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  #1  
Unread 22nd July 2011, 11:47 PM
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Why did Paul tell Timothy to drink some wine?

I heard a few times now that the reason for this was because the water was dirty and this made Timothy sick.
But if the water was really dirty enough to make a person sick then what sense would it make for Paul to tell him to no longer drink ONLY water but to use a LITTLE wine? If the water is dirty and makes me sick then I wouldn't want to drink ANY dirty water. Then drinking a little wine in addition to the dirty water wouldn't have made any difference.
So from that standpoint this interpretation is not really convincing to me unless you say that Timothy added a little wine to the dirty water to neutralize the bacteria but I don't know if a little wine could do that and also Paul does not really say that he should mix wine into the water to kill off germs.
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  #2  
Unread 23rd July 2011, 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted by sam7 View Post
I heard a few times now that the reason for this was because the water was dirty and this made Timothy sick.
But if the water was really dirty enough to make a person sick then what sense would it make for Paul to tell him to no longer drink ONLY water but to use a LITTLE wine? If the water is dirty and makes me sick then I wouldn't want to drink ANY dirty water. Then drinking a little wine in addition to the dirty water wouldn't have made any difference.
So from that standpoint this interpretation is not really convincing to me unless you say that Timothy added a little wine to the dirty water to neutralize the bacteria but I don't know if a little wine could do that and also Paul does not really say that he should mix wine into the water to kill off germs.
Sam,

Here is what scripture says:
1Ti 5:23
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
Anything past that is what man adds to scripture. We can guess, but it is only that: a guess (and an educated guess based upon facts from the time).

But Paul told Timothy drink a little wine. Why? To help his stomach and other issues. From time to time Timothy looks like he gets ill; Paul is saying a little wine will help. We know in the natural that wine does have properties that helps with stomach illnesses (and other things, such as heart health) -- isn't God good.

The term "a little wine" (as in alla ainōi oligōi chrō) has emphasis in the Greek on the word "little" (oligōi ), which different commentaries interpret slightly differently. To some it is quantity: a little (ie: not enough to get drunk; drunk is bad biblically speaking); to some it is quantity: weak wine or wine mixed with water.

The term "infirmities" (astheneias) means weakness, lack of strength. Some make Timothy out to be an invalid (e.g. Robertson), but gettin that simply from astheneias is stretching it, especially when the only remedy offered to help was to drink a little wine.

Don't know if this adds anything to your understanding, but for what it's worth, there it is
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Unread 23rd July 2011, 10:28 AM
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Thanks for your comments.
I do not know which version I read but the version which I read also had "only" in it. Does this mean that only isn't in the "original" text?

And another thing which I also asked myself which you also addressed is the little. If Paul was telling Timothy to stop drinking dirty water completely then my thought was that if Timothy instead switches to wine then drinking a little wine wouldn't be enough to survive. For example if Timothy drank nothing but one glass of wine every day then it wouldn't be enoug liquid. If on the other hand Timothy started drinking like 2 litres of wine every day then he might have gotten drunk if the wine was as strong as our wine today. Maybe the little really refers to the strength of the wine this would make the most sense. But it's still a lot of speculation. I wish this was clearer.

And another thing I also don't understand is, why didn't Paul simply tell Timothy to claim his healing or to pray over the dirty water for it to be made clean or to do anything along these lines? After all Jesus also said that no deadly thing would harm them if they drink it. Why didn't Paul tell Timothy to just proclaim this promise and to stand on it?
That's also one problem which I have with wof theology because a lot of the things which they say we must do like commanding sicknesses to go or speaking to a sickness are things which Paul never did or mentioned. Why didn't Paul simply tell Timothy to speak to his infirmities and to be made whole? Somehow this doesn't really fit together. It's as if there is a difference between how Jesus handled diseases and how Paul handled diseases.
The whole debate about healing would never have come up if Paul had only once said something like "just claim your healing" or "speak to your sickness" or "healing belongs to us". Why didn't he just say it? This would have ended all guessing and arguing about healing.
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Unread 24th July 2011, 03:48 AM
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There's no proof he was saying to drink wine as in the alcoholic version...which is grapes that are going bad, and ferment, making alcohol in the "wine"

In those times they drank the "fruit of the vine" which today we call "grape juice"...which, btw, has been verified by medical science in testing to have numerous health benefits.

