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  #141  
Old 26th May 2011, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Tamara224 View Post
That's not unusual, Pete. Most criminal matters don't find their way to the internet. News stories that do find their way to the internet don't always stay online forever.
True enough, though I also have to wonder why an incident that apparently occurred in November 2003 only garnered any attention 6 years later.

And I think I'd have to disagree that most criminal matters don't find their way to the Internet. With more and more local newspapers online these days, you can find news from just about anywhere.

Also, with the high profile of Saddleback, I find it amazing that no national media outlets reported on this at all.

Originally Posted by Tamara224 View Post
Although court files are usually public record, they're not generally accessible - even if they are in electronic form (which most aren't) - to the general public. Someone would have to go to the court where he was charged and, at this point, root through their archives to find the evidence. The court file may or may not even have a transcript of the trial - if one was held. Probably the only thing contained in the court file at this point is the charging documents, police affidavit or grand jury transcript, and a judgment and sentence.

If he appealed his conviction, I can't find any record of it (and I probably would if he had).
I'll have to defer to your legal expertise here.

Originally Posted by Tamara224 View Post
Information age or not, someone has to put the info on the internet. Just because no one thought it necessary or took the time to report about this on the net, doesn't mean it didn't happen. IMHO, it doesn't even make it less likely to have happened. It's just unfortunate for us that no one closer to the events thought to put facts on the net so us arm-chair family law judges could know what happened.

Hundreds of such cases go unreported every day. The media has lots of reasons for why they choose which stories to report and which not to. We cannot assume that just because they didn't report it, it is suspect.
We'll have to disagree here also. I can't open the Google news page without reading what Lindsay Lohan had for lunch today. Therefore, I do indeed find it at least a little suspect that Rick Warren and Saddleback church, one of the largest and most well known churches in the country, allegedly condoned the abuse of this woman and not a single media outlet deemed it important enough to cover.

Originally Posted by Tamara224 View Post
Besides, it's a very subjective thing.... what the Christian community considers "big news" may not even be a blip on the radar to secular media outlets.
That's true, but the secular media loves to report on the Christian community when it's all about scandal.

Originally Posted by Tamara224 View Post
Well, the weight you give to the evidence is certainly yours to determine. That's part of making a judgment - deciding which evidence is more or less credible or weighty.

The way I see it is this: At least one of the blogs was an interview of the woman in question. I have no grounds to believe that the interview was a fake, that it wasn't really the woman in question, or that she was lying. Nothing in the interview itself raised any red flags of credibility for me.
It did for me. For example, when Ms. Ferber was talking about her ex-husband's first wife in the interview, she mentioned her only as "Angela". There is no way to confirm what she said. It's all just taken at face value with no verification whatsoever.

Also, Momlogic seemed to ask leading questions in their interview. For example, they asked "Please explain how you felt, to be not only abused by your spouse, but abused by your church?", yet Ms. Ferber to this point in the interview had not mentioned being abused by the church. It seems Momlogic had an agenda in their interview, and was not very objective, IMHO.

Originally Posted by Tamara224 View Post
It's not sworn testimony, which I would of course prefer, but it is testimony. And testimony counts as evidence. Direct evidence (as opposed to circumstantial).

In the court of public opinion, and forum discussions, and as far as living my life day to day, I'm comfortable making a judgment call from what I do know.
Obviously, I'm not.

Originally Posted by Tamara224 View Post
The burden of proof is much lower on the internet.
Unfortunately, that's true, which accounts for tons of misinformation, urban myths and more to be promulgated as fact every day in our email inboxes.

Originally Posted by Tamara224 View Post
I understand that and do not fault you, or Jimbo, for it.
Nor do I fault you for accepting her testimony at face value. I just wanted to explain why I remain skeptical.

Originally Posted by Tamara224 View Post
That being said...... I would like to ask you the same hypo I asked Jim.... because I'm curious as to your response.

If the facts as stated are indeed true - just assume they are for a moment - then would the church leaders have acted wrongly in giving the man a leadership position? IYO.
If the fact was that the man was actively and physically abusive to his wife, was unrelenting and unrepentant and the church knew about it, then I believe it would definitely be wrong to place him in a leadership position.

