Obama calls for a return to pre-1967 Israel

Frogster · #41 23rd May 2011, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by AudioArtist

So, Jewish people are saved - regardless of whether they reject Christ or even show vile hostility to Him and His followers - simply by virtue of their genetic make-up and geographical location?

I don't understand how this is justice. Surely, as John the Baptist said, the Lord can make rocks into descendants of Abraham?

As it happens, my mother is racially Jewish (though Christian in faith), but I still find what I've read by some Messianic believers unscriptural and almost racist. Any help would be welcome here, as I do want my understanding improved, and I hope what I've understood by these believers' writings isn't all there is to it.

Just ask MJ beleivers to support their doctrine, using NT thelogy, and Abraham, and you will hear a loud silence.

The law is not of promise, the whole thing rested on Abraham the gentile, who is the father of us all.

Romans 4:9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.

Alpine · #42 23rd May 2011, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by Easy G (G²)

However, Hagee's views of Zionism have deadly ramifications when it comes to rejoicing over those in Arabic nations (i.e. Iraq, Iran, etc) going to war with the Jews and dying so that the Jews can be established----as that can lead to uncessary provoking of war on the Jewish people as well as the people of God. I'd say that the main way he'd perhaps qualify as "anti-semitic" is in how his arguments paralell the comments of many anti-semetic groups who try to spiritualize all actions of Jewish believers.

Your post encapsulated everything that is bothering me about how many as you put it, make "super humans" out of Jews and spiritualize them, despite the fact a jew is just as human as anyone else and in need of a Savior.

Much of this rampant adulation is a means to an end -- it has nothing to do with the actual jews -- but it has everything to do with a narrow interpretation of prophecy.

Meanwhile many of those with this mindset have hardly had any real interaction with real jewish people. In fact it's very similar to cheering for your favorite sports team. "Go Israel go!" "Go get 'em you're on team God!"

The reality is that Jews need Jesus. Israel needs Jesus.

Ajax 777 · #43 23rd May 2011, 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by Alpine

The reality is that Jews need Jesus. Israel needs Jesus.

So why do you think that is accomplished by dividing up her land?

Your reasoning is somehow escaping me. I think we're having two different discussions.

Gxg (G²) · #44 24th May 2011, 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by Alpine

Your post encapsulated everything that is bothering me about how many as you put it, make "super humans" out of Jews and spiritualize them, despite the fact a jew is just as human as anyone else and in need of a Savior.

Much of this rampant adulation is a means to an end -- it has nothing to do with the actual jews -- but it has everything to do with a narrow interpretation of prophecy..

I agree with you 100%--and the fact that there are multiple people of Jewish background who've echoed the same is something to keep in mind on the issue. The organization known as "Jews on First" has often critiqued the issue on multiple occassions when it comes to doing what's best for those in Jewish culture...and the dangers that often have come from those having the same mindset as Hagee and other Zionists do does, as seen here.

As said best in their article entitled "John Hagee's Christians United for Israel Conference Mixes End-Times Prophecies With Lobbying":

A conference attendee asked Hagee what he thought about the "Dual Covenant"—the belief that Jews can go to heaven by following the Torah, but non-Jews must convert to Christianity by accepting Jesus at their savior. Hagee insisted that while God had many covenants, there is only one true path to salvation. However, he coyly did not specify this path, leaving audience members to guess what he meant. When asked if he thought Christians should try to convert Jews to Christianity, Hagee insisted that conversion is not CUFI's purpose.

Jews and the Rapture
Hagee's vague assertion that there is only one path to salvation raises serious questions about his support for Israel and the Jewish people. If he believes that salvation can only be achieved in one way, and he loves the Jewish people, then why would he want to keep this path to salvation from them? It is a tough question for most Christians, and perhaps not a fair one to push exclusively on Hagee. But it is difficult to reconcile his love for the Jewish people with his constant emphasis on the Christian path to salvation.

While Hagee admitted that the word "Rapture" does not actually appear in the bible, he assured his audience that believers would be taken to heaven. Hagee said that those "who do not believe in the Rapture -- don't want to believe in the Rapture because they're not ready for it." He referenced two passages in the bible that he said proved his theory of the Rapture. "I assure you it's going to happen," Hagee told the audience. "Ready or not. Get ready. Like it or not, get ready."

It is surprising that Hagee would speak so explicitly about the Rapture, which is intimately intertwined with tribulation theology—specifically pre-tribulation theology. The Rapture makes no sense if you are not actually being raptured from something. And it is this tribulation theology that condemns the Jewish people to one of two fates: they must either convert to Christianity or die in the battle of Armageddon.

Hagee denies the belief that the ingathering of the Jews, the reunification of Jerusalem, and the building of the third temple are part of his theory of the End Times leading to the Rapture because he wants his followers—and critics, for that matter—to not be diverted from the belief that his support for Israel has nothing to do with fulfilling eschatology (end time) hopes. While this is extremely unlikely, it is not completely out of the realm of possibility. That being said, it is at the very least disheartening that the leader of a group that so passionately supports Israel believes in an eschatological system in which the Jewish people have no positive role but only a utilitarian role—especially given Hagee's alleged love and respect for the Jews.

