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Unread 8th May 2011, 01:30 AM
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Ravens and Righteousness: What Does Elijah's Miracle Feeding Say on Food/Missions?

Reading alot of the discussions on Kosher foods...and honestly, in light of all of the discussions, something that has come to mind is how to renconcile the fact that for all the discussion of all things "unclean" being a big deal to God when it comes to food, God provided Elijah with food from the mouths of UNCLEAN Ravens?
I Kings 17

Elijah Fed by Ravens

1 Now Elijah the Tishbite, from Tishbe [] in Gilead, said to Ahab, "As the LORD, the God of Israel, lives, whom I serve, there will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word."

2 Then the word of the LORD came to Elijah: 3 "Leave here, turn eastward and hide in the Kerith Ravine, east of the Jordan. 4 You will drink from the brook, and I have ordered the ravens to feed you there."



5 So he did what the LORD had told him. He went to the Kerith Ravine, east of the Jordan, and stayed there. 6 The ravens brought him bread and meat in the morning and bread and meat in the evening, and he drank from the brook.
Leviticus 11:14-16
13 " 'These are the birds you are to detest and not eat because they are detestable: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, 14 the red kite, any kind of black kite, 15 any kind of raven, 16 the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, 17 the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, 18 the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, 19 the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.
Deuteronomy 14:13-15
11 You may eat any clean bird. 12 But these you may not eat: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, 13 the red kite, the black kite, any kind of falcon, 14 any kind of raven..........
Were the Ravens UNCLEAN BIRDS to be detested/avoided? Yes or No? And was Elijah wrong for dealing with them as He did? Yes or No? If one will say "Well, they could only not eat unclean animals..so it's not as if God went counter to Kosher Law!!!", then where is that in the law...especially seeing that God outlined consequences for it in the Word?
Leviticus 5:2
" 'Or if a person touches anything ceremonially unclean—whether the carcasses of unclean wild animals or of unclean livestock or of unclean creatures that move along the ground—even though he is unaware of it, he has become unclean and is guilty.
Leviticus 5:1-3
Leviticus 7:21
If anyone touches something unclean—whether human uncleanness or an unclean animal or any unclean, detestable thing—and then eats any of the meat of the fellowship offering belonging to the LORD, that person must be cut off from his people.' "
Leviticus 11:14-16
13 " 'These are the birds you are to detest and not eat because they are detestable: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, 14 the red kite, any kind of black kite, 15 any kind of raven, 16 the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, 17 the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, 18 the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, 19 the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat
.Deuteronomy 14:13-15
11 You may eat any clean bird. 12 But these you may not eat: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, 13 the red kite, the black kite, any kind of falcon, 14 any kind of raven..........

Ravens are among the birds that are unclean for the Jews. Some have speculated that they are considered unclean because they are scavengers and carrion eaters. However, other birds on the list, such as the eagle or the owl, eat live prey. Another suggestion is that they are meat eaters. Regardless, the reality remains that the WORD makes clear that GOD USED THEM to feed His prophet, as seen in 1 Kings 17:1 . It must have been offensive at first to Elijah to be fed by ravens, those unclean birds. And on some things, its interesting to consider. For did the ravens drop off raw meat? Or did they have a miraculous way to cook the meat first? Did the ravens also have a miraculous way to measure and mix the ingredients and to bake the bread? How would the ravens have had access to these food items? Wouldn't the ravens cooking meat and baking bread be another miracle to add to Elijah's ministry?


And of course, when Greater purposes are involved, it makes sense. As another said best:
Many consider ravens worthless birds. What good can come from a scavenger? Yet this is the very attitude Elijah had about the people of Israel to whom he was sent. “And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.” God needed to show Elijah that this worthless nation had value in itself. If a bird that couldn’t even be used as a sacrifice was useful to God in feeding his prophet, then a nation that couldn’t obey God like those ravens might have good in it.
The reality NO ONE CAN AVOID is that every bit of food that came to Elijah came from the beak of an unclean animal. And as the Word makes clear, if a strict Jew (Which he was), that would require Elijah to to put away his traditional ideas of clean and unclean..... or he would die of starvation. Through this, God taught Elijah to emphasize the spirit of the law before the letter of the law. Charles Spurgeon, if knowing who he was, actually drew two points of application from this event, likening the food the ravens brought to spiritual food. First, he recognized that God may bring a good word to us through an unclean vessel, a spiritually unclean like a raven. Second, that one can bring spiritual food to others and still be unclean spiritually themselves. As he said best
"But see, too, how possible it is for us to carry bread and meat to God’s servants, and do, some good things for his church, and yet be ravens still!" (Spurgeon)

It is implied clearly in the text seeing how Elijah was in the wilderness/needed to have food to survive...and the fact remains that GOD Commanded unclean birds to feed Elijah in a time of famine, with ELIJAH obeying God. The immediate context determines meaning, as a general rule--and on the surrounding background:
1 Kings 16:29-17:13


Ahab Becomes King of Israel

29 In the thirty-eighth year of Asa king of Judah, Ahab son of Omri became king of Israel, and he reigned in Samaria over Israel twenty-two years. 30 Ahab son of Omri did more evil in the eyes of the LORD than any of those before him. 31 He not only considered it trivial to commit the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, but he also married Jezebel daughter of Ethbaal king of the Sidonians, and began to serve Baal and worship him. 32 He set up an altar for Baal in the temple of Baal that he built in Samaria. 33 Ahab also made an Asherah pole and did more to provoke the LORD, the God of Israel, to anger than did all the kings of Israel before him.

34 In Ahab's time, Hiel of Bethel rebuilt Jericho. He laid its foundations at the cost of his firstborn son Abiram, and he set up its gates at the cost of his youngest son Segub, in accordance with the word of the LORD spoken by Joshua son of Nun.


1 Kings 17

Elijah Fed by Ravens

1 Now Elijah the Tishbite, from Tishbe [] in Gilead, said to Ahab, "As the LORD, the God of Israel, lives, whom I serve, there will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word."

2 Then the word of the LORD came to Elijah: 3 "Leave here, turn eastward and hide in the Kerith Ravine, east of the Jordan. 4 You will drink from the brook, and I have ordered the ravens to feed you there."



