I don't believe in the fire torment pit of hell.

Originally Posted by Rdr Iakovos

Once again:
"they have no rest night or day."
Your witness.

Okay. First, I was asking about the phrase "smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever." Now you've hit me with another phrase and no explanation... so...

I'm not sure if we're talking past each other or if you are saying that the phrase "no rest day and night" somehow indicates for us that the phrase which appears in the previous sentence is not an idiomatic expression.

Perhaps you could clarify that for me.


In the meantime, I have a couple questions about the sentence "There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image" (Rev 14:11)

Does this event take place in hell?

Is there "day or night" in hell?

Is there a literal, physical "mark of the beast" and are there people who will literally put the mark on themselves? (v. 9)

If so, isn't the passage (vv. 9-11) talking about something that happens to those specific people and not everyone?

If not, then doesn't that mean that this whole passage is not to be read literally?

Ok, one thing I don't see you as is dumb. I don't know where you got that from, but I apologize if my responses gave you that vibe. It's quite clear that you are intelligent.
Not like my opinion about that means anything.

I appreciate that. I recognize your intelligence, too. Which is why I would like to engage in discussion with you. I will try not to make snarky comments while doing so. In return, I would just ask that you give me the benefit of the doubt and not respond to my questions as though I am trying to trap or trick you. I ask them because I want to know and understand your position, not as a rhetorical device to assert my own.

[quote=Timothew;57294531]It's a Satanic Lie. "Surely you won't die."
Genesis 3:4

I don't believe in the fire torment pit of hell.

Editted to add: Read Posts 2 & 3 before you tell me how wrong I am. Thanks a bunch!

What difference does it make to anyone's salvation whether we believe in the eternal torment of fire or not?
Did you post any Scripture from Maccabees?
4 Maccabees 9.9:

but you, because of your bloodthirstiness towards us, will deservedly undergo from the divine justice eternal torment by fire.’

Irene: Hopefully, the following will help to open your eyes.

"For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it." (Isaiah 30:33)

The prophet Isaiah spoke of a place named Tophet that was ordained of old to be set afire, like a stream of brimstone, by the breath of the LORD. You see, there's no need for "magic" for a lake of fire to appear...merely the breath of the LORD. Where exactly then is Tophet? There's no need to guess, for we read:

"And they have built the high places of Tophet, WHICH IS IN THE VALLEY OF THE SON OF HINNOM, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that is shall no more be called Tophet, nor THE VALLEY OF THE SON OF HINNOM, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place." (Jeremiah 7:31-32)

Tophet, which was ordained of old to be set afire, like a stream of brimstone, by the breath of the LORD, is in the valley of the son of Hinnom or in "GEENNA" (Gehenna). "Geenna" (Gehenna), as you're probably already aware, is one of three Greek words that is translated as "hell" in the New Testament and it is the transliteration of the Hebrew term "Gehinnom" or the valley of Hinnom.

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1067.htm


1067 géenna (a transliteration of the Hebrew term, Gêhinnōm, "the valley of Hinnom") – Gehenna, i.e. hell (also referred to as the "lake of fire" in Revelation).

Let's pinpoint this even further. Where is "the valley of the son of Hinnom" or "Gehenna"? Once again, there's no need to guess, for we read:

"Thus saith the LORD, Go and get a potter's earthen bottle, and take of the ancients of the people, and of the ancients of the priests; And go forth unto the valley of the son of Hinnom, WHICH IS BY THE ENTRY OF THE EAST GATE, and proclaim there the words that I shall tell thee." (Jeremiah 19:1-2)

The valley of the son of Hinnom or "Gehenna" is by the entry of the east gate. With these things in mind, let's consider the words of Jesus Christ, Who said:

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom fo God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." (Mark 9:43-48)

You will notice that Jesus Christ mentioned "hell" three times in this portion of scripture. In all three cases, the Greek word that is translated as "hell" is "geenna" which is the transliteration of the Hebrew term "Gehinnom" or the valley of Hinnom. You will also hopefully notice that in all three instances Jesus equated unquenchable fire and non-dying worms with "geenna". This is not the first time in scripture where such terminology is used. In fact, Jesus was quoting from the Old Testament prophet Isaiah, who, under Divine Inspiration, wrote:

"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, AND LOOK UPON THE CARCASES OF THE MEN THAT HAVE TRANSGRESSED AGAINST ME: FOR THEIR WORM SHALL NOT DIE, NEITHER SHALL THEIR FIRE BE QUENCHED; AND THEY SHALL BE AN ABHORRING UNTO ALL FLESH." (Isaiah 66:22-24)

Now, we're getting somewhere. Now, we're all the way up to the new heavens and the new earth. All flesh will come to worship before the Lord Jesus Christ at this time. If need be, I'll be more than happy to show you, FROM SCRIPTURE, where Jesus Christ will be situated at this time. He will be seated upon the throne of David in Jerusalem. In other words, all flesh will have to come to Jerusalem to worship before Him. As they go forth from doing such, they shall look upon the carcases of those who have transgressed against Christ, for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched. So much for Timothew's false assertion that their bodies will be "consumed". The worms will continually feast upon their carcases and their carcases, which will be in unquenchable fire, will be in the sight of all who leave from Jerusalem. It's no stretch of the imagination to consider that those who come to worship before the LORD will enter and exit through the eastern gate. You know, the gate by which "Gehenna" is located. Anyhow, that's an introduction to how I see things playing out in the end. Even into the new heavens and new earth, we see the lake of fire still burning. Like the Bible says, UNQUENCHABLE FIRE. Some things for you to hopefully ponder as you study this topic.