But, I understand that many Christians that refuse to subcribe to holiness as taught in the scriptures...like to have their excuse for drinkin some wine, so they can be forgiven winos!
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Unread 24th July 2011, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by sam7 View Post
Thanks for your comments.
I do not know which version I read but the version which I read also had "only" in it. Does this mean that only isn't in the "original" text?
oops. Sorry I missed the emphasis on "only" in your question. The original text actuallys says: "no longer only" + "be drinking water" (mēketi hudropotei). So yes, in English that is "no longer drink only water."

Originally Posted by sam7 View Post
And another thing which I also asked myself which you also addressed is the little. If Paul was telling Timothy to stop drinking dirty water completely then my thought was that if Timothy instead switches to wine then drinking a little wine wouldn't be enough to survive. For example if Timothy drank nothing but one glass of wine every day then it wouldn't be enoug liquid. If on the other hand Timothy started drinking like 2 litres of wine every day then he might have gotten drunk if the wine was as strong as our wine today. Maybe the little really refers to the strength of the wine this would make the most sense. But it's still a lot of speculation. I wish this was clearer.
There were many different "levels" of wine then, as today. Some was weak and some was strong. As today in some European communities, wine is used instead of water at meals, but the wine is so diluted that it couldn't make one drunk. As a note: some used to argue that the wine of that day was all non-fermented and that Jesus did not dring wine that could make Him drunk. If this were the case, then His critics would have no reason to call Him and His disciples drunkards or winebibbers.

Originally Posted by sam7 View Post
And another thing I also don't understand is, why didn't Paul simply tell Timothy to claim his healing or to pray over the dirty water for it to be made clean or to do anything along these lines? After all Jesus also said that no deadly thing would harm them if they drink it. Why didn't Paul tell Timothy to just proclaim this promise and to stand on it?
I don't know; Paul didn't tell us. But as with nazareth in Mark 6:5, some simply were not strong enough in faith to achieve their healing without natural help. It is possible that Timothy was such a one. We know that Jesus many times told his disciples that they were "of little faith." But the final answer is: Paul didn't tell us.

Originally Posted by sam7 View Post
That's also one problem which I have with wof theology because a lot of the things which they say we must do like commanding sicknesses to go or speaking to a sickness are things which Paul never did or mentioned. Why didn't Paul simply tell Timothy to speak to his infirmities and to be made whole? Somehow this doesn't really fit together. It's as if there is a difference between how Jesus handled diseases and how Paul handled diseases.
Not really, and why stick with just Paul? Peter and John met a man asking for alms, and what did they do? Told him to get up and walk! They didn't tell him to go to a doctor; didn't tell him to get some crutches; didn't give him leg braces. No, they commanded him with the Word to get up and walk in Jesus name.

It is easy to point to verses that "look" like they refute WoF because of one's lack of faith, but this only dismisses the verses that tell us how we should act and how we should be without doubt.
Mar 11:24 (CEV) Everything you ask for in prayer will be yours, if you only have faith.

Jas 1:6 (CEV) But when you ask for something, you must have faith and not doubt. Anyone who doubts is like an ocean wave tossed around in a storm. 7 If you are that kind of person, you can't make up your mind, and you surely can't be trusted. So don't expect the Lord to give you anything at all.

1Jn 5:14 (CEV) We are certain that God will hear our prayers when we ask for what pleases him. 15 And if we know that God listens when we pray, we are sure that our prayers have already been answered.
Originally Posted by sam7 View Post
The whole debate about healing would never have come up if Paul had only once said something like "just claim your healing" or "speak to your sickness" or "healing belongs to us". Why didn't he just say it? This would have ended all guessing and arguing about healing.
No it wouldn't have; he would have simply been ignored as Jesus, James and John are ignored in the above quoted verses when we talk about healing. Other verses would be found that seem to invalidate the healing claim. Sorry, Sam, but that argument simply does not fly.
Mat 9:28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord. 29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you. 30a And their eyes were opened;
What happened here? Blind men believed and they received. Why (according to Jesus)? Because they had faith. And the answer back is "yeah, but Jesus healed them by laying on His hands." Ok....
Mar 5:25 And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years, 26 And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse, 27 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment. 28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole. 29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague. 30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes? 31 And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me? 32 And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing. 33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth. 34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
The woman knew that she only need to touch Jesus: she needed to reach out and take her healing v28.