God sent Elijah to a far off region. For Elijah’s enemy, Ahab, lived in the city of Samaria, 35 miles north of Jerusalem, in the hill country of Israel. And the reason God chose to send Elijah to a place outside of Israel, past the Sea of Galilee or the Jordan River, to a a good source of fresh water is because God wanted to protect him. Ahab/ Jezebel had been killing off as many prophets of the Lord as they could find (1 Kings 18:4).


The first place Ahab’s men would be searching would be the Jordan River and the Galilee freshwater lake. As the place Elijah was located was so far off/desolate, it was logical for the Lord to provide for Elijah in radical means. Again, from the overall context of the story.....Elijah, in his zealousness for the Lord, calls down the wrath of God to cease the rains as a witness against the people, so that they would take notice of the Lord, and repent.The overall situation obviously stressed Elijah a great deal, and he also feared for his life at the hands of Ahab. So God comforted Elijah by commanding Him to go to a lonely place....and the ravens took care of him according to GOD'S own commands. On a side note, the Hebrew word used for 'meat' really has its root meaning in the word 'fresh', eliminating carrion, or dead flesh, as it would not be "kosher", which would have brought more stress to Elijah, as any such meat would also do to us. Also, though God could do the miraculous by giving FRESH Bread for ravens to carry, the word translated "bread" could also mean victuals or food in general. The ravens could have brought Elijah grains and small fleshy fruit, such as figs or dates and it would not have violated any law. In reality, it may be much closer to the true meaning of the verse, and which would bring the spiritual healing Elijah needed.






On the subject, I'm continually reminded of when Jesus made mention of the ways in which God did not necessarily work in line with "ceremonial" issues. As seen in Luke 4:25-27/ when Jesus gets ousted by his hometown for glorifying examples of others with faith---namely Elijah and the Widow, which Jesus referenced from 1 Kings 17:1 / 1 Kings 17:13/, in God's Working against the norm to save his people.


Scripturally, I think its amazing to see that in a nation required by law to care for its prophets , God would turn to RAVENS (unclean birds and by law, to be avoided/detested ,Genesis 8:6-8 Leviticus 11:14-16 / /Deuteronomy 14:13-15 /) to feed Elijah in 1 Kings 17:1-3 Luke 12:23-25 )---as people could have EASILY tripped that what was in God's law about detestable birds was seemingly violated with Elijah being supplied by them....and even more interesting to see God supplying for the prophet by means of a GENTILE widow who was preparing her last meal/ENDED up giving it to the Prophet for food/fellowship----as she was a foreigner from the home territory of Sidon (1 Kings 16:30-32 //1 Kings 11:32-34 / ). Yet the Spirit of the Lord was at work regardless. For God has/calls others to give help where we least expect it...and He provides for us in ways that go beyond our narrow definitions or expectations.....as His providence has often gone in strange places.



If anyone has any thoughts, I'd love to hear sometime....
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Last edited by Gxg (G); 8th May 2011 at 01:53 AM.
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Unread 8th May 2011, 01:35 AM
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Idea For more info....

Originally Posted by Easy G (G) View Post
Elijah, in his zealousness for the Lord, calls down the wrath of God to cease the rains as a witness against the people, so that they would take notice of the Lord, and repent.The overall situation obviously stressed Elijah a great deal, and he also feared for his life at the hands of Ahab. So God comforted Elijah by commanding Him to go to a lonely place....and the ravens took care of him according to GOD'S own commands.

For more info...


Even if the birds were unclean, as a miracle, its not beyond GODs power in wild times to make that which is unclean CLEAN for food----in His Mercy, just as he has often done in many hard situations Missionaries have found themselves in when food was either scare or not the best....or in dirty/"less than ideal" situations. John G.Lake is one of the greatest examples, specifically concerning what went down during his five years in South Africa, in his healing ministry (much of which was amazing/a blessing). For while assisting doctors during a bubonic plague outbreak, he was asked why he had not contracted the disease since he had used none of their medical protection. And he said, "it is the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus." To demonstrate, he had them take live bubonic plague germs still foaming from the lungs of a newly dead person and put them in his hands and then examine the germs under a microscope, with them watching (under a microscope) the germs die as they touched his hand. For more info, I'd suggest going online/ looking into the work of others on the issue such as "Holy Spirit Missionary Assoc:Trainors Partner Newsletter ..." ( //www.hsma.net/newsletter/05-2009 Greg & Lydia Trainor Newsletter.pdf ) and "Cane Creek Church: John G. Lake" ( //canecreekchurch.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=59&Itemi d=43 ).


But with Elijah, how true that God always takes care of His people in the midst of a time of judgment:


Luke 12:24
Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds!

Already established in the Word is the fact that God love/took care of his creation, ravens..
Psalm 147:9
He provides food for the cattle and for the young ravens when they call.



Job 38:40-41
Who provides food for the raven when its young cry out to God and wander about for lack of food?


Song of Solomon 5:11
His head is purest gold; his hair is wavy and black as a raven.

And thus, when it comes to provision, there is a cycle that the text of Scripture makes clear. For God fed the ravens...and likewise, in unusual times, the ravens fed Elijah! Elijah got his food a different way. God sent ravens to bring him food. And that in/of itself makes clear the meaning of the text.





Had Elijah been a rebellious prophet, he would either PROTESTED/Raised alarms...or he would have chosen to disobey the Lord/not eat when the Lord made clear He was going to be feeding Elijah meat via ravens. God would not have go through all of the trouble of sending Elijah away and then commanding Ravens to FEED Him (as it was a FAMINE--NO Food) simply because it was a show---as if God really didn't want Elijah to eat from the ravens/somehow was testing him. It was an issue of cycles, learning of God's provision and how OBEDIANCE to him will never lead to His not taking care of us. And as much as some may protest, there is again PRECEDENCE for God often going counter to the rules/being RADICAL when it comes showing HIMSELF---just as it was with the Prophet Ezekiel, when he was COMMANDED by GOD to cook over dung/feces (unclean) in Ezekiel 4:14-16/ ...or Isaiah, when he walked around naked in Isaiah 20:3 ... or Hosea, when he was COMMANDED by God to marry a dirty harlot/prostitute in Hosea 1:2-4 / ......