Philo-semitism
The biggest danger behind CUFI's positions on these issues is that they establish a fantasyland in which the Jewish people are placed on a pedestal for Christians to regard with awe. At best, this is a case of philo-semitism, where the Jews are seen as God's chosen people. Because they are above the rest of humanity, they are to be slightly feared and accommodated at any cost. At worst, Hagee and others see the Jews as a means to end. In this line of thinking, the Jewish people are simply part of a holy formula, where they may benefit in this life, but ultimately, the blessing must be passed back to the "blesser" (the Christians). While CUFI's actions may benefit Israel and the Jewish people, these actions are motivated by self-interest. The problem with both of these views is that they create a web of conflicting feelings in which the Jewish people are denied their humanity and their agency.
In the first scenario, they are simply a means to an end and in the second, they are superhuman and consequently not permitted to fail or to be wrong. As if on a pedestal, they are restricted in where they can move and how they can act. Israelis might seek a territorial comprise with the Palestinians but any difficulties or hiccups in the agreement must be understood as God's judgment punishment

Meanwhile many of those with this mindset have hardly had any real interaction with real jewish people. In fact it's very similar to cheering for your favorite sports team. "Go Israel go!" "Go get 'em you're on team God!"

The reality is that Jews need Jesus. Israel needs Jesus.

Good point, as it concerns how many in support of Israel/Jewish culture have never really had any SOLID interaction either with Israelis or Jews.....and on the issue, what's interesting is to consider how those cheering on Israel as if its one whole team don't even realize that there are many who are of Israel...and yet, what others are cheering them on for are things that some Israelis have vehemently denounced/asked that people would stop cheering for.

The fact of the matter is that those in the Israeli State need the Lord...

Alpine · #45 24th May 2011, 12:23 AM

This could prove very hazardous to the health of America...

Our GOD doesn't take a thing like this lightly, and neither should we.
If we are truly in the Word, we know that breaking up her land
brings a curse upon those who those who take part in it.

So why do you think that is accomplished by dividing up her land?

This is based on your questionable interpretation of this scripture. America is in trouble if we do anything that is in your eyes "anti Israel?"

Was America blessed pre 1967? Was America blessed pre 1948? What if Israel as we know it now isn't the Israel of the future in the bible? How do you know?

Also you are making the secular state of Israel into a type of Theocracy aren't you? Do you feel the same way about borders in the USA changing? Did you feel the same sense of anger about the situation in the Nagorno-Karabakh ragion between Armenia and Turkey?

Something tells me that God isn't really interested so much in the imaginary lines we draw up on one side of the street in Jerusalem vs the other side of the street.

I think He might be more interested in the starving, the broken and the lost in this world then an ever changing line we draw on a map.

Does this mean I'm anti Israel? By no means. I love Israel and I am a huge supporter. But Israel is by no means perfect and acting as if it is an affront to God if a line is moved a block really isn't furthering any useful discussions on the subject either.

Alpine · #46 24th May 2011, 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by Easy G (G²)

Good point, as it concerns how many in support of Israel/Jewish culture have never really had any SOLID interaction either with Israelis or Jews.....and on the issue, what's interesting is to consider how those cheering on Israel as if its one whole team don't even realize that there are many who are of Israel...and yet, what others are cheering them on for are things that some Israelis have vehemently denounced/asked that people would stop cheering for.

Very true!

Gxg (G²) · #47 24th May 2011, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by Alpine

Very true!

Concerning the point on how not all things labeled "Israel" are what many Israeli's have been wanting others to cheer for

In example, some who are in Orthodox Judaism, have been more vocal in supporting the right of return for Palestinian Refugees and active protest against the "State of Israel" ..with other groups seeing them for self-imposed isolation (which is particularly the case with ultra-orthodox Jews). They also feel that trying to defend the modern "STATE of Israel" is against what the Lord desires since in their minds the modern state was set up by man rather than the Lord, who said that He would establish his people when they returned to Him in worship. They feel that the Jewish people were meant to remain in exile---and therefore, trying to force a homeland is destined to bring God's judgement (in their view) just as trying to have a nation without God led to their being exiled many times before----be it with the Babylonian exile or the exile after the Second Temple and 70 A.D. The group I'm discussing is known as Neturei Karta . Guided by the rabbis of our time and under the inspiring leadership of the late Reb Amram Blau, the Neturei Karta refuse to recognize the right of anyone to establish a "Jewish" state during the present period of exile...and they vehemently condemn Zionism.

For others groups, they advocate that the State of Israel needs to survive--with it being seen as no different than how the U.S. got off to a bumby start with Blacks/Slaves and Native Americans and yet other oppressed peoples felt that there was no need for them to leave the country. For they had been used to found it and they were going to therefore deal with things where they were at, fighting to have justice/equality after the fact. For many, dismantiling Israel would mean that many others would suffer greatly--and therefore, things should be done to stabilize the situation for all. Those groups specifically believe that Israel needs to be expanded/remodled in order for the Palestinians and Jews to live together. Rabbi Michael Lerner has been of this mindset for some time, as well as the organization of "Tikkun".