Jesus didn't know who touched Him v30. But he felt power go out of him...
Luk 8:46 (CEV) But Jesus answered, "Someone touched me, because I felt power going out from me."
So Jesus didn't even lay hands or even KNOW this healing was about to happen. She touched, she took, she got healed.

Jesus said "who touched me?" The disciples said "Everyone!!!!" Jesus said, someone just took their healing. The woman comes forward.

And Jesus says: "why did you think such a fool thing as you being able to reach out and take your healing!!!"

ummm. No. No.

Jesus says: Well done!! Your faith in My power has made you whole. Go and be healed forever of this thing.

----


Sam, I must stress at this point as you have nudged up to the edge of the CF rules: you've asked questions and you may ask more; but because you do not carry a WoF icon you may not debate these answers here, but take them for what they are. There are places on CF for non-WoFers to debate such answers, but the WoF house is not the place. Thanks ahead of time for your understanding of the rules.

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Unread 24th July 2011, 07:45 PM
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wine has long been used for medicinal purposes, to kill pain, and also to kill the cough reflex in the brain.
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  #7  
Unread 24th July 2011, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by pdudgeon View Post
wine has long been used for medicinal purposes, to kill pain, and also to kill the cough reflex in the brain.
In order to use it to "kill pain", one would have to get drunk on it...and getting intoxicated is a sin (Ephesians 5:18, 1 Peter 4:3)

Maybe that was for those folks that didn't receive their healing and they figured they's get drunk to kill the pain and repent later...
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Unread 25th July 2011, 09:17 PM
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@ km richards

If you think drinking some wine is such a sin then don't do it but I don't like it how you come along making it look like if you drink some wine you're sinning and cannot be "holy" that's ridiculous.
Also if Jesus had not produced alcoholic wine at the wedding it would have made no sense that master complained:
"Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!"

@ ABlessedMan

There are places on CF for non-WoFers to debate such answers, but the WoF house is not the place. Thanks ahead of time for your understanding of the rules.
Where can I debate such answers? I didn't know that it's not allowed to ask things here. That's confusing...
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Unread 25th July 2011, 09:29 PM
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OK, so if you can drink alcoholic wine and NOT get drunk
(getting drunk IS actually a sin)...then have at it...

Luke 5:39
No man also having drunk old wine straightway desires new: for he saith, The old is better.

This indicates that new wine (fresh grape juice that is not fermented, or rotting) is mainstream...old wine (fermented) is what drunks like...and the carnal mind just can't resist having a few glasses cause it makes the flesh feel good!...It's so socially accepted, I mean everyone is doing it, even alot of pastors and church leaders...right?

What happened to purity and holiness unto the Lord anyway?

Problem is with people that want to fight for their right to drink grape juice that is rotting, which is what causes the alcohol content, they can't just have one glass...and soon they are drunk but refuse to repent and keep doing it.

If you want it for health reasons, just drink organic grape juice!

Anywho, be led by the Holy Ghost when drinkin, eh?
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Unread 25th July 2011, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by sam7 View Post
@ ABlessedMan
Where can I debate such answers? I didn't know that it's not allowed to ask things here. That's confusing...
Hi Sam.

To be clear, I didn't find anything wrong with your current questions, but rather as I said: "you have nudged up to the edge of the CF rules."

There is nothing wrong with asking questions, as you have done, to get the Word/Faith viewpoint(s) on an issue. I simply get watchful when I see certain manners of discussing that I have seen in debate forums before. I was simply reminding that this is not a debate forum, so you may ask and we will answer. If you need clarification or it opens a topic broader, ask away any other quesiton you'd like answered from the Word/Faith viewpoint. You can take the answer for what it is worth. If you think the answer is wrong, you may not debate it or try to change us to your viewpoint (ie: proselytize). And by all means you can worship and fellowship with us all you want.

We want to keep a calm house. That's all. Not that you crossed that line, mind you. Just my paranoia .

You've had some great questions and points, btw.
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