For more information, I'd suggest going online/looking up an article by the name of "Testings By the Brook (Part 1) (1 Kings 17:2-7)" ( //bible.org/seriespage/testings-brook-part-2-1-kings-174-7 )...for as they said best, in excerpt:
.... the ravens would bring bread and meat to Elijah. Bread is the Hebrew lechem that can refer to food in general and may well have included berries, fruits, nuts, and even eggs. Isnt this interesting? God could have rained bread from heaven or brought up quails as he did for the Israelites in the wilderness. Instead, He chose to feed Elijah through the ravens. Why ravens for goodness sake? What did this mean to Elijah? Elijah was a Jew and according to the Law the raven was an unclean bird, one of the species the Jew was not allowed to eat. Though he is not told to eat the ravens, still, God chose an unclean bird to feed Elijah. Why? Perhaps to remind him (and us of course) the Lord is sovereign and supreme and we need to learn to submit to the tools He chooses to use to mold us and to the methods He uses to supply our needs. Here God was nourishing Elijahs faith, building his confidence, and reminding him of who was in charge.





Also, as another ministry said best on the issue...in an article one can look up online entitled "Elijah and the Ravens ( //www.keepbelieving.com/sermon/2006-03-07-Elijah-and-the-Ravens/ ):
Once God declared the ravens unclean, no Jew would have anything to do with them. They were not to be eaten under any circumstances. And given their scavenging nature, that prohibition was actually a blessing to the Jews.

And that brings us back to the story of Elijah. When the Lord told him to go and hide himself by the brook Cherith on the east side of the Jordan, he also promised send ravens to feed him. I have no doubt that the prophet was not exactly thrilled with that promise. Its hard enough to have to hide yourself in a desolate region. Far worse was the news that he would be fed twice a day by unclean birds. The whole thing was unusual because ravens normally care only for their own. Under no circumstances would they bring food to a man, much less do it twice a day.

What should we learn from the story of Elijah and the ravens?


1) God commanded and the ravens came.
In 1 Kings 17:4 the Lord declares, I have commanded the ravens to feed you there. I can imagine Elijah sitting alone by the brook when suddenly a flock of birds approaches him. They are ravens, unclean scavenger birds. It must have been a fearsome sight to see these enormous black birds swooping in with bread and meat in their beaks. But they did not come by chance nor did they fly from a nearby cave. God sent them, God commanded them, God directed them, and thus they came to the prophets aid.

Let me pause to ask a question. How much food does it take to sustain your family each week? I confess that I dont know the answer to that question, but my wife does. When all three of our boys lived at home, we went through an enormous amount of food every week. Some weeks we would go through 5-10 gallons of milk. No matter how often we went to the grocery store, we would have to go again a few days later. Thats how it is with growing boys. You have to keep feeding them because they never stop growing. And they are always hungry. Many nights we would hear some noise in the kitchen late at night. It was Josh or Mark or Nick foraging for food. It would take some detailed calculations to figure out how much weve spent on food over the years, but God knows the exact amount because he keeps track of what we need. He knows your name and he knows your address and he knows what you need today and he knows what you will need tomorrow. Its all written on his heart because he watches over you even when you think he has forgotten you. God knows what you need, and he knows when you need it, and he will make sure you have it in time. As he sent the ravens to Elijah, he can command all heaven to come to your aid.

2) God did not allow Elijah to hoard up a surplus.
He sent the ravens to Elijah twice a day, in the morning and again in the evening. The ravens didnt bring enough on Monday to last the whole week. They brought enough in the morning to last the day and enough at night to keep him nourished during the night. Just enough and nothing more. This is Jesus meant when he taught us to pray, Give us this day our daily bread (Matthew 6:11). God is teaching us in the Old Testament the same thing he is trying to teach us in the New Testament. He is willing to supply our needs but only on a day to day to day basis. We dont like to live like that. Most of us have freezers at home filled with food. Maybe we have a side of beef and some vegetables. We have plenty of food. There is nothing wrong with that, by the way, but a freezer filled with food makes it difficult to pray this prayer sincerely. We mutter our prayers instead of saying them from the heart because we already know we arent going to go hungry. We dont want to live day to day. Wed rather have pension plans and stocks and bonds and options. We would rather have life insurance policies that guarantee a secure future. If we had our way, this prayer would read, Give us this week our weekly bread. Or Give us this month our monthly bread. Or better yet, Lord, give us this year our yearly bread. Just give it to us all at once and well be alright. Then well trust you.

The other view on the issue is that there's a perfectly good social reason for the purity violation. For ritual purity was about drawing boundary lines..and the law was about separating the Jews from their neighbors. Since Elijah was already out in the wilderness, he was in fact ALREADY outside the social boundaries, and so he is already ritually unclean according to the ancient mindset, and "a bit more raven spit isn't going to make him any worse off." And on boundaries, it'd be NO MORE Far off than Ezekiel, when he cooked over dung in Ezekiel 4:14-16/ Ezekiel 4 ... or Isaiah, when he walked around naked in Isaiah 20:3 ... or Hosea, when he married a harlot in Hosea 1:2-4 / Hosea 1


With Ezekiel, Ezekiel 4:14-16 , it is interesting to see that Ezekiel raises no objections to God's Speech until he is told to use human excrement/waste (dung) for fuel. For animal fuel is a common fuel ( 1 Kings 14:9-11 1 Kings 14 )--and Ezekiel was a priest/would have been careful to keep all the laws that God Himself had set up. This circumstance of the sign, the baking of his bread with man's dung, was something he humbly asked be dispensed with since it seemed to have in it something of a ceremonial pollution, for there was a law that man's dung should be covered with earth, that God might see no unclean thing in their camp ( Deuteronomy 23:12-14). Because Ezekiel with a manifest tenderness of conscience made this scruple, God dispensed with him in this matter. Ezekiel protested and God submitted to His request out of mercy. The actions seem to represent an example of God's condescension/graciouness to Ezekiel, though God's authority is incontestable/ all his commands are wise/ good. For God allowed Ezekiel to use cow's dung instead of man's dung, Ezekiel 4:15...not because He thought it was bad what He FIRST commanded...but because of MERCY. But what's still heavy for me to consider is that if God said "No!" to Ezekiel's request, would he have still eaten?
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Unread 8th May 2011, 01:49 AM
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Bringing home the issue, part of the reason that I bring up the issue is that I've been processing the plight of others around the world in the situations they've been involved in. It has always amazed me to consider how people in third world countries often have a hard time getting enough decent complete protein. ...and some of their diets may include things we'd normally be grossed out by, be it large spiders, large beetle grubs, or termites. One man's meat

With spiders, I seem to remember, years ago, seeing in Nat'l Geographic magazine, some people somewhere--S. America, maybe--who ate tarantulas. I think they burned off their hair, then charred them and ate them.