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  #142  
Old 26th May 2011, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Simon Peter View Post
Here's a detailed account of the story, with photograph and names, from a Christian news source:

A Look at Saddleback's Position on Domestic Violence from a Former Member - BCNN1
Thank you!

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  #143  
Old 26th May 2011, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Simon Peter View Post
Here's a detailed account of the story, with photograph and names, from a Christian news source:

A Look at Saddleback's Position on Domestic Violence from a Former Member - BCNN1

Hmmm.... at closer look, that's merely an exact reprint of the article from "Double X" I linked earlier in the thread. That's not from a Christian news source after all.

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  #144  
Old 26th May 2011, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by probinson View Post
Hmmm.... at closer look, that's merely an exact reprint of the article from "Double X" I linked earlier in the thread. That's not from a Christian news source after all.
The article I linked is posted on a Christian news site.

The source they reference is 'Double X', which may well be a sudonym for 'Sheri Ferber'? It's not unusual for news organizations to keep sources anonymous.
If the source was cited as 'Deep Throat', would you immediately discount its veracity?

If 'Double X' is Sheri Ferber, I suspect she may be in a similar position as Andrew Wommack's ex-daughter-in-law, who also says she was beaten by her husband (Andrew Wommack's son), and that the Wommacks and their ministry covered it up and failed to support her.

I imagine it would be frustrating to be a victim of abuse and watch a church or ministry - and other Christians - defend your abuser. One outlet for these victims is to post their experiences and story online, to try and expose the injustice.

Wommack's ex-daughter in-law called herself "Anonymous" even though she identified herself as the former husband of Jonathan Peter Wommack. Could be a similar situation with "Double X"?

Here's what she said:

I am Andrew and Jamie Wommacks ex daughter in-law, and I can tell you first hand the hypocrisies that man teaches with his wife by his side, they profess to know and teach God's love, but bear false witness against their neighbor in court.

Their son Jonathan Peter is currently serving time in El paso county jail for beating me. Thru out my marriage into that family, I confessed to not only Andrew but Jamie about the physical abuse, the emotional blackmail, the pain I was to endure at the hands of their son, whom they are well aware of his violence, he actually put a gun to his own mother's head and burglarized her home, but instead of showing GOD'S unconditional love to me, they blamed me for his actions. Never acknowledging what he was doing, never helping, never offering to take their son aside, knowing that this treatment is not what God would want. Both of their sons have committed acts of domestic violence, and have had to serve time for it. I guess they learned it somewhere, I suppose Andrew taught his sons how to abuse women, and Jamie showed her sons, it was ok to be a battered wife. How very Christ like!!?!?!?!?!

I begged that man and his wife to help me, they instead went against God's word and although they know their son is not a Christian they lie to their ENTIRE ministry that he is a testament of faith, how God raised him from the dead because of some unknown prophecy Andrew has had about his son.

The very statement of faith for employment with AWMI, they bastardize, giving their son Jonathan Peter Wommack, a 4 time felon a position within their ministry. It clearly states ALL EMPLOYEES must carry themselves in a Christ like manner, I guess beating your wife is what Jesus would do and is Christ like.

Their son beat me for 4 years and they turned their backs, in order to continue sucking money from hapless sheep to fund his legal bills and their 40 acre home in Florescent Colorado, while they left their own daughter in law and sister in Christ beaten and ravaged, bruised and torn, to live homeless.

It was with the TRUE GRACE of GOD and his love that I am gainfully employed, with a now Beautiful Home of my own, that I worked for, I don't need to beg money all over the world based on lies and hypocrisy. Jamie stated in court that she didn't agree with what her son had done to me, but she certainly did condone it, by standing up in court and lying, standing in front of myself, God and the law, to act just like Judas, betrayal, hypocrisy and blind foolishness is what Andrew and Jamie Wommack preach to their students, and even though they saw the brute force of his blows, scarring my face to this day, saw my many black eyes, heard my cries for help... I was told to "zip it" Meaning my mouth.

These people are evil and are leading so many down a road for hurt, pain and suffering with their teachings. When it's time to face God I hope they have a really good excuse. If you need any information to help let the public know of the wrongs these people are spreading, just ask.