For more, one can look up the following:

There are dozens of other groups out there on the issue from true JEWISH believers that understand the realtiy of the "political" Israel not being true Israel. ..and they've sought to make that very clear on a host of issues. And for ones to look up:

Jews Not Zionists
Torah-true Jews against Zionism. In their words, "Any form of Zionism is heresy from the Torah viewpoint and the so-called 'State of Israel' is illegitimate. Menu includes links and quotes to Anti-Zionist Jewish organizations and statements, and the wisdom of Judaism on the Middle East Quandary.."

The Israeli Refuser Movement /Refusing For Israel
The movement for soldiers of the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) refusing to serve in the Occupied Territories

Some of this was discussed more in-depth in other threads over in the Messianic Jewish forums, as seen in #14 #19 and #23. Over there, at one point I sought to discuss an excellent book on the issue I've read entitled " Blood Brothers , by a man known as Elias Chacour. For a brief description of the book, here's what one reviewer noted:

In Blood Brothers, Chacour blends his riveting life story with historical research to reveal a little-known side of the Arab-Israeli conflict and the birth of modern Israel. He touches on controversial questions such as: " What behind-the-scenes politics touched off the turmoil in the Middle East? " What does Bible prophecy really have to say? " Can bitter enemies ever be reconciled? In a world of tension and terror, this book offers hope and insight that can help each of us learn to live at peace

The book was something I went in-depth about in one of the threads I made on the issues of Zionism....as seen in a discussion thread I made at CARM entitled Is Christian Zionism Compatible with Messianic Judaism...or considerate of Non-Jews? . The book "Blood Brothers" really serves to show how amazing it is to witness how much of the perspective is left out since all are focused on what Israel is dealing with now----nevermind how much UNRIGHTEOUSNESS it was founded in, with one persecuted group becoming the persecutors. It has been nothing short of amazing reading the book/checking the documentation....and seeing what went down for many Arabic Believers/Jewish believers alike (as many Jewish believers were persecuted/killed by the Zionist Army controlling the State of Israel for supporting Palestinians in giving them jobs)......and the author, who's a Palestinian Christian, astounded me with his deep love for Palestinians and Jews alike. One can go online/look up the man at "Voices for Palestine" ) .

There are many within/outside of the State of Israel that feel some of the ways Zionists built it seems to have inherent a design that was meant to produce fighting...and set up to keep people in continual warfare while dividing them long enough for others on the outside to have their way. This is not to say that a homeland for Jewish people is not uncessary---but it is mentioned to indicate that not all of those who helped in its creation did so for noble purposes. Some of this was discussed more in-depth elsewhere as seen in #14 #19 and #23. I have also sought to deal with the issue of how even within the Israeli State, much of the nation is nowhere near concerned with seeking or serving the Lord---and that goes directly counter to what the Lord said his standards were for His people being able to trust Him for security.
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I'm for the mindset that believers should support those in Israel currently--but I do think that many times we forget who true Israel is....and forget that not everything about Israel SHOULD be supported if it goes counter to the Word. Its because of that reason that many of the uncessary battles/wars in the Middle East/Arabi-Israeli conflicts have occurred and lives have been sacrificed. Some of this has been discussed in greater depth elsewhere ( i.e. #18 , here, here, here and here , here , here , here and here. ), as it concerns the subject of Jewish Nationalism and views on the State of Israel/its treatment of others.

For its interesting to see what occurred with the development of the Israeli State since many Jews did not want to leave where they were at---and hated the means that were being used to establish a "homeland" for them, only to have to be "forced"/"ousted out of their homes when situations were created that caused hatred to rise. Many African Jews may have been told that they were "home"--but for many of them, it was nothing short of the beginning of another African diaspora/time of DISPLACEMENT......and its often an odd thing to witness those for Judaism or Messianic Judaism discuss the issue of Arab Nationalism and yet ignore how even those who are within the State of Israel are not treated on the same levels as other Israelis. Some are treated as second-class, whereas others who have not even had anything against the State of Israel are still persecuted simply because they are Arab. For more on the issue of other people groups grossly mistreated by the Jews, one can go here to this study on the Arab-Israeli conflict over land/what happened historically with it. One other place worth investigating is [PDF] The “Ishmael Promise , as it concerns the promises given to those of Arabic descent.

Not many are willing to consider how many Arabs/Palestinians have been murdered by those in Israel since the Occupation....and even for those saying that acknowledging such means one doesn't "support Israel", again, the reality is that many Jews have noted how they disagree with the State of Israel even being in existence. Some feel that the actions of the Jews will inevitably bring the Judgement of the Lord upon Israel, just as has occurred before.

Gxg (G²) · #48 24th May 2011, 01:02 AM

Originally Posted by Alpine

Much of this rampant adulation is a means to an end -- it has nothing to do with the actual jews -- but it has everything to do with a narrow interpretation of prophecy.

Meanwhile many of those with this mindset have hardly had any real interaction with real jewish people. In fact it's very similar to cheering for your favorite sports team. "Go Israel go!" "Go get 'em you're on team God!"

The reality is that Jews need Jesus. Israel needs Jesus.

On what you noted, I think those with a Hagee-esque mindset toward Israel often base their actions on what seems to be a false interpretation of scripture that the Jews and all within Judaism can be saved apart from Jesus...and that in fact, based on Romans 11, it was destined for them to do so for a time. However, Dr.Michael Brown actually came out with an article dealing with the issue...refuting the premise that Jews can make it to eternity with God simply by trying to follow the Mosaic Law. For more, one can go see the article entitled "Sid Roth - It's Supernatural Messianic Vision: Is There Serious Error in the New Book, "In Defense of Israel?". One can also go online to his main website of "Ask Dr.Brown" in the Resources/Articles section...as he also spoke on the issue of how all Israel will be saved.....