Disgusting, IMHO....and no, I wouldn't do it. But considering the difficulty in getting complete protein in some third world countries, I cannot fault them for eating them. Just as in Africa, some people cook and eat these huge beetle grubs and even termites. Would I eat them?

Being on the mission field often and seeing some of the things I've witnessed with the foods others have eaten, I wonder at times how many following Jewish customs would handle themselves if in another country/attending some of the church services they have to offer when it comes to what they put on the table. For if you're on the mission field and all they have is pigs available for food, I've always been of the mind that one had best be prepared to sit down/eat whats prepared if that is what it would take for fellowship in the Lord/the Gospel to be proclaimed among the people one's reaching or seeking to encourage. Galatians 2:12-14 speaks to this reality very clearly---and being on the mission field many times, it's something I've often seen in action a good bit of time.


As the text says:
Galatians 2:7

3Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. 4This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you.

6As for those who seemed to be important—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance—those men added nothing to my message. 7On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles,[] just as Peter had been to the Jews.[] 8For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9James, Peter[] and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. 10All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.


Paul Opposes Peter

11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.






There are a couple a differing views that I've heard on this text from various Messianic Jews. One of them is that Peter's loyalty to Kashrut had been such that nothing treif had ever touched his lips prior to seeing Cornelius, for we have his word, spoken while he was seeing a vision ( Acts 10:11-13 ) and reported to him afterwards by him to other believers in Acts 11:16....with the vision of Peter not having abrogated the laws of kashrut, but that a new circumstance, the inclusion of Gentiles in the Messianic community, was to have an impact on Torah. so that keeping kosher became a less important mitzvah than preserving fellowship between Jewish and Gentile believers----and all of this would be important seeing how the Jerusalem Conference happened years later when it came to Judaizers saying kashrut had to be kept by Gentiles for salvation/acceptance before the Lord in Acts 15:14--and even the Jewish people later on seemed to have not ignored kosher, as see in Acts 21:17-22:21

Another theory set forth by many Messianic Jews is that Peter and the other Jewish believers who ate with the Gentiles ate kosher foods with them---that either the Gentiles agreed to eat only kosher foods, or special food was prepared/served to the Jewish believers....for according to this theory, Peter's fear of the Circumcision Faction/ group was only of their seeing him eating with Gentiles and supposing he was eating Gentile foods when he wasn't. The view is motivated by the desire to show that the early Jewish believers did not cease being Jews and continued to observe Torah the same way they did before coming to faith.

Another theory, as advocated by Messianic Jew Daniel Klutstein, is that the problem may not have been whether fellowship between Jewish and Gentile believers was more compelling than kosher food laws..but whether it is more compelling than ritual purity. For today, it is hard to understand or appreciate how important purity was in first-century Jewish life, although the fact that one-sixth of the Talmud is devoted to this subject ought to give indication. In the first century, homes of observant Jews frequently had a mikveh built in to be able to maintain ritual purity at all times. Hundereds of them can be seen today at archelogical sites in Jerusalem and througout Israel. Considering that Peter frequently went to the temple and would not have been able to enter in an ritually impure state, eating with Gentiles would have rendered him "impure"/subject to the criticisms of the picky. But before the overly critical Jews in Galatians, he backed off/became a hypocrite...or at the least, inconsistent into being true to what he believed.

The other view offered by many Messianic Jews (to which I hold to) is that to live Messianic Jewishly means sometimes to "live Goyishly" from the viewpoint of a Non-Messianic Jew (one not truly trusting in the Grace/Love of Yeshua). For because of the way in which the Torah has been modified under the New Covenant to take into account the inclusion of Gentiles in God's people, the Torah-True Messianic Jew may break the laws of kosher for the sake of preserving Jewish-Gentile fellowship in the Body of Messiah (and the Torah-true Messianic Gentile may sometimes choose to eat Kosher for the same reason).






Regardless of whichever view others have on the issue, I think that the view one has makes a substantial difference if it comes to reaching the Nations of Christ Globally. And truly, how often do people really consider the ramifications of what happens when going the entire way? In example..sometimes, for people in Indonesia/Pacific nations when it comes to some of the delicacies/foods they had to offer one could be shocked. It would be a trip to see what happens to New Guinea boys when they eat raws grubs or roasted stink bugs for a mid-morning snack - or the Indonesian woman who likes cicada and says, "It's better than pig."





But that's what they have....and as it is, many forget the nutritional value in why others cook insects and are eating bugs all over the world. From Raw Scorpion in China, roasted grubs in Australia, stir-fried dragonflies in Indonesia, tarantulas on a stick in Cambodia, to live termites in Botswana and many other cultures with insect eating. Entomophagy is practiced by all kinds of people, all over the world--as Arthropods are a good source of protein, plentiful, and often easier to catch than a fast bird or dangerous mammal. For more info, go to


  • Entomophagy: The Art of Eating Insects
On a side note, I think its easy to discuss Kosher foods when it comes to Meats and Poultry. But when it comes to bugs--even discussion of what bugs are "Kosher" and which ones are not--that's another issue (as Deuteronomy 14:18-20 / /Leviticus 11:19-21 )....and I think that's due in general to how those in the West are generally trained from early on since childhood that eating bugs is "disgusting"--even though in other respective cultures, to them what we eat in the States is JUST as disgusting many times--and often getting us killed, to be blunt.


Regarding what was brought up with eating insects, as there are some that are indeed Kosher, John the Baptist survived off of locusts. so if in another country where that's available, one may be in luck
Matthew 3:4
John's clothes were made of camel's hair, and he had a leather belt around his waist. His food was locusts and wild honey.
Mark 1:6
John wore clothing made of camel's hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey.
Mark 1:5-7
As it stands, Leviticus 11:21-23 mentions four species of locusts that may be eaten. Mishna Chullin 3:7 defines the characteristics of Kosher locusts and in the Gemara, Chullin 65a-66a analyzes these rules at length. Locusts were food for the poor in Yeshua's day--as Bedouins cook and eat them to this day, as did the Jews of Yemen before that community was removed to Israel by Operation Flying Carpet in 1950. So again, if you're on the Mission Field and bugs are the main source of sustainable food sources, then you may be in luck when locusts are around. However, one cannot bet on that EVERY TIME---as kosher species of locusts may not be around in EVERY area....and on that point, its why we should not be afraid of such if food comes in ways we least suspect. As it is, some things are a very big cultural issue...and not to be what makes the difference if it comes to evaluating people's faith.