Take care.

PKB! Think I'll go make a wiki entry that's exclusive to Rdr. He does sometimes make good points ...

Agreed. That's where I get irritated: when I get told we are dishonestly making up the whole notion of an eternal Hell when we just spent the last 54 pages explaining from Scripture why there is one.

"Hello" says the angel with the voice of a trumpet!

__________________
God's mercy doesn't expire when you do!


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Take a closer look at the context and timeline of Rev. 14. What you are quoting takes place during the great tribulaton and BEFORE the battle of Armageddon (Rev. 16), before the return of Jesus (Rev. 19:11) and before those who received the mark of the beast are cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20). Remember in Genesis 19:24 the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was accomplished by fire and brimstone so it is a means of God pouring out His wrath upon men on earth. Keep in mind in the great tribulation all manner of horrors will be visited upon the wicked, they will want to die but can't. The fire and brimstone of Rev. 14 is just part of the measure of God's wrath upon men living on earth and not some future reference to torment in the lake of fire.

Irene: Now that I have a little more time, I thought that I'd take the opportunity to give you another example of where a "lake of fire" appears where it previously hadn't been without the need for any "magic". I believe, based upon scripture, that we can pretty accurately pinpoint what will happen at Christ's return. Along these lines, I believe that, at Christ's return, He will make a "pitstop", as it were, at Edom or Idumea (they're the same place). Please consider the following:

"Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winevat? I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come." (Isaiah 63:1-4)

Here, we actually see the prophet Isaiah having a conversation with the pre-incarnate Christ. Isaiah asks Who it is that is coming from Edom and Bozrah with garments that are stained red with blood. Jesus replies that the day of vengeance has come and that He is treading the winepress of God's vengeance alone. Please compare this with what we read in relation to Christ's return in the book of Revelation:

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." (Revelation 19:11-16)

I would heartily suggest to you that this is the same exact "vesture dipped in blood" and the same exact "treading the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God" that Isaiah prophesied about. If this is indeed the case, and I'm personally convinced that it is, then I believe that we can also conclude that Edom and Bozrah will be a part of the aforementioned "treading" as they're specifically mentioned in Isaiah's prophecy. Please keep this possibility/probability in mind as we read the following:

"Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a great sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day: the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever." (Isaiah 34:1-10)

A few things:

1. Here, the Lord's indignation is upon ALL NATIONS and His fury upon their armies. To me, this certainly sounds like the battle of Armegeddon.

2. We see "all the host of heaven being dissolved, and the heavens being rolled together as a scroll and all their host falling down as the leaf falls off from the vine and as a falling fig from the fig tree". As you're probably already aware, we see this same exact language carried over into the New Testament where we read such things as:

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Revelation 6:12-17)

What Isaiah prophesied has yet to come to pass. It will not come to pass until the sixth seal is opened and the great day of the Lord's wrath has come. With this timeframe in mind, let's consider my third point from what we read in Isaiah chapter 34:

3. The Lord's sword shall "come down upon Idumea (Edom)...for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea (Edom)".

Once again, we see the Lord apparently making a "pitstop", as it were, at His return, in Edom and Bozrah. With this in mind, let's now consider my fourth point...the main point that I was getting at in all of this:

4. "And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever."

Once again, we see where the present condition of a land is altered greatly at the Lord's return. Like I said, no need for "magic" for "pools" or "lakes of fire" to appear. When Christ returns, He is returning "in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". (II Thessalonians 1:8) This "fiery return" was prophesied by Old Testament prophets as well. One such example would be found in Isaiah, where we read:

"For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebukes with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many." (Isaiah 66:15-16)

God isn't playing games and we ought not be playing games, either. Quite frankly, I wouldn't want to be in the shoes of those who seek to "soften" God's punishment of the wicked at Christ's return. Once again, some things for you (and others) to hopefully ponder along the lines of the topic of this thread.

Take care.

BondiHarry: You're in great error. First of all, the book of Revelation isn't always given in chronological order. In other words, at times, John shows the same judgments from different angles...he sees it and gives it from one angle and later on sees it and gives it from a different angle. In between these different angles, other things occur, so, like I said, it's not always in chronological order. Secondly, we have every reason to believe that when we read how the wicked "shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb" that both the holy angels and the Lamb, Jesus Christ, will be present here on the earth to witness such. There are numerous other scriptures which speak of Christ's return with His holy angels, so there is absolutely no reason to believe that this "presence" is actually apart from their "presence", with both Christ and His holy angels still in heaven at the time of this wrath. Lastly, both this reference in Revelation chapter 14 and the reference from Revelation chapter 20 speak of "fire and brimstone", "torment" and "having no rest day nor night", so we have every reason to believe that they are describing the same exact place.