For others to consider, one can also go online/consider looking up an article entitled "Moriel Archive » » John Hagee's “In Defense of Israel” " ( )

They've done an excellent job discussing the reality that not all things should be celebrated in the name of Israel---especially when it comes to avoiding critique...

On Israel needing Jesus, it is interesting to consider that very point, as it concerns the subject of how many Messianic Jews who've been perseucted in great numbers by those in Israel have noted that its not as if Israel should be supported in all things. I don't think its something that should ever be supported AT ALL since the Lord didn't support it in the days when Israel was a nation in the OT. He actually kicked his people out for that and warned against having any kind of false security on the matter.

For a good article on the issue, one can go here:

Hate-fest against Messianic Jews in Ashdod « The Rosh Pina Project

On the ministry itself that the article is based upon, the Rosh Pina Project is an online meeting place for Messianic Jews and all those who believe that Messianic Jews deserve fair treatment in Israel and the Diaspora, and protection as a religious minority in Israel. The Rosh Pina Project is focused upon highlighting the persecution of Messianic Jews in Israel, unfair treatment of Messianic Jews in the mainstream media, post cultural and political reviews. It has been very interesting to examine in action.

On CARM, here's something that one of my brothers in the Lord noted elsewhere when it came to debating the issue among other Messianic Jews:

In Romans 11:7, we read, "What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened" (ESV). From the way the words Israel and elect are used, we see the importance of context. Taken out of context, this verse could mean that all Israel is non-elect. We know better, though, because Paul identified himself as "an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin" (11:1). He then added, "God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew" (11:2)--an allusion to Romans 8:29. All this jibes with Romans 9:6-12, where Paul showed that "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring. ... This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring" (9:7-8).

In Romans 11:11, Paul states: "So I ask, did they [hardened Israel] stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous" (ESV). Here I think Paul is showing that Israel's fall opened the door for the gospel to spread to the Gentiles more freely. Worldwide evangelism, not Israel's fall itself, was the purpose to Israel's fall. Paul adds, however, that Israel's full inclusion (verse 12) would bring much greater riches to the Gentiles. To me, such a statement means that God would use believing Israel so much that even more Gentiles would be reached and blessed. We're seeing some of this blessing now, I think, in the ministries of Jewish believers such as Dr. Michael Brown, Dr. David Stern, Jonathan Bernis, and Joel Chernoff, to name a few. The more Jewish believers there are, the greater this blessing will be.

As to Romans 11:28-31, we see that God intends for Gentile believers to show mercy by helping and evangelizing the Jews. This, however, is a bit different from deciding how to treat the nation Israel, which consists mostly of unbelievers who persecute believers (Messianic Jews and Christian Arabs). Realizing that believers are counted as children of the promise and as Abraham's seed, we must be ever mindful of them and their needs, and we must stand up for them even when that entails criticizing the nation Israel. In making such a statement, I'm not advocating the abandonment of Israel. Rather, I think we're overlooking the plight of believers. Pro-Arab ministries focus on the needs of Muslim Arabs, not Christian ones. Pro-Zion ministries focus on the needs of non-Messianic Jews, not Messianic ones. As to helping Yeshua's brethren, let's remember that what we do or fail to do to the least of his brethren, we do or fail to do to him (Matthew 25:40, 45)

I've nowhere suggested abandoning the nation of Israel, nor have I advocated treating unbelieving Jewish people less courteously and less charitably than unbelieving Gentiles, who also need evangelizing. What I've done is speak up for God's elect, the Messianic Jews and Christian Arabs who are being persecuted and discriminated against by the government of Israel and by the governments of surrounding Muslim nations. I have two questions for you: (1) Where does the Bible predict that God would return the Jewish people to the Promised Land in unbelief even though their unbelief is why they were exiled? (2) Why do you ignore the possibility that Messianic Jews' desire to live in Israel is a work of God and a fulfillment of prophecy?

I don't know about you; but when I see Messianic Jews being barred from the land by unbelieving apostates, I'm siding with the Messianics, whose faith is a sign of their status as God's elect or chosen people.

As to the unbelieving, unrepentant, unregenerate Jews' return to Israel in 1948, we have no proof that it was a fulfillment of any prophecy in the TaNaKH. Surely, our sovereign Lord sets up and puts down kingdoms wherever he wills; so we must rely on his word and his Holy Spirit's guidance to help us know what to make of world events. His Torah makes it clear that his exiled people had to repent in order to be returned:

“And when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the Lord your God has driven you, 2 and return to the Lord your God, you and your children, and obey his voice in all that I command you today, with all your heart and with all your soul, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you, and he will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you. 4 If your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of heaven, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there he will take you. 5 And the Lord your God will bring you into the land that your fathers possessed, that you may possess it. And he will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. 6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live" (Deuteronomy 30:1-6 English Standard Version).