To be honest, I've not done so yet with eating insects.....and there was the possibility of such when I was on a Mission Trip in Mexico/told of one village we'd be going to high in the mountains that had very little "meat" sources apart from insects. And I had to pray with all my might to be prepared for such---even though I really didn't want to. The only remote way I could deal with it was to picture myself eating something such as Crab or Lobster---and then remembering that was a type of anthropod/"bug" (of the sea kind) and that it would be slightly different with bugs from the land. Was still difficult....but still had to obey, especially if it meant the difference between insulting another. As the Word says:
1 Corinthians 10:26-28/
25Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience.



Luke 10:1

Jesus Sends Out the Seventytwo

1After this the Lord appointed seventy-two[ others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. 2He told them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. 3Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. 4Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road. 5"When you enter a house, first say, 'Peace to this house.' 6If a man of peace is there, your peace will rest on him; if not, it will return to you. 7Stay in that house, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.
On the Mission Field, this is very much a STRONG reality....and I'd be curious as to how some of the Messianic Jews on this forum would choose to handle themselves. Would you be open to the Lord doing radical things in another nation/eating what they place before if that's all you had available---especially if you knew the fellowship God would bring out of it would be amazing? Would you require others to prepare Kosher food for you when it comes to being on the Mission Field? Or if they had nothing available in advance, would you stay home?
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Unread 8th May 2011, 03:11 AM
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I know I'm being stupid to answer this but no one (but me) ever claimed that I'm super bright.
Personally.....obeying the kosher laws has little to do with clean and unclean. It has to do with obedience. God said don't eat it and that's something I can obey.
God wants a daughter to be pleasing to him. I want to be pleasing to him. There are many things that can accomplish this, some are tangible, some are not. Those that are, why should I not follow them?
As far as many of the things that went on 3500 years ago or even 2000 years ago, it's neither here nor there for me. I'm not in a position to even consider whether I should have had to obey or not, they are no longer viable or they are for people in the Land.
But if it's for a woman, a wife, a mother I can obey these. Do I do it for salvation? No. Favor? no. Just to be a pleasing obedient daughter.
As far as clean and unclean - quite frankly, I'm past the unclean stage of the woman stages, it's highly unlikely I'll be around any deceased persons, I don't do my own slaughterings of feed animals and I don't hunt for food or pleasure, tzara'at is no more and never was in America, what have I missed???? Oh I don't do alot of walking on the gound to step on a live bug or little frog or lizard to kill it and have it on the bottom of my shoe and not know about it (I walk on the sidewalks and as little as possible at that with a roller walker in front of me to ward off any itsy bugs and ants before my feet get to them) - I don't think I need to worry too much about unclean dead things.
My focus isn't on what I don't need to worry about but on what I can do to be pleasing to my Heavenly Father.
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Unread 8th May 2011, 03:19 AM
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Originally Posted by yedida View Post
I know I'm being stupid to answer this.
but no one (but me) ever claimed that I'm super bright.
.
Who said that you were stupid? You're fine in my book...and I think you're very intelligent, personally.

Personally.....obeying the kosher laws has little to do with clean and unclean. It has to do with obedience. God said don't eat it and that's something I can obey.
I can see that, though I don't see anywhere that God ever said kosher laws were covering all types of animals...and thus, one cannot say that all animals were in view when it came to kosher laws. Plants included when it came to the laws discussed...


God wants a daughter to be pleasing to him. I want to be pleasing to him. There are many things that can accomplish this, some are tangible, some are not. Those that are, why should I not follow them?
I agree that we should be pleasing. However, as it does not seem to be anywhere in scripture showing that keeping Kosher laws was ever something meant to be a means of pleasing God by itself...and as it concerns the narrative of Acts 11 and Acts 15, unless one takes that seriously when it comes to the Gentiles never being commanded to keep Kosher and the Jews realizing that they themselves could not keep all of the commandments, then one has an issue (IMHO).


As far as many of the things that went on 3500 years ago or even 2000 years ago, it's neither here nor there for me. I'm not in a position to even consider whether I should have had to obey or not, they are no longer viable or they are for people in the Land.
Understood....



But if it's for a woman, a wife, a mother I can obey these. Do I do it for salvation? No. Favor? no. Just to be a pleasing obedient daughter.
Of course..



As far as clean and unclean - quite frankly, I'm past the unclean stage of the woman stages, it's highly unlikely I'll be around any deceased persons, I don't do my own slaughterings of feed animals and I don't hunt for food or pleasure, tzara'at is no more and never was in America, what have I missed???? Oh I don't do alot of walking on the gound to step on a live bug or little frog or lizard to kill it and have it on the bottom of my shoe and not know about it (I walk on the sidewalks and as little as possible at that with a roller walker in front of me to ward off any itsy bugs and ants before my feet get to them) - I don't think I need to worry too much about unclean dead things.
Nonetheless, as the Kosher laws themselves were often dependent upon being within the Land of Israel and with the priesthood set up for examination when one was made unclean, its interesting whenever it comes to others saying they wish to keep them since there's no possible way to even do so fully in the times we live in.


Even with other laws, there are things to consider. For those Messianic women who attempt to be Torah observant, its odd to discuss "Torah" since there's no way that they can observe the Laws they say all must follow.....as there is no longer a priest who can offer sacrifices to make her "clean" again, after childbirth.

People may trip on the issue...but all of the discussion reminds me of how Jesus could touch a woman with a discharge of blood (Mark 5:25-34, Matthew 9:20) who was ceremonially unclean (Leviticus 15:25-28) and not permitted to enter the temple section reserved for women nor was she permitted to be in public without making people aware that she was unclean. Her hemorrhaging would have cut her off from many social and religiopus relationships. And in seeing Jesus, she was desperate. When she touched Jesus, she technically rendered him ceremonially unclean (Leviticus 15:19-23), but Jesus is greater than ANY Purity Laws...for he makes her clean by HIS Power instead of becoming unclean Himself (Mark 1:41, Mark 5:41). Jesus made clear to the woman that her faith in Him made here both physically and spiritually healed....and the woman's faith in Jesus for physical healing at the same time becamse faith in him for salvation from sin.