Originally Posted by probinson View Post
For example, when Ms. Ferber was talking about her ex-husband's first wife in the interview, she mentioned her only as "Angela". There is no way to confirm what she said. It's all just taken at face value with no verification whatsoever.
In the article I linked, you will discover that her name is Angela Jackson, she was 40 years old in May 2009, a mother of 4, who works in Atlanta as a teacher and realtor.


peace,
Simon
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  #145  
Old 26th May 2011, 04:28 PM
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Question

Originally Posted by probinson View Post
posted by the Associated Baptist Press in July 2009;
LAKE FOREST, Calif. (ABP) -- A senior staff member of Rick Warren's Saddleback Church, quoted earlier this year as teaching the Bible does not permit a woman to divorce an abusive husband, has said the audio clip containing the comment gave the wrong impression about his views and has been removed from the church website.

In January Associated Baptist Press and several blogs quoted audio clips from a "Bible Questions & Answers" section of Saddleback's website in which Tom Holladay, the church's teaching pastor, said the Bible condones divorce for only two reasons: infidelity and abandonment.

Source: Associated Baptist Press - Saddleback removes audio clip saying abuse no excuse for divorce
3 questions:

1. where in the Bible did God/Jesus BEAT women?

2. is a husband (in one marriage) having sex with animals & children... (infidelity) enough grounds for divorce?
&
3. is a wife (in a different marriage)
refusing to have sex with her husband for 20 years (abandonment), enough grounds for divorce?
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  #146  
Old 26th May 2011, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Simon Peter View Post
The article I linked is posted on a Christian news site.
And...?

It is an exact reprint of an article from Double X, an article from the Double X website which I linked way back in post #8 of this thread.

Originally Posted by Simon Peter View Post
The source they reference is 'Double X', which may well be a sudonym for 'Sheri Ferber'? It's not unusual for news organizations to keep sources anonymous.
Please, click the link I provided to the Double X website and stop all this needless (and incorrect) speculation. Double X is not a sudonym [sic] for Sheri Ferber. You'll see the article you've referenced was written by Kathryn Joyce and originally published on the Double X website.

"Double X" is a website, Kathryn Joyce (who has also written a book entitled "Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement) is the author of the article, and you can read an interview with her conducted by the "Friendly Atheist" if you're so inclined.

Originally Posted by Simon Peter View Post
In the article I linked,
You mean the article I linked in post #8.

Originally Posted by Simon Peter View Post
you will discover that her name is Angela Jackson, she was 40 years old in May 2009, a mother of 4, who works in Atlanta as a teacher and realtor.
Yes, even though Ms. Ferber was not specific in her interview with Momlogic, I see that I missed that detail in the other article.

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  #147  
Old 26th May 2011, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by sk8Joyful View Post
3 questions:
3 Answers.


Originally Posted by sk8Joyful View Post
1. where in the Bible did God/Jesus BEAT women?
Nowhere.

Who exactly is suggesting that Jesus beat women?

Originally Posted by sk8Joyful View Post
2. is a husband (in one marriage) having sex with animals & children... (infidelity) enough grounds for divorce?
???

Has Ms. Ferber's husband been accused of having sex with animals and children? If not, I really have no idea what relevance this has in the current discussion.

But I would say that if a man is having sexual relations with animals and children, then he needs serious help.

Originally Posted by sk8Joyful View Post
3. is a wife (in a different marriage)
refusing to have sex with her husband for 20 years (abandonment), enough grounds for divorce?
I suppose that would be between the husband, the wife and God.

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  #148  
Old 26th May 2011, 05:02 PM
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Alert

Originally Posted by Simon Peter View Post
The article I linked is posted on a Christian news site.
If 'Double X' is Sheri Ferber,
I suspect she may be in a similar position as Andrew Wommack's ex-daughter-in-law,
who also says she was beaten by her husband (Andrew Wommack's son).
Originally Posted by Simon Peter View Post
I imagine it would be frustrating to be a victim of abuse,
and
watch a church or ministry - & other Christians - defend your abuser.
One outlet for these victims is to post their experiences and story online,
to try and expose the injustice. Here's what she said:
I am Andrew and Jamie Wommacks ex daughter in-law.

Their son Jonathan Peter is currently serving time in El paso county jail for beating me.
he actually put a gun to his own mother's head and burglarized her home, but
instead of showing GOD'S unconditional love to me, they blamed me for his actions.
Never acknowledging what he was doing, never helping.