Nehemiah evidently understood this, for he prayed: “O Lord God of heaven, the great and awesome God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, 6 let your ear be attentive and your eyes open, to hear the prayer of your servant that I now pray before you day and night for the people of Israel your servants, confessing the sins of the people of Israel, which we have sinned against you. Even I and my father's house have sinned. 7 We have acted very corruptly against you and have not kept the commandments, the statutes, and the rules that you commanded your servant Moses. 8 Remember the word that you commanded your servant Moses, saying, ‘If you are unfaithful, I will scatter you among the peoples, 9 but if you return to me and keep my commandments and do them, though your dispersed be under the farthest skies, I will gather them from there and bring them to the place that I have chosen, to make my name dwell there’" (Nehemiah 1:5-9 ESV).

In quoting Moses and Nehemiah, I've furnished the two witnesses necessary to prove my point.

The idea that God would return the Jews to Israel in unbelief is not of Jewish origin. It's from goyim ensnared by the race-based eschatology known as dispensationalism. How many Yeshua-rejecting Israelis do you think consider themselves to have been returned in unbelief? They consider their return a sign of God's favor and forgiveness--a sign that they're fine without Yeshua. They see nothing wrong with their faith and probably consider dispensationalism insulting.

Because Paul told the unbelieving Jews of his day that "God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance" (Romans 2:4 ESV), I've tried to be an instrument of God's kindness toward Israel. I'm concerned, though, that Messianic Jews are being barred from returning although they meet all the citizenship requirements (e.g., Jewish mother). What should we do when Messianic Jews who meet the requirements for return in Deuteronomy 30:1-6 are persecuted by Israelis who don't? I can't turn my back on Yeshua's brethren, nor can I help sensing that Messianics' desire to return could be even more important prophetically than the nation of Israel's rebirth in 1948.

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Gxg (G²) · #49 24th May 2011, 01:09 AM

Originally Posted by Alpine

Much of this rampant adulation is a means to an end -- it has nothing to do with the actual jews -- but it has everything to do with a narrow interpretation of prophecy.

Meanwhile many of those with this mindset have hardly had any real interaction with real jewish people. In fact it's very similar to cheering for your favorite sports team. "Go Israel go!" "Go get 'em you're on team God!"

The reality is that Jews need Jesus. Israel needs Jesus.

Ultimately, it all comes down to whether or not people are for Yeshua...and on what He noted, the reality is that the Lord wished to use His Chosen People to reflect Him. So long as they don't do that, just as in the OT when the Lord denounced his people, there's no other choice but to critique the State of Israel where it errs. Jewish people, alongside Israelis that're not Jewish, have long been noting that same point for a long time. There can be no active support of all things done in the name of "Praying for, Supportinng and Blessing Israel" (Psalm 122)--including those things that are DIRECTLY counter to how Christ has commanded his followers to act....as well as how the TORAH itself has commanded us to act. Most people today seem no different in their actions as those supporting the Crusades, where pillaging/plundering of others in the Holy Land...murder...prejudice toward Non-Jewish believers AND Jewish believers..........ignoring those caught in the cross-fire of others trying to "conqer Jerusalem" for Christ by the sword, despite how Christ warned AGAIST IT/Made clear how we're to treat enemies.

Some who are Zionists Jews agree with those who disagree that the State of Israel is Israel---and in their minds, they don't disagree that Yeshua will setup the real Israel, but still feel God can use secular empires or other nations to establish His will, for example Nebachunezzar... Or the King of Persia, etc. With that sentiment, I can more than see...and I'd argue that in many ways God is using the state of Israel for many of His purposes just as He used various other institutions that became corrupted--from the many empires using the teachings of Christ in a perverted manner, as what often happened during Colonialism (i.e. the British Empire toward Indigenious peoples, the U.S in relations to how it treated Native Americans, The Spainards with the Americas. The Crusades, The Slave Trade, etc) to the Communist Regime in China and other times.

Where I think we need to be careful is where others do in saying that a nation claiming to be ordained by God is automatcally blessed of God. The way many operate, its no different than what went down with the Manifest Destiny when the U.S said it was their "God ordained destiny to spread from the East Coast to the West Coast"....

For those who don't appreciate Jewish believers saying the Israeli state was never designed by the Lord, some may consider Jeremiah 31:35-37, which states that Read the seed of Jacob will not cease to be a NATION before God

However, again, who in the NT qualifies as the Seed of Jacob? As it stands, the scripture in its ENTIRETY deals with the NEW COVENANT....which will provide a fresh start for Israel and Judah, the recipents of both the old and now the new covenant (though many interpret the new covenant as beginning entirely with the Jews but going on to include the Gentiles). This passage of scriptue is the only one that speaks of a new covenant...with the phrase being seen in Luke 22:20, II Corinthins 3:6 and Hebrews 8:8-12.

Verses 35-37 of Jeremiah 31 deal with the reality that God gives a fixed order to the natural creation===and it is just as impossible for the new covenant to cease as it is for the natural order to cease. It is unfathomable to think that God would cast off the Israel of this NEW COVENANT, just as verse 34 of Jermiah 31 makes clear that the full extent of creation is unfathomable. If reading the REST of the passage in Jeremiah 31, one would notice that verses 38-40 make clear that Jerusalem would soon be destroyed...and yet God will rebuild it eventually.