If it was possible for her despite being in the times she was, how odd it is when people in our times act as if Jesus somehow has LESS power to make one clean unless they operate within the bounds of an OT Law that cannot be fulfilled anyhow due to their not being an Aaronic Priesthood set up/all of the civil aspects of the Law in place for our time. Jesus is truly superior....and as it stands, its interesting to see how that often played out in his own life. In Matthew 8:2-4, where he healed a leper, its interesting to see how when Jesus touched him he was healed and Jesus did NOT become unclean. That's striking, in light of how the OT provided specific guidelines for the examination and treatment of those with a variety of skin diseases, generally called leprosy, many of which were highly contagious (Leviticus 13-14)----for not only was leprosy a disease, but it made the leper as well as anyone who touched him ceremonially unclean (Lev 13:45-46, Numbers 5:2-4, etc). Jesus was far stronger than any of that


My focus isn't on what I don't need to worry about but on what I can do to be pleasing to my Heavenly Father
Always a cool focus to have.
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Unread 8th May 2011, 03:46 AM
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You went off on a tangent again. I had already said stated that "what can be observed should be observed." If there is no priesthood, then those areas are obviously not in the discussion.
I actually think that there are more that we cannot observe now than that we can. The things that are for the Land, such as the agricultural are not incoumbant (?) on someone here in Ga but I do believe that God would honor and bless the farmer who followed the law. Clothing - I honestly can't tell you if it's even possible here in Atlanta Ga 2011 for someone who doesn't weave and sew her own clothing. I do the best I can to follow the not mixing but I don't stress my self out, that wouldn't be faith. And for sure whatever is not of faith is sin. So, when in doubt, switch the placque to faith and just keep truckin'.
I'm not legalistic in this whole thing. I will not do what I know I shouldn't do on purpose but I don't stress over things either. Just the other day, for a few minutes I thought I was eating a new taco that had bacon in it. i wasn't happy, but I wasn't gonna get all upset either just because I'd been more hungry than careful (turned out the crispies were fritos - YEA!!!!).
Anyway, I think you're misreading most of us here. We're not of the legalistic sort, but we are Torah observant where we can be. Where we can't be we don't obcess over it.
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Originally Posted by yedida View Post
You went off on a tangent again.
Incorrect--as the reality is that you already did.... I was addressing your tangent from the OP subject as I am forced to do again here. For you did not address the OP topic of Elijah and the Law not being something that was inflexible...nor did you deal with the post concerning how to handle onself on the Mission field when there's no such thing as Kosher meals available for a long time and all one has to eat is what's set before you.

Sincerly, Please do not make accusations that you yourself have already done. ..as it comes off disingeninous. For it's one thing to avoid a point entirely...but its quite another to go on making a secondary point and then say someone's not on "topic" when they address where you already went semi-off topic rather than addressing the issue directly. Again, the main point was discussing how those saying one should follow Torah fully do not address where even the Lord Himself shows clear times in the Torah where he actually commanded saints to go counter to what the Torah said....as seen in the examples of Elijah, Ezekiel and others. Samson is another one to consider, as I've brought him up elsewhere when it comes to seeing how often the Law was violated by him and yet on many occassions it makes clear that the Lord orchestrated it to meet his own ends. The first example can be seen in how Samon's parents objected to his marrying the Philistine woman he fell "in love" with in Judges 14:1-11...seeing that (1) it was against God's law (Exodus 34:15-17, Deuteronomy 7:1-4, Judges 3:5-7, etc) and (2) the Philistines were Israel's enemies. Marriage to a hated Phillistine would be a disgrace to Samson's family.....and yet Samon's father gave in to Samson's demand and allowed the marriage. The text of scripture makes clear that despite Samon's error, it was somehow "Of the Lord's Will" that he did so...and the Lord used this since he was seeking an opportunity to confron the Philistines...and God still chose to work it out (Judges 14:4).

Another example can be seen in Judges 14:6-8 where the Spirit of the Lord came upon Samson in power so that he'd be able to kill a lion that attacked him. Later, when he came across the carcass, he saw that amongst all of the of the dead meat there were bees/honey. Samon was bound to a Nazirite vow (Judges 13)--and the vow stated that ANYTHING unclean was strictly off limits (Leviticus 11:24-25).

One cannot think Samson didn't know any better, as he was raised by godly parents who would have taken great pains to teach him the finer points of the OT Law. Samson knew the rules.....but he didn't care. He ate the honey...and to make matters even worse, he defiled his own PARENTS by giving them honey yet not telling them where it came from (Judges 14:9). That is a sign of selfishness....the Spirit of God working through Samson and yet Samson using the power given for wrong-doing---just as it can happen with ANY other gift of the Spirit (i.e. blessing, prophecy, etc).

Another example to consider can be seen in Judges 14:19, where Samson acted impulsively in making a foolish riddle. He didn't count on the Philistines not playing by his rules---and when they threatened his wife, the text says that he was angry. In response, he used His special gift God gave him for SELFISH Purposes...such as revenge/murder of thirty men to pay off a debt. As a result of his pettiness and abandoning of his wife for a time (Judges 14:19-20), she was given to another man.....and when he randomly showed up to her house, he took offense and decided to take revenge AGAIN---counter to God's commands on revenge ( Leviticus 19:17-19 ). The incident with the foxes/their tales being set on fire to burn the agriculture of the Philistines comes immediately after----leading to the death of his wife/her father. It also led to innocent Israelites bearing the full force of the Philistines for Samon's actions (Judges 15:6-13).

Outside of him, there's also the example of David, as it concerns him and how the Showbread comes in, IMHO, when Jesus was discussing the issue of what was more "lawful". When he was hungry for bread, clearly there was a breaking of one law regarding the showbread to feed him..and though his doing so was wrong, a greater need was met

As the Word states:
Matthew 12

Lord of the Sabbath

1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."

