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Old 16th July 2011, 04:57 PM
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Quantum mechanics and God

Quantum physics is the study of the subatomic world. It is here that we have the most recent evidence of the existence of God. Until recently, it was assumed that matter existed before intelligence. But now we know, because of quantum physics, that intelligence existed before matter – that matter is the result of intelligence 13.


This world is a mystery. It is not just that we do not understand now; we can never understand it. The reason we can never understand it is because the more we try to observe the particles in the micro-world, the more they behave differently! But how is that possible? These particles have no brains; they have no life. But somehow there is some Consciousness that is aware that It is being watched! How is this possible? And how can we solve this mystery when the particles behave differently when they are being observed?

Quantum physicists conducted some experiments with light, using walls with slits in them. They would beam a light ray onto a wall. The light photons would hit the wall like waves. But then they directly observe the light. Then the light would hit the wall like particles. Then they would have light hit a wall from the opposite direction. Initially, they both hit the light as waves. But when light photon A is observed, it then hits the wall as a particle, the photon B hits the wall as a particle as well. This is really weird. It is as if photon B “knew” what was happening to photon A and acted according. Then they moved source of photon B closer to its target than the source of photon A to its wall. Using super atomic measurements, they could measure the time the light B hits it wall before light A hits its wall. Then they decided to directly observe light A, but not B. The light photon B would hit the wall as a particle before light photon A was observed. The cause and effect still happened, even though the effect happened before the cause was going to happen!

In classic physics, scientists were finding that what people interpreted as a mystery had natural, scientific explanations. Scientists such as Dawkins were confident that eventually everything can be explained. But in modern quantum physics, the opposite is true. The more they researched the sub-atomic world, the more they found that the world was mysterious, if not bizarre. Sub-atomic particles act as if they know they are being watched! In some way, in the micro-world, there is a consciousness that defies explanations. So it is not that intelligence can be reduced to mere matter, but rather matter is reduced to an intelligence – which I would say is an Intelligent Mind calling all the shots.

Here is what Max Planck, the father of quantam mechanics, has said:

As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.

I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.


Max Planck - Wikiquote
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I can understand the spectator saying, “This is all hocus-pocus”; ... But in what conceivable frame of mind does he rush in to select one particular scroll of the scriptures of this one particular group (a scroll which had always belonged to them and been a part of their hocus-pocus, if it was hocus-pocus); why in the world should the man in the street say that one particular scroll was not bosh, but was the one and only truth by which all the other things were to be condemned?

G.K. Chesterton
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  #2  
Old 16th July 2011, 05:11 PM
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I read a journal article (I think from the Journal for The Scientific Study of Religion, but don't quote me on that) which in part brought QM in as a way of understanding the dual nature of Christ, how wave-particle duality can help understand how Christ can be both fully human and fully divine; existing in and acting according to the conventions which govern two seemingly contradictory natures simultaneously. Gave pause for thought.
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Old 16th July 2011, 05:29 PM
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I agree with Planck that consciousness is primary but I'm not so sure he would agree with the idea that quantum mechanics proves God. God requires a leap beyond physics. Physics can neither prove nor disprove Him. It's not the right field of inquiry for that. At most I think you can say that modern physics is compatible with faith and that there might be some minor areas of similarity between what modern physicists are saying and certain "mystics" of the past said.

Notice when you read older books that try to show how science proves religion you find that half the scientific theories are no longer even accepted anymore? It's a sure way to make your religion obsolete in a few decades.
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Old 16th July 2011, 06:52 PM
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The quantum world does not make sense. Any physicist can appreciate that property of elegance. It is a true testament that material thinking as it stands now is obsolete with God's creation. We see His glory through everything, and since everything is composed of such, maybe this is one of the things being implied.

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Old 19th July 2011, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Ishraqiyun View Post
I agree with Planck that consciousness is primary but I'm not so sure he would agree with the idea that quantum mechanics proves God.