Both of their sons have committed acts of domestic violence, and
have had to serve time
for it. I guess they learned it somewhere,
I suppose Andrew taught his sons how to abuse women, and
Jamie showed her sons, it was ok to be a battered wife.
How very Christ like?!?!?!?!


I begged that man and his wife to help me, they instead went against God's word,

giving their son
Jonathan Peter Wommack, a 4 time felon a position within their ministry.


Their son beat me for 4 years and they turned their backs, in order to continue sucking money from hapless sheep
to fund his legal bills and their 40 acre home in Florescent Colorado,
while they left their own daughter in law and sister in Christ
beaten and ravaged, to live homeless.


It was with the TRUE GRACE of GOD and his love that I am gainfully employed,
with a now Beautiful Home of my own, that I worked for.
Even though they saw the brute force of his blows, scarring my face to this day, saw my many black eyes, heard my cries for help... I was told to 'zip it' Meaning my mouth.


These people are evil and If you need any information to help let the public know
of the wrongs these people are spreading, just ask.


In the article I linked, you will discover that her name is Angela Jackson,

she was 40 years old in May 2009, a mother of 4, who works in Atlanta as a teacher and realtor.

peace,

Simon
The problem is NOT that people 'don't know'
those atrocities happens every few 'seconds' to another mom, & children.

The problem IS, that just like in this thread here, posters
will DENY, rationalize, & justify ANYthing. <-- THAT is the problem.

And THAT makes them just as 'guilty'.

Last edited by sk8Joyful; 26th May 2011 at 05:37 PM.
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  #149  
Old 26th May 2011, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Tamara224 View Post
[font=Book Antiqua]Yeah, you'd think that except for the fact that they promoted a convicted wife beater to a position of leadership.

Usually promotions are rewards for acceptable behavior. So, yeah, funny way of not condoning, if you ask me.


There are lots of reasons for promoting someone. Reading between the lines of the story , this man is skilled in music and has experience at Life Church. Musical skill and experience are two good reasons to put someone in a position to minister in the area of music.

Perhaps the Holy Spirit moves powerfully through this man and he may be quite gifted by God in the area of music.

The context is that he left Life church and had now made his church home Saddleback Church. A place where he obviously had a previous connection.

The man professes to be Christian and presumable agrees with the basic doctrinal positions of Saddleback Church.

It can be taken at face value that they placed him in a position to minister because they saw good qualities in him.

Earlier in the thread , one poster mentioned standing for righteousness in all areas and not just choosing one issue to push. There are lots of moral issues that can potentially be considered when promoting someone to leadership.

Some churches do not allow divorced people in leadership. Other churches ordain homosexual ministers. Some churches promote people who have had abortions.

The position that a history of domestic violence should be the one defining issue is debatable.
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Old 26th May 2011, 05:14 PM
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probinson has a reputation beyond reputeprobinson has a reputation beyond reputeprobinson has a reputation beyond reputeprobinson has a reputation beyond reputeprobinson has a reputation beyond reputeprobinson has a reputation beyond reputeprobinson has a reputation beyond reputeprobinson has a reputation beyond reputeprobinson has a reputation beyond reputeprobinson has a reputation beyond reputeprobinson has a reputation beyond reputeprobinson has a reputation beyond reputeprobinson has a reputation beyond reputeprobinson has a reputation beyond reputeprobinson has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Simon Peter View Post
Wommack's ex-daughter in-law called herself "Anonymous" even though she identified herself as the former husband of Jonathan Peter Wommack. Could be a similar situation with "Double X"?
This is an even bigger example of people just believing whatever they read with no verification.

The text you posted comes from here;

False Teachers Exposed: ANDREW WOMMACK

It is a response in the comments on a blog. There is absolutely no way to verify anything in that comment. Yet people just accept it as the truth.

So someone reads a comment on an article on a blog entitled "False Teachers Exposed" from someone who alleges to be Andew Wommack's daughter-in-law, and even though there is absolutely no way to verify the veracity of the statements made, people just swallow it up because it confirms what they think about Andrew Wommack.

Journalistic standards need not apply. This is the age of the Internet where anyone, anyone, can post whatever the heck they want and the masses will swallow it up as fact.

Sad.

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