3He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests.
Mark 2:22-24


As seen in Matthew 12:1-6 and Mark 2:22-24, Jesus was accused of violating the Sabbath by eating grain from the fields..and he then brought up the situation of David. Concerning David’s situation, Leviticus 24:5 makes clear that only cohanim were allowed to eat the bread of the Presence set aside for display before the ark in the House of God (tabernacle). 1 Samuel 21:5 recounts how King David and the priest Achimelekh violated this mitzvah of the WRITTEN Torah---which the P'rushim would accept as more authoritative than a rule in the Oral Torah. Jesus made clear that to do good/save life is God’s greater law (Leviticus 19:18, Matthew 12:1-8, Luke 6:1-5, Matthew 12:9-14, Luke 13:10-17, Luke 14:1-6, etc).

The same situation seems to be clear in the text of Luke 10:25-39 when Jesus spoke of the Good Samaritan and how the Priest/Levite were unconcerned with the half-dead man on the road since they felt that uncleanliness was something they couldn't afford since contact with them would cause them to become "defiled" by touching a dead body/blood itself and the wounded as they were on their way to "minister" in the Levitical system ( Numbers 19:10-12 Numbers 19 /Haggai 2:12-14 Haggai 2 , Leviticus 15:18-20 Leviticus 15 )---even though that was not something which should have kept them from preserving life since protecting/aiding others was more important than one's own ritual purity according to the Law. And the hero of the day in the parable was one who was considered to be "unclean"/in violation of the Law...and that was a Samaritan. He was the one who was truly a neighbor....

I had already said stated that "what can be observed should be observed." If there is no priesthood, then those areas are obviously not in the discussion.
What you stated was noted...if actually reading fully/in context of what was shared.

On the subject of priesthood I would also say that its not just about having a priesthood available...but also realizing where the purposes of the priesthood are no longer even necessary to continue on in light of what Christ has done...what He fulfilled in His sacrifice/blood shed and what has been made in the New Covenant. If others are for the mindset that the goal is to go back to the fullness of how the Levitical system was set up, then they may not be understanding its full purpose and how it was meant to point to the Savior rather than continually be in the role of one.

I actually think that there are more that we cannot observe now than that we can. The things that are for the Land, such as the agricultural are not incoumbant (?) on someone here in Ga but I do believe that God would honor and bless the farmer who followed the law.
But the blessing, for the farmer wishing to follow the Law on the basis of blessing coming from the Law, would also be based upon doing the Law fully. Granted, one can learn principles from the Law that can apply even when one may not be bound to keep it all as they did in the Old Covenant.....


Clothing - I honestly can't tell you if it's even possible here in Atlanta Ga 2011 for someone who doesn't weave and sew her own clothing. I do the best I can to follow the not mixing but I don't stress my self out, that wouldn't be faith. And for sure whatever is not of faith is sin. So, when in doubt, switch the placque to faith and just keep truckin'.
Understood....

I'm not legalistic in this whole thing. I will not do what I know I shouldn't do on purpose but I don't stress over things either. Just the other day, for a few minutes I thought I was eating a new taco that had bacon in it. i wasn't happy, but I wasn't gonna get all upset either just because I'd been more hungry than careful (turned out the crispies were fritos - YEA!!!!).
Hilarious....


Anyway, I think you're misreading most of us here.
We're not of the legalistic sort, but we are Torah observant where we can be. Where we can't be we don't obcess over it
Disagree...as I don't think one has to be "legalistic" to be doing something unnecessary when it comes to discussing what is or isn't the goal.
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Unread 8th May 2011, 04:34 AM
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Okey we can end the discussion. You are not messianic and you're in a messianic Judaic forum. We're not gonna agree.
I didn't talk about Elijah because getting fed by Ravens or not is not the issue.
If God wants to ding a ling me on the head and tell me to eat a honey-baked for the next week, as long as he provides the funds (they're expensive) I'll have no problem. I don't hate honey-baked hams. And if he re-ding a lings me and says I gotta share it with my furry babies off their plate, well I'll just have to trust that he'll keep everything as safe and "clean" as possible but I'm not gonna say "no" to a real life God ding-a-ling. (I"m not a prophet, he's gotta go to extra efforts to get me to believe it's really Him, He knows this, we're good.)

Anyway, I thought I was fuzzy hours ago, I'm beyond fuzzy now - it's all just kinda a big white blur. Hopefully, sleep is in the near future.....
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Unread 8th May 2011, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by yedida View Post
Okey we can end the discussion. You are not messianic and you're in a messianic Judaic forum. .
Incorrect--again. As said before, I go to a Messianic Fellowship--with Messianic friends/family and Jewish believers who I roll with. Though I have not had experiences SOLELY within Messianic Judaism, its where I'm aligned with and enjoy---specically the camps that have no problem working with differing camps within the world of Christendom and that are not solely about what happens within the Jewish worldview. Other Jewish believers are of the same mindset when it comes to having a Hebraic worldview and yet also enjoying/learning from differing camps---and I've shared this on a myriad of occassions, be it in discussing how Jewish culture is within Regaee culture ...Hip Hop culture, or even Indian culture (concerning Indian Jews, as seen in the thread entitled Cochin & Hindu Hebrews: Are most Messianic Jews familar with Indian Jewish Believers?. ) and many other things. Whether it agrees with the version of Messianic Judaism YOU hold to is inconsequential since there are plenty others supporting EXACTLY what has been said by myself here and I've shared that with others. Moreover, I study the Torah/seek to walk by it as it instructs....including on what Paul and the other apostles discussed when it comes to the New Covenant... as many Messianics hold to. Of course, however, you've already shared you don't like Paul ( as seen here previously in our conversations) --which is another issue in/of itself and one that many within Messianic Judaism have addressed when it comes to needlessly trying to avoid what Paul wrote on in the NT and his example.


But that's for another day..