When it is totally sacred to the Lord (Zech 14:20-21), IT WILL NOT BE UPROOOTED or OVERTHROWN anymore forever....and at that time, it will be ZION, the NEW JERUSALM...the city where God lives with his people in the permanet abscence of sin.

One can go to Hebrews 12:18-29 and Revelation 21 to see it plain as day....as well as Galatians 4.

Christ will come/reign in the present city of Jerusalem at some point prior anyhow. How one views Revelation 20-21----which mirrors the passage in Jeremiah---makes a great deal of difference. Some are for the Preemillennialist view, saying Christ will return prior to the millennuim and later reign as a physicall present king with his believers. Others are for the Postmillennialist view that think before Christ returns to earth, the Gospel will so powerfully spread/triumph that societies will be transformed---and peace/justice will reign for a thousand years.

But both views seem to negate the argument that the Jeremiah passage refers today to the present physical State of Israel & justification for all of its actions done in "the name of God/the right to the land." The millennial kingdom will be a matter of Christ coming back to set things in order rather than a justification of all the things done in the name of trying to establish "order"..and it doesn't seem in scripture that any basis can be given for saying one needs to ensure the land is given to only Israelite descendants before Christ comes....by "any means necessary." Too much blood that has been shed in the process...

For me personally, it already seems clear in the Word that much of the fighting over who owns "Jerusalem" is fultile since God made clear that it was a physical type of a spiritual reality...as the land given to Israel was never intended to be an end in itself since it pointed to something better in the future. It is only in this light that the "promised land" must be evaluated. The land given to Israel was never intended to be an end in itself. It pointed to something better in the future.

Even Abraham who received the promises did not focus on earthly geography, but rather on a "better country - a heavenly one. . . whose architect and builder is God" (Heb.11:10 and Hebrews 11:6). For believers, Hebrews 13:14 makes clear that we are strangers in this world simply passing through (with Peter 1:11 echoing the same thoughts)...with no city as our own...as the world is a mere temporary dwelling en route to an eternal abode...as Hebrews 12:22-24 makes clear. Hebrews 12:22-24 draws on extensive OT Imagery of a new heavenly Zion/Jerusalem (e.g., Psalm 2:6, Psalm 110:2, Isaiah 62:6-12, Revelation 21:1-22:5) to say that disciples have access to, in the invisible, spiritual realm, into the heavenly Jerusalem..and therefore participate in worship with unnumerable angels.

Never was it seen in the early church, to my knowledge, of the disciples seeking to fight for the current Jerusalem as if God said it was their mandate for them to maintain it at all costs----whether it was after there was persecution against the church & they were scattered across the world from Jerusalem (Acts 8:4-8) or later when times of peace for Jerusalem came in Acts 9:26-31. Only those who were Jewish Nationalists or Zealots were for that kind of mindset...something which led to full out rebellion at one point against Rome.

I'm also reminded of how Paul said in Galatians 4:24 that the promises of Abraham, Issac and Ishmael can be interpreted allegorically----as the city of Jerusalem ought to be the capital city of the "Israel of God"---but instead remains a stronghold of Israel according to the flesh (i.e. Jews who have not turned to Jesus). As a result, the city is just as it was occupied in Isaiah's day--enslaved. Galatians 4:26-27 seems to make clear that all of those who believe in Christ belong to the heavenly Jerusalem and are the true Israel.....and as Isaiah prophesied in Isaiah 54:1, the exile did not spell the end of the people of God. For God will work again supernaturally to bring about the new birth of children where there are none, even among the Gentiles.

This seems to be a good mirror for the current situation today in the Middle East------as throughout history, people have focused on the physical city of Jerusalem/land of Israel as if that was the Goal....and not realizing that fighting over it was a form of slavery, as the present Jerusalem cannot compare to the heavenly one we now have immediate access to.

There has been much destruction that has occurred as a result of what has been going down in Israel---and since the days of its founding, many have been of the mindset that it couldn't be of the Lord seeing all of the destruction that has followed. For in 1948, what happened for many was a forcible "kicking out" of those who already lived there/chose NOT to leave during the conflict. For in 1947, after the British turned over their control of Palestine to the newly-formed United Nations Organization, the U.N. later partitioned off a small portion of the land for the Jews in November of 1947..and as the British withdrew in 1948, armed groups of Zionists forced thousands of Arabs to leave their homes. In the midst of this conflict there was a declaration of the State of Israel on May 14, 1948.

For those who did leave, it was nothing short of what the American Indians expericenced during the "Trail of Tears" with the FORCED Relocation of them to Oklahoma Reservations....taking them from the land they were already living on. Others who left prior to the conflict did so for the sake of safety of their loved ones. To make them pay to get back in is ludicrious, as it'd be no different than what happened during Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans, as many fled to avoid the storm/protect their loved ones---and yet, due to not being able to come back because their homes were flooded, they had to pay money to give up their homes. If they wanted to move back, Mortage Companies who bought up the abandoned communities made them pay extra just to get back in.........but that's essentially extortion since people fled out of NECESSITY rather than for the heck of it...

