Unorthodox TheologyA forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. Full Preterism, Unitarianism)
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Why Jerusalem is Mystically Called Sodom and Egypt
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I've been following this thread and now I'm going to jump in a little.... forgive me if I address something already addressed... some of the posts are really long and I didn't read every word.
Originally Posted by JSGuitarist
Now if sin were finite, then how could their torment be infinite? That would make God both unjust and cruel. But we know that the torment is infinite, it is forever felt; and if in the justice of God, even the slightest sin is deserving of a tormenting eternity in hell, we must assume that sin is an infinite evil. Were it any less, God would be unjust. And so, sin is infinite.
Okay, leaving out the circular nature of your argument...
Can you please explain what is meant by sin being infinite?
Do you mean that the sin continues for eternity? How can that be? Sin isn't an entity.
As far as I can tell, there is actually only one thing that can accurately be described as infinite and that is God.
Also, I don't get why people think that death, ultimate absolute death, isn't a severe enough punishment?
IDK, it just seems to me, while reading through some of the posts here, that people go a long way around to try to justify the idea of eternal punishment.
I've always wondered why people think "the second death" really means "eternal torture."
If infinite sin deserves infinite punishment, then the man must be infinitely sensible.
Ah, that's the crux, isn't it?
Why do we assume that "infinite sin deserves infinite punishment?" Wouldn't eternal death (cessation of existence for all time) be a fitting punishment, even for 'infinite sin'?
Again, though it depends on what is meant by "infinite sin." How can sin be said to be infinite? In what way is it infinite?
A person commits a sin, or many sins. But the commission of those sins is not infinite, the person cannot go on committing the same sin for the rest of eternity.
Also, if eternal torment is the "wages" of "infinite sin" then how could Jesus' physical death possibly be considered a sufficient sacrifice? His death was finite. How could it overcome that which is infinite?
It's the logical end of the points described above. Refute the eternal torments of hell, then the infinite evil of sin will be refuted.
It seems to me that the first few posts by the OP did a very good job of refuting the "eternal torments" of hell.
Besides, the circular reasoning is enough refutation in itself, really.
Hell is eternal because sin is infinite because hell is eternal....ad infinitum.
4. Once again, the fact that the second death consists of eternal conscious torment
Where does Scripture describe the Lake of Fire as a place of eternal torment, though?
If the Lake of Fire is the same place as the place of torment where souls go after physical death... then why does God resurrect the souls and judge them, just to send them back (along with their new resurrected bodies) into the same hell they were already in? And why is that called the "second death" when no where previously in Scripture had "eternal torment" ever been called that?
You also presume that whereas the first death (where physical life has ended) is an ending, the second death will not be an ending of the spirit/soul although God tells us to fear Him who can DESTROY body and soul in hell which leads to two conflicting and un-Biblical beliefs, EITHER all men will be saved OR all sinners will suffer eternal cognizant torment (this latter because many men will simply not believe that what God says will happen in punishment of the sinner is sufficient and so they make the leap that casting the sinner into the 'eternal' lake of fire as punishment means they will be eternally punished there ... the same goes for 'the smoke of their torment' or 'the worm that does not die' to suggest that they will burn forever but not be consumed which is absurd (any human body cast into a fire will be reduced to ashes ... why should a divine fire be any different?).
There's any number of examples of people that would rather fall out of existence altogether than suffer pain. There are those in extreme pain, those who suffer strong depression, those whose lives have fallen apart all around them, who have lost everything, who are tortured cruelly in prisons by enemies, those who are so overcome by guilt from their sin that they wish they could vanish out of existence (and some, like Judas, attempt remedy by suicide). Sadly, even righteous men sometimes desire this, like Job did, cursing the day he was born (Job 3:1). It would be a dream come true to them to vanish and lose all sense of consciousness. There were times when I lacked assurance of salvation that I would have preferred this to living because I felt so little hope. I've known others who have felt the same, and it is the hopeless wish of those who have died outside of Christ, and even if they were to never enter heaven, they would do anything for such a relief as to be annihilated, because it's better to them than what they now have.
Do I presume that the second death consists in eternal conscious existence? Only because Scripture does. I see all the OP scriptures and I see the references to death and destruction, and the fact is that when Scripture speaks more explicitly and clearly on what the second death and eternal life each consists of. To not account for those more clear writings on the matter is dishonest and is contempt for God's Word.