I never said that Planck was a believer. In fact, I think he was probably not. It proves nothing for believers to quote from other believers, or atheists to quote from other atheists. But a strong argument is when you can support a specific argument by quoting someone from the other side. It does not mean that that this someone is totally on your side.

I was just quoting from Planck to show what you agreed on – that consciousness is primary. This only shows that what atheistic materialists have been saying is wrong. Matter did not cause consciousness. Instead conscious caused matter.

Now, this does define what this consciousness is. Are there multiple consciousnesses or just one ultimate consciousness. If there are multiple consciousnesses, then we would have polytheism, each consciousness would be a god. This is why this argument is popular among New Agers. But if there is only one ultimate consciousness, then we would have theism. We would need other arguments outside of physics to determine which is true.

But Quantum Mechanics would rule out atheism, with its materialistic presupposition. It would rule out Deism, since it shows that God or gods so intricately involved in the world even with sub-atomic particles. It would rule out pantheism, a belief that God is just an It, a force throughout the world; Quantum Mechanics shows that God or gods would be conscious and not just a mindless force.




God requires a leap beyond physics. Physics can neither prove nor disprove Him. It's not the right field of inquiry for that. At most I think you can say that modern physics is compatible with faith and that there might be some minor areas of similarity between what modern physicists are saying and certain "mystics" of the past said.


I agree. I never meant to say that I can prove God. There is a leap of faith, but it is a reasonable faith. I am just showing that the recent discoveries in physics is more compatible with Christianity’s mystical view of the world. But physics by itself does not rule out other forms of mysticism.


Notice when you read older books that try to show how science proves religion you find that half the scientific theories are no longer even accepted anymore? It's a sure way to make your religion obsolete in a few decades.
I agree. I do not intend to take away the Holy Spirit’s role in producing faith within us.


But this works both ways.

Atheist scientists 50 years ago used to scoff at Genesis 1 because they said that the world had no beginning. It was always existed. But now that has been completely refuted by the Big Bang Theory, which is a lot more than just a theory. It is a fact that our universe is expanding. And since it is expanding, that means that the universe is once just a point of singularity. Now scientists estimate that the universe is 14.5 billion years. So the Bible was right all along, and it was the scoffers who were wrong.

But just as the argument that atheists used to give that the world is eternal did not make atheism obsolete when that was shown to be wrong, I do not think that we have to worry that our religion will ever be obsolete. And not only that, but God will not allow that to happen. The gates of death and hell will not prevail against His church.
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I can understand the spectator saying, “This is all hocus-pocus”; ... But in what conceivable frame of mind does he rush in to select one particular scroll of the scriptures of this one particular group (a scroll which had always belonged to them and been a part of their hocus-pocus, if it was hocus-pocus); why in the world should the man in the street say that one particular scroll was not bosh, but was the one and only truth by which all the other things were to be condemned?

G.K. Chesterton
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Old 19th July 2011, 07:08 PM
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Interesting.
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Old 19th July 2011, 07:17 PM
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2+2=5

That's QM in a nutshell.
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Old 20th July 2011, 01:08 AM
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I read an article in Discover Magazine about a year ago that described a truly mind boggling experiment. Some physicists came up with the bright idea of performing a series of observations on photons travelling along a single path. These observations were divided among stations, each of which corresponded to a distinctly different time interval from the moment that the photons were released, and the observations were made randomly.

Because it was known that observations should somehow effect the behavior of the photons, the goal was to determine the affect that one observation had on another. Interestingly enough, there was a strong correlation between the frequency of observations made in the stations further down the line and an observable effect measured at the stations closest to the point of origin.

What this meant was that an event that happend later in time was affecting observations that had occurred earlier - causality was flowing backwards, like a quantum mechanical destiny.
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Old 20th July 2011, 11:03 AM
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But this works both ways.

Atheist scientists 50 years ago used to scoff at Genesis 1 because they said that the world had no beginning. It was always existed. But now that has been completely refuted by the Big Bang Theory, which is a lot more than just a theory.
Good point.
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