Same thing when it comes to fleeing your home if there's a Gang War going on in the neighborhood between the existing neighbors/land lords of the area and a new faction moving in......only to drive back in/find out YOUR house was sold off because you were seeking to walk in wisdom....or doing institutional/community oppression of your family because you did not agree with how the new "home owners club"/regime began or supported it in all of its actions. It's no different in the larger scheme of a nation's politics....for if a newly established nation is going to punish me for not fighting for all aspects of it, it was never legit to begin with...or worth fighting for.

God is Good...

Gxg (G²) · #50 24th May 2011, 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by Alpine

My opinion: Let's stop spiritualizing everything and get real. The Palestinian problem isn't going to go away and Israel is not the holy perfect nation many of us like to peg them as.
.

I think that what makes a big difference is what specific train of thought one comes from in studying history...for that makes a difference on interpretation.

From what I understand, beofre the founding of Israel in 1948, there were Jews and Palestinians doing well together in the land before the ones for Zionism came over...in the wake of the British leaving the nation into their hands (despite previous promises to initially have a "Mandate Government" that was to be established to help to people become self-sufficient and in time gradually leave away). Many of the Zionists had divisions amongst themselves on the issue that it would be nice for the Jews to have a homeland---but that the place, Palestine, was debated because it was unethical to try and "colonize" a land with people living in it already peacefully....with the only option being violent takeover.

Many JEWS VEHEMENTLY complained about the development of the State of Israel----as in the tatics they used/how they labeled the Palestinians as "*****"/proclaimed it was justified in the name of the land being there's....with many Palestinians told to leave their homes for their "protection" from enemies....only to have them come back/find their homes destroyed...and many killed for protesting/appealing to government.

They were forced to pay to live in their own homes---with many of them having to come back for meger work since the landlords coming in were not used to the argicultural culture that happened. When they complained, it was portrayed to the public that they were the "terrorists" and the Israeli govermnent had to put them in place....and many other attrocities were done besides that. The Zionist Government/Military---including the group known as Ingrun----did many evils in the name of "defending Jews"....

It cannot be said enough that the way they went about establishing the nation was far from godly...with it hardly being a minority issue, as it concerns influence from the milatry to the government.

God has spoken vehemently on that in the scriptures.....and ironically, for others saying all of its justified since its an issue of making clear "who the land belongs to"---even though God made clear in Leviticus 25:23 that "the land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants"......with God making clear how others were to act on his property, from the way they conducted their government down to the use of fair weights/measures in the marketplaces.

With the Diaspora, as many Jews have noted, Ezekiel 36:23 makes clear that God's true purpose in regathering Israel was to demonstrate to the world that He is holy/wants a holy nation. The entire book of Isaiah rings with the same message...that God would comfort the Israelities by delivering them from their persecutors among the nation and require them to live up to a high callng. They were not to exhibit a form of outward religiosity and then behave like any other nation. Even while promising to rescue them once again, God Himself denounced their old ways saying:

Isaiah 5:7
The vineyard of the LORD Almighty
is the house of Israel,
and the men of Judah
are the garden of his delight.
And he looked for justice, but saw bloodshed;
for righteousness, but heard cries of distress.

This is the central issue why many have a significant problem with the present State of Israel/others saying that all they do should be supported. For in many things, justice is not being pursued...nor is addressment of injustice acknowledged when it concerns the founding of the nation. Isaiah prophesied that God would not merely bring the Jews together again in a typical, secular state. He said in Isaiah 11:12 that " He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth."

After the founding of the nation in 1948, there would be some in the coming years popularizing the interpretation of prophecy, writing books and claiming that since Israel was now in its rightful place, all was in readiness for the Second Coming of Christ. But, IMHO, that's an incomplete view. of prophecy....as God made amply clear in Isaiah that He was requiring a true change of heart in the Jewish people, a change in their traditional exclusiveness which caused them to believe that they alone were God's favored ones.

Isaiah 56
Salvation for Others
1 This is what the LORD says:
"Maintain justice
and do what is right,
for my salvation is close at hand
and my righteousness will soon be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
the man who holds it fast,
who keeps the Sabbath without desecrating it,
and keeps his hand from doing any evil."

3 Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the LORD say,
"The LORD will surely exclude me from his people."
And let not any eunuch complain,
"I am only a dry tree."

4 For this is what the LORD says:
"To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose what pleases me
and hold fast to my covenant-

5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls
a memorial and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
that will not be cut off.

6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD
to serve him,
to love the name of the LORD,
and to worship him,
all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
and who hold fast to my covenant-

7 these I will bring to my holy mountain
and give them joy in my house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations."

8 The Sovereign LORD declares—
he who gathers the exiles of Israel:
"I will gather still others to them
besides those already gathered."

It was already mentioned earlier how many are treated as "Second Class" citizens in Israel----from the Ethopian Jews to the Palestinians.....and there are many matters of injustice that have gone down. Some of the ways in which those injustices have been allowed simply because many things are "different today" than before is similar to what many in the U.S do when it comes to addressing the consequences of Segregation in Schools/Slavery...with people saying "But we're all equal now" despite how many economic conditions like the ghetto/slums, schools lacking significant/updated resources for students, or confiscated/"stolen" land from black landowners during the Reconstruction period.. were created by those old policies.....and still ignored today when others are demanding justice on the issue.