As said before, there are plenty of other Messianic Fellowships making clear that being Messianic is NOT about being Jewish...just as there are Messianic Gentiles and others apart of Messianic fellowships. You may disagree if you wish--but anyone can throw a tantrum rather than deal with scripture. You have not dealt with scripture yet, even though many other Messianics have brought up the same issues that have been brought up in the OP. Therefore, one can do better than trying to retort "You're not Messianic" simply because they disagree. For that's akin to one saying to another who's African-American "You're not Black!!!" simply because they have differing views on President Obama than does other camps within Black culture. Whether it be Dr.Michael Brown, Tony and Michael Wray, Marshall Beber and many others, again, what has been said in the OP is something that is not beyond Messianic Judaism or what Messianic Scholars have said. One who may be of interest would be a man known as Alan Hirsh--author of a book called "The Forgotten Ways" and many others. He is Jewish and one of the men who is my heros, seeing how he often works in very rough areas that many do not wish to touch. He also has a brother named Lawrence Hirsh who also does work with the Jewish community and has gotten in trouble for being "unorthodox" in some ways...and for more, one can go online/investigate his ministry of Lawrence Hirsch | Celebrate Messiah or see the article entitled [PDF] Jesus-Believing Jews in Australia: Celebrate Messiah as a Case Study. For more on Alan, one can go here, here , here or here.

One can also go here:




Outside of that, I would request that there be a willingness to deal with the OP issue rather than running from a simple point:
  • Did Elijah break the Law when he ate food from unclean birds? And did not others go against what was stated in the Mosaic Code within the Torah (by GOD'S own Command ) on multiple occassions---be it with Elijah, Ezekiel, David, Hosea (in marrying a prostitute) and many others?
Its straight-forward enough...



And for more on the subject of Elijah..

With the identity of Elijah---there are many other views people have as to the significance of his eating from ravens/unclean birds---and one of the biggest reasons is the speculation that he was a priest. Some say that he was a Benjamite, 1 Chronicles 8:26-28 / 1 Chronicles 8--and a priest. Louis Ginzberg is someone to consider, for when Louis Ginzberg died in 1953, he was recognized as the world's outstanding scholar in the field of Talmudic learning...and on Eljah, he equated him with Phinehas the grandson of Aaron(Exodus 6:24-26 / Exodus 6 ). And because of Phinehas zealousness for God, he and his descendants were promised, “a covenant of lasting priesthood” (Numbers 25:12-14 Numbers 25 ). Therefore, Elijah is a priest as well as a prophet. For the reference, one can go online and look up Louis Ginzberg's book entitled Legends of the Bible.( Jewish Philadelphia: Publication Society of America, 1956. p 589 ). Also, one can go online to the site known as "Jewish Encylopedia" for more....as seen in their article entitled " JewishEncyclopedia.com - ELIJAH " ( //www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?letter=E&artid=245 )


With Elijah, one can understand the difficulty of many Rabbis, arising from the circumstance that Elijah should be fed by ravens, which were unclean animals. Those of them who take the literal translation comfort themselves with the fact, that the ravens at least brought him levitically clean food, either from one of the 7,000 in Israel who had not bent the knee to Baal, or from the table of Ahab, or from that of Jehoshaphat. No one knows 100%. But the ultimate issue is that the provision for Elijah was miraculous. In this also there were lessons of great significance to Elijah (especially when considering God's strange messengers/the fact that God could have easily made the weather change for Elijah/found a way to give food from a different source. For later Elijah was directed to go to Zarephath---which Jesus made clear when it came to announcing His Mission/the Kingdom of God in Luke 4:26 /Luke 4:19----where God had "commanded" for him even a more strange provisioner than the ravens. He chose to use a poor, almost starving widow, and she a Gentile....

The city of Sarepta (or Zarephath) was not only a heathen city, outside the bounds of Israel, midway between Sidon and Tyre, but actually within the domains of Jezebel's father. The prophet, who was not safe from Jezebel in Israel, would be safe within Jezebel's own country...as Ahab had been earnestly searching throughout his own land and in all neighboring countries 1 Kings 18:9-11 1 Kings 18. Hiding under the noise of his enemies, Elijah would be securely concealed in the land most hostile to Elijah's mission, and most friendly to Ahab's purposes. Cast out of his own country and by his own people, the story of Elijah makes clear that God can find a safe refuge for His servant in most unlikely circumstances......where most we might have expected it. That the hosting of Elijah was a distinguishing honor given to the Gentile widow----shows that God had purposes of glory beyond the bounds of Israel, 2 Kings 17:4, unbelieving as it was/pressumptious of its own status as God warned against ( Deuteronomy 9:4-6/ Deuteronomy 9 ) - in the language of Paul, that He was not the God of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles (Romans 3:28-30 / Romans 3 ). And with Elijah having to go to the jurisdiction of that city, which was inhabited by Gentiles, and God's providing for his prophet, first, by an unclean bird, and then by a Gentile, whom the Jews esteemed unclean,that all seemed to go as a type/preview of the calling of the Gentiles/ rejection of the Jews....as seen in Romans 11:3



We're not gonna agree.
Not concerned with whether or not you agree--as the issue is at least DEALING with the scriptures within the Torah.

I didn't talk about Elijah because getting fed by Ravens or not is not the issue.
Wrong, as the man was referenced by the Lord in Luke 4 when it came to announcing his mission amongst to the Jewish people (which got them in an uproar) when he referenced what occurred with the Lord working with Gentiles...and on the isssue, as the Torah is to instruct us, one must be consistent and true to what the Torah says if claiming its for instruction. One does not get a "free-pass" in ignoring Elijah...or going on a tangent when it comes to his example and then skipping it to say its not "an issue"--for that's a cop out.


If God wants to ding a ling me on the head and tell me to eat a honey-baked for the next week, as long as he provides the funds (they're expensive) I'll have no problem.
Good--as that's all that was asked in the OP when it came to Elijah's example and others. That could have been answered far earlier.

I don't hate honey-baked hams. And if he re-ding a lings me and says I gotta share it with my furry babies off their plate, well I'll just have to trust that he'll keep everything as safe and "clean" as possible but I'm not gonna say "no" to a real life God ding-a-ling. (I"m not a prophet, he's gotta go to extra efforts to get me to believe it's really Him, He knows this, we're good.)
Cool to know---as there are other Jews and people who've been in similar situations and have been willing to go the distance as many others in scripture did when it came to provision from wild places. Thus, the POINT of the OP and discussing real life...especially if being on the Mission field.


Anyway, I thought I was fuzzy hours ago, I'm beyond fuzzy now - it's all just kinda a big white blur. Hopefully, sleep is in the near future....
Then one simply needs to sleep.
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Last edited by Gxg (G); 10th May 2011 at 09:02 PM.
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Unread 8th May 2011, 05:04 AM
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i sent a pm maybe 10 mins ago
what are you doing up so late?
my excuse is insomnia
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