| General Theology The forum for general theological discussions about issues that do not fit in any other forum, eg. Angelology |  | | 
17th May 2011, 09:17 AM
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Reps: 630,464,833,523,712,256 (power: 630,464,833,523,725) | | | Deut 1: "...your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it."
I'm posting for those who have lost babies and children and need to know there are Scriptures that state they are with Him. | 
17th May 2011, 09:17 AM
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Reps: 604,943,049,641,157,376 (power: 604,943,049,641,184) | | Originally Posted by Brak [/color] Sorry, but now I DO have Scripture. Matthew 22 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
I never said they become angels. I said they become LIKE the angels. That is sound doctrine. It is so because it came straight from Jesus' mouth.
Point taken; you indeed didn't say it. I happily take it back.
However, it isn't just babies, but indeed all humanity which will become transfigured.
Still, on the other hand, the issue of whether babies are somehow immune to original sin simply due to the fact of their age is unresolved. How do you address the issue?
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17th May 2011, 09:25 AM
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Reps: 9,441,643,038,118,188 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by tturt Deut 1: "...your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it."
I'm posting for those who have lost babies and children and need to know there are Scriptures that state they are with Him.
Actually, that verse says they're in sheol. It was like the Greek hades. They hardly had any existence. It was like being in suspended animation. Like being dead. | 
17th May 2011, 11:13 AM
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I was pointing out the Origen who was among the proto-orthodox and was held in high esteem by many orthodox / catholic "Church Fathers" for centuries taught that (angels falling and becoming human, humans becoming angels, etc.). Eventually, long after his death, he was anthmatized on the orders of a Byzantine emperor but even after that his writings continued to circulate in that church. The idea that humans could become angels was far from unknown in the early proto-orthodox and orthodox church.
__________________ I believe it is the fate of the West to again and again link these two basic positions with one another, the one which is critically rational and desires to know, and the one which is mystically irrational and searches for the absolving experience of amity. Both positions will always live in the human soul, and one will always already carry the other as the germ of its opposite. -Wolfgang Pauli | 
17th May 2011, 03:20 PM
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Reps: 604,943,049,641,157,376 (power: 604,943,049,641,184) | | Originally Posted by Ishraqiyun I was pointing out the Origen who was among the proto-orthodox and was held in high esteem by many orthodox / catholic "Church Fathers" for centuries taught that (angels falling and becoming human, humans becoming angels, etc.).
Origen is controversial. At best, he was misunderstood; at worse, a heretic. More than likely, a mixture of both. A lot of his ideas were entirely unorthodox, so your claim of him being proto-orthodox is unfounded, including his idea of pre-existence.
Furthermore, any idea that the spiritual is higher, more real, or better than the physical is absolutely and undeniably non-Christian. Genesis makes it fundamentally clear that the physical is just as real and good as the spiritual. Eventually, long after his death, he was anthmatized on the orders of a Byzantine emperor but even after that his writings continued to circulate in that church. The idea that humans could become angels was far from unknown in the early proto-orthodox and orthodox church.
Some of his ideas were anathematized by the Fifth Ecumenical Council. Emperors do not have authority over the Holy Church.
The ideas that humans become angels is based off of Gnosticism and Manicheanism. Both are not just non-Christian religions like Islam, Buddhism, or Sikhism, but are outright anti-Christian religions. St. Augustine had the right idea of getting out when he did.
__________________ President of the WACCAV To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. For You are the Lord Most High, of great compassion, long-suffering, and very merciful, and You relent at human suffering. O Lord, according to Your great goodness You have promised repentance and forgiveness to those who have sinned against You, and in the multitude of Your mercies You have appointed repentance for sinners so that they may be saved. -Prayer of Manasseh verse 7 (NRSV) To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. | 
17th May 2011, 03:35 PM
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Reps: 4,779,413,511,334,144,000 (power: 4,779,413,511,334,169) | | Originally Posted by Ishraqiyun The baby may or may not be a Christian.
I'm not sure how that has anything to do with the baby being with God.  No matter what may have been the baby's background, he/she will still be in the presence of the One True and Eternal God.
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17th May 2011, 03:38 PM
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Reps: 4,779,413,511,334,144,000 (power: 4,779,413,511,334,169) | | Originally Posted by CryptoLutheran Several points:
For one, I think a number of the biblical references brought out to say that babies are automatically saved are weak at best, at worst they're so totally non-applicable that I'm not sure why they were referenced.
Secondly, often here in this sort of discussion an appeal is made to which we go, "Not the babies! Babies can't go to hell, they're babies!" it's a poor theological argument based more-or-less on our personal feelings. Which isn't to say I don't identify with it, I do, the very notion of a tiny infant going to Hell, especially the sort of Hell envisioned by a great swath of 20th century Fundamentalists, is such a dreadful idea that a gut response--if I am to consider myself a decent person--is to find the idea so horrendous as to react quite angrily toward someone who might suggest such a thing. But, again, I fail to see how that alone makes a good theological argument.
Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, I think this topic can--if we let it--get at the heart of how our theology functions. It can demonstrate either a theological consistency or a theological inconsistency. I think it can also help us re-think our theology if we let it, it can encourage us to reevaluate how we have done theology and to make it better (again, if we allow it).
We're often willing to accept that a little baby is, effectively too innocent and sweet to burn in the fires of hell and yet go on to say that everyone who does not agree with us will burn in the fires of hell, on the sole basis of what they may or may not believe. That is, there is a certain ontological view at work in which "these people" go to hell on the basis that they are not Christians, they are sinners, born sinners and therefore "deserving of hell" as "we all are" and yet in the same breath it is justified that an infant (which each of these persons was when they were born, the same who were born as sinners remember) will not burn on the basis that they haven't done anything "deserving of hell".
The infant is spared the torments of hell for not having done anything to deserve it; while the adult non-believer is condemned, not for having done something to deserve it but because each and every one of us is born deserving of Hell.
Let that sink in for a moment.
A usual argument is that one needs to have reached an "age of accountability" but such an argument is neither biblical nor reasonable since such a concept is entirely arbitrary; and it can reasonably be argued that as far as matters of faith are concerned who can say who is and is not accountable?
That is, if I have not properly understood the Christian message and what I reject isn't the Christian message as it truly is, but a parody either through the fault of the evangelist or my own insufficient human reasoning to what end am I accountable?
Or we can make an interesting case with those who suffer forms of mental illness, consider the sociopath; the sociopath is medically unable to grasp what is right or wrong, to what end is the sociopath truly accountable on a purely moral level?
Here is where, I argue, our confession must rest: That there is no other name save the name of Jesus Christ by which anyone might be saved. We place salvation wholly in Christ who is Savior of the whole human race. That must be our confession, resting and wholly in Christ our Lord who is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life".
Let us also, therefore, permit that in the Divine Mystery of God's grace "who desires that all be saved and come to repentance" and is "the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe" there is space that we cannot probe. It is a space that we cannot look, cannot wander, cannot dictate because it is God's private space which He has not permitted our musings, our limitations, our probing. What I mean is that there are things which God, in His infinite wisdom, has not seen fit to spell out for us, He has not seen fit to tell us or reveal to us. Instead of asserting in an area where we cannot know because God has not told us let us instead allow God to be the God of justice and mercy, of grace as well as wrath to judge and to do what He will do.
That is, permit grace a ranger larger than we can conceive because it is God's, and whether to salvation or condemnation a person goes we cannot know because that is known only by the God who alone is Savior and alone is Judge. The Same who judges is the Same who was crucified, the Same who loves you and me loves everyone else.
So permit mercy its deserved bigness, permit God to still be God, permit that you and I are limited and finite and that it's not our place in this life to stand in the Seat of Judgment which belongs only to Christ. Let us speak of what we can speak, and be silent about what we ought to be silent and in all things trust in Christ and that all His judgments are good and that He is Friend of sinners and Judge of the living and the dead.
-CryptoLutheran
Interesting and good post. I believe in God's mercy.
__________________ "The greater the love, the greater the sufferings of the soul. The fuller the love, the fuller the knowledge of God. The more ardent the love, the more fervent the prayer. The more perfect the love, the holier the life." ~St. Silouan To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
The Father is my hope, the Son my refuge, the Holy Spirit my protection: All-Holy Trinity, glory to You! To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PRAY constantly to FIND GOD. LOVE greatly to KNOW GOD. PARTAKE of His Sacraments to EXPERIENCE GOD. ~ from my little Orthodox Prayer book | 
17th May 2011, 03:39 PM
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Reps: 1,212,115,074,106,732,288 (power: 1,212,115,074,106,753) | | Originally Posted by BloodyRachel How can they be judged before they chose Christ?
How can they be judged when they haven't yet sinned or realised they need a Saviour, heard the Gospel and accepted Christ?
I believe the baby/toddler will go to heaven, based on the Grace, mercy and loving kindness of its heavenly Father.
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17th May 2011, 04:20 PM
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Reps: 4,783,006,671,602,464,768 (power: 0) | | | David said, "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."
Jeremiah records: "The word of the Lord came to me saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.'"
We are known by God before we are born. The days appointed to us are known by God before we are born. Some of us are blessed with old age and some are not. I'm inclined to think that what God foreknows about us is what determines our final place whether we are young or old. | 
17th May 2011, 09:19 PM
|  | Antimatter - true matter .. sight world - illusion 34 
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Reps: 3,809,907,008,151,013,376 (power: 3,809,907,008,151,027) | | Originally Posted by BloodyRachel Do they go to hell? That seems unbelievable. There was a famous theologian centuries ago that said they do. Do they go to heaven? This also seems unbelievable. How can they be judged before they chose Christ? Could they be judged according to their parents' faith?
well according to the rules of not unorthodox forums it appears the baby does go to hell . burn baby burn .
not that i believe that .. but that seems to be the bias .
__________________ "whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:9-10)
"Anything that does not come from faith is sin" (Romans 14:23)
"The only thing that matters is faith expressing itself through love" (Galatians 5:6) God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. (1 John 4:16-18) -Michael Collum
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