Yes things are sin because of the harm they provide to self, but that is not the ultimate reason that things become sin. The definition of sin you provide puts the focus on how sin is a sin against ourselves, but the truth is that all sin is a sin against God, and that is the sole factor in what makes it sin. There was nothing inherently destructive, to the best of my knowledge, about eating from the tree of knowledge, good and evil apart from the fact that God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat from it. God's complaint against Adam and Eve was, "Have you eaten from the tree I commanded you not to eat from?" The serpent tempted Eve into a denial of God's Word, a contempt of His command as unreasonable, and got her to believe that God was deceiving her. David in Psalm 51 says, even though he committed a very wicked act against himself, Bathsheba and her husband Uriah, "Against you [God] alone have I sinned." In fact, when Christ summed up the Law, He said, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul and all your strength," and the second being like it, "love your neighbor as yourself," and that these two were the summation of all the Law and the Prophets. And so, every sin is primarily against God, even when directed toward ourselves or other people. Many of the Bible's commands are moral in nature, but other times it was simply, "I said not to do it, and so don't do it," such as with the Israelites not wearing clothes made of two kinds of fabric, or not lighting fires on the Sabbath, or not sacrificing livestock that had defects; things not necessarily evil in themselves, but God said not to do them. Even failure to believe in Christ is a sin directly against God and pointed at Him. "He who believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only son of God" (John 3:18 ESV). The punishment cites the command as its own reason, but in the same passage attributes an unwillingness to believe to a love of darkness and hate for the light (John 3:19-21), which ultimately translates into a hatred for a knowledge of God, and therefore a hatred of God Himself. This is why the punishment of sin must necessarily be so severe, because it is an affront to God, who is infinitely good, but all sin is contempt against this infinite and perfect goodness. Any creature that would sin against such goodness must necessarily be a monstrously wicked creature.
As for the bodies not being consumed, God spoke to Moses through a bush that was on fire but was not consumed (Exod. 3:2), so for a body to burn forever without being consumed isn't a stretch. Consider too that the rich man in Luke 16 was not consumed though being burned. Aside from that, Scripture is very plain, as I showed in the verses in post #36, that hell will consist in an eternal torturing and misery that will last day and night, forever and ever. That cannot happen if they are consumed into nothing because as I have argued, that torture ceases to be torture when the subject loses consciousness and becomes incapable of feeling and sensing its misery.
__________________ "Let theologians note the following distinctions. Christians were decretively justified from all eternity: efficaciously so when Christ rose again from the dead; actually so when they believed; sensibly so when the Spirit bestows joyous assurance; manifestly so when they tread the path of obedience; finally so at the Day of Judgment, when God shall sententiously, and in the presense of all created things, pronounce them so." - Arthur W. Pink
Last edited by JSGuitarist; 21st April 2011 at 03:54 PM.
Reason: Reference is to post #36, not #41
As for the bodies not being consumed, God spoke to Moses through a bush that was on fire but was not consumed (Exod. 3:2), so for a body to burn forever without being consumed isn't a stretch. Consider too that the rich man in Luke 16 was not consumed though being burned..........
What about Revelation 20:9
Reve 20:9 And they ascended upon the breadth of the land and surrounded the camp of the Saints and the City, the beloved and descended fire out of the heaven from the God and consumed/devoured/katefagen <2719> (5627) them. [1 King 18:37/Luke 9:54/Reve 20:9]
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G2719 matches the Greek κατεσθίω (katesthiō), which occurs 20 times in 15 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV
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It's because the infiniteness of sin was not my main point; if anything, that is a side issue to the main point I was trying to get across originally is that those in hell actually feel the torment, are not dead in the sense of having no consciousness, but are actually fully conscious and experience real pain. Prove that hell is not infinite, that the torture is not sensible, and that there are no degrees of punishment in hell, then you will successfully break the circle, and you will prove that sin is not infinite. But for myself the true evil of sin is the applicatory point of the doctrine, and not the theological substance I was aiming for. I put that first, but to me it is the result of what the Bible speaks about hell. At least to me, one cannot be true without the other being true.
But I know that you are not trying to disprove the infiniteness of sin in the first place, but the doctrine you are aiming to disprove is that hell consists of a felt and sensible misery, in which the subject actually feels and experiences that torment forever. But for the doctrine of hell to mean anything, that is the conclusion that we must run to--that our sin really is that terrible, that God really hates sin that much, and that is what strict justice deserves; and if God is just, He must deliver accordingly. And we know the scope of sin by the measure of justice He considers necessary to fit the crime. In concerns to what you are originally trying to disprove, the infiniteness of sin is not my primary point, and is secondary; yet to bring out what influence the doctrine is supposed to have on us, that is the reason I would stress and insist on it.
I am not saying that God does not punish sin. I have said over and over that He does. The question is, what is the punishment. The bible says the punishment, or the wages, of sin is death. You feel that is not enough. Too bad, God evidently feels it is enough, because that is what the bible says the wages of sin are.
Also I can easily prove that hell is not infinite. If Hell were infinite it would extend infinitely long in every direction. That would mean that everything is hell. Everything is not Hell. So Hell is not infinite.
Also hell is the term used for Sheol, which is not infinite. Sheol is the grave.
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Also I can easily prove that hell is not infinite. If Hell were infinite it would extend infinitely long in every direction. That would mean that everything is hell. Everything is not Hell. So Hell is not infinite.
I think it was meant that hell is infinite in duration.
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I've been following this thread and now I'm going to jump in a little.... forgive me if I address something already addressed... some of the posts are really long and I didn't read every word.
Okay, leaving out the circular nature of your argument...
Can you please explain what is meant by sin being infinite?
Do you mean that the sin continues for eternity? How can that be? Sin isn't an entity.
As far as I can tell, there is actually only one thing that can accurately be described as infinