Even Jesus speaks of it.
And here's another question: What does it matter if our souls are unaware of the passage of time here on earth and then rise again to glory or if they go immediately to glory
Timelessness is a part of sheol/hades, but it doesn't change the fact that time is a part of our own material plane. It is true that time is irrelevant for those in sheol/hades. Literally, you're dead and alive again in what seems like a flash. However, at the same time, it'll felt like a literal eternity as well. Both would be true. It is a time paradox and a part of temporal mechanics that, honestly, isn't easy for even the smartest of human beings.
For all we know the blip between here and there is 1000 years of time that have gone by between our death and resurrection to a new body.
And the opposite a true; it may feel equally that in a realm of irrelevant time, a thousand years as experienced here on Earth is a "blip" in sheol/hades.
You do seem to have a fair understanding of temporal mechanics. When you consider all aspects of time and apply the philosophy logically, you'll see how strange it truly is.
And it all puts us where we want to be: With God. (at least for the Christian...that we know of.)
There is no hell right now. Some are experiencing a foretaste of it, but right now, there is no full, outright hell. Likewise, there are those who are experiencing a foretaste of heaven. Heaven, however, is now populated by those Jesus took with Him in His Resurrection, as the Bible says. That means all those in OT from all across the world who ever passed away and met with favor from God are already in heaven, which also includes the BVM and perhaps the Saints.
Originally Posted by wannabeadesigirl
Well that's blunt...
If we are to believe God is a God of Justice are we to believe he'll send the average Joe Schmoe to the same hell he'd send (insert favorite mass genocidal maniac here)? I mean for heavens sake his own son suffered a personal hell for a total of 3 days max...and he's going to send his beloved creation to eternal torment?
Wrong. Jesus did not go to hell. He went to sheol/hades. That isn't hell.
__________________ President of the WACCAV To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. For You are the Lord Most High, of great compassion, long-suffering, and very merciful, and You relent at human suffering. O Lord, according to Your great goodness You have promised repentance and forgiveness to those who have sinned against You, and in the multitude of Your mercies You have appointed repentance for sinners so that they may be saved.
-Prayer of Manasseh verse 7 (NRSV) To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Revelation 20:10
"and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Now, one would have to have an immortal soul to be able to suffer forever ...
__________________ "and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." - John 8:32
"The tyrant dies and his rule is over; the martyr dies and his rule begins." - Søren Kierkegaard 1848
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." - Romans 8:29
If we are to believe God is a God of Justice are we to believe he'll send the average Joe Schmoe to the same hell he'd send (insert favorite mass genocidal maniac here)? I mean for heavens sake his own son suffered a personal hell for a total of 3 days max...and he's going to send his beloved creation to eternal torment?
That's not justice...it's sadism. We have a sadistic God who lies about loving his creation, and we're darned lucky we live when we do to have known about Jesus and to have accepted him.
I cannot help the bluntness of the words of Jesus Christ. We can either believe Him or we can believe in our own personal Jesus Christ who does and says the things we think He should. Which do you believe?
Biblically speaking, there is no such thing as an immortal soul, because the biblical soul is not the immaterial essence of a person and does not survive death
Ezekiel 18:4
Especially Numbers 23:10
Judges 16:30
__________________ Shalom
Mike King
"Each of us, a cell of awareness, imperfect and incomplete. Genetic blends with uncertain ends on a fortune hunt thats far too fleet.." Neil Peart, Rush.
I don't generally subscribe to "immortality of the soul", at least in the sense that the soul is an ethereal/ghost-like thing residing in my body that is innately immortal and the like.
That said, I don't believe in soul sleep or annihilationism.
-CryptoLutheran
__________________ Heavenly Father, be with all Your children who dwell in the Land. In Christ's Name may there be peace for all who dwell there.
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