If one's playing Football unfairly for the first half of the game, scoring 20 points to Zero, and then say "Now, we're going to play fair" for the latter half, its illogical to say "Why are you mad? We're playing fair!!!!"/get upset with the losing team when they're complaining that they've been set behind....but in many ways, thats what the U.S has done to blacks when it comes to many issues. The same has occurred in Israeli politics when it comes to who's in the majority today /many of the justifications on mistreatments toward Non-Jewish in the land.....with many of the Jews/Palestinians complaining of how they got along before 1948 and saying its not right to have annexation of land from other Arab believers taken and then saying "Move on.."

The New Israel---as God always intended it---was to be a banner of justice for ALL NATIONS of the world...and God's Israel included "foreigners", those who were not of the fleshly tribes of Israel...and who'd be treated with dignity, as well as treating others with dignity.

As Elias Chacour, author of "Blood Brothers", said best on the matter:

“ You who live in the United States, if you are pro-Israel, on behalf of the Palestinian children I call unto you: give further friendship to Israel. They need your friendship. But stop interpreting that friendship as an automatic antipathy against me, the Palestinian who is paying the bill for what others have done against my beloved Jewish brothers and sisters in the Holocaust and Auschwitz and elsewhere.

And if you have been enlightened enough to take the side of the Palestinians -- oh, bless your hearts -- take our sides, because for once you will be on the right side, right? But if taking our side would mean to become one-sided against my Jewish brothers and sisters, back up. We do not need such friendship. We need one more common friend. We do not need one more enemy, for God's sake.

Just in case I'm misread, I wanted to be clear that in what I'm saying, I'm not of the mindset that one should simply ABANDON Israel. Regardless of whatever wrongs may've gone down in its founding, it is what it is. We're at where we are now--and thus, the people within need to build from there...with us praying dilligently. Also, in one of the comments I shared from other Messianic Jewish conversation, it was noted that the Jews returning in "disbelief" was not Biblical. On that, I wanted to say that I didn't agree with that specific aspect......for I do believe that its biblical to say the Jews will return in disbelief.

No one denies that there must be an Israel. What is of note, however, is how that will come about.

Being in unbelief does not equate automatically to being in a state of violence/war----just as others in a state of disbelief (such as agnostics or atheists..or those not truly living for God) in God does not mean that they are in the mindset of the same degree of disbelief as one who is a rapist or a muderer.

It is possible that the land having others come back to it in disbelief has not been seen yet and was never intended to have others come back to it in the way/manner in which the nation has been established. On the issue, one view that comes to mind is what the scriptures also discuss---in line with the reality of multiple gatherings--that there are many for the view of 2 worldwide gatherings that believe the present state of Israel is in no way a fulfillment of those prophecies that speak of a worldwide regathering in faith in preparation for blessing...but rather a fulfillment of those prophecies that speak of a worldwide regathering in unbelief in preparation for judgement. Ariel Ministries discussed it best, IMHO, as seen in their article entitled THE MODERN STATE OF ISRAEL IN BIBLE PROPHECY.....concerning the passages of scripture that deal with the issue.

This is something that is often forgotten when it comes to what the Word says on establishing Israel---for as mentioned before, God in prophetic texts also made clear He would have the Jews come back in RIGHTEOUSNESS. Isaiah is often forgotten on the issue...as it relates to the call of "Practice Justice and Righteousness in the Land and then you will have peace..".

When God says THOSE truly represnting his holiness are those that treat foreigners in the land with JUSTICE/Graciousness (Deuteronomy 24:17)--to treat others without partiality (Deut 16:19) and many other passages on the issue of widows/orphans and dealing properly with the oppressed in the Torah---there's no reason to act as if its uncertain as to who represents Him. God went out of his way in the Torah to give instructions on how to identify who was and wasn't for Hi------and to let the nation know what actions would be going on that grieved Him, as well as what would happen if it continued. With that said, as many Jews (Especially Orthodox Ones) have said for decades, one cannot look at much of the actions of the State of Israel and say that they are in line with God's standards/not subject to judgement.

God cannot dwell with sin, Psalm 5...and His glory left Israel for that very reason, with Him saying to stop expecting His return to it without it first being corrected severely/having true repentance before He could live among them.

On the issue, people often forget about Isaiah 57:19---quoted in Ephesians 2:17-18 when it comes to the issue of Jew/Gentiles. As other Messianic Jewish scholars have made clear---notably, Dr.Michael Brown (whom I lean toward), Isaiah 57:19 could be understood as referring to the scattered seed of Israel as those "who were far way."..but not long before this passage God had promised that HIS HOUSE would be for foreigners too----as seen in Isaiah 56:3-8.....and this text thus fittingly expresses Paul's point concerning the UNITY of Jew and Gentile in the new temple (see also Acts 2:39). And on the issue, its intriguing to see that Paul brought up the reference since Paul wrote the letter from Prison after being falsely charged with taking a non-Jew inside the temple in Jerusalem (Acts 21:28). Taking a non-Jew beyond a paticular dividing point in the temple was such an important breach of Jewish law that the Romans even permitted the Jewish leaders to execute violaters of this law. Paul's readers in Ephesus and Asia undoubtedly know why Paul's in prison (Acts 21:27-29), thus for them, as well as for Paul, there can be no greater symbol of the barrier between Jew and Non-Jew than "the Dividing Wall" of verse 14 in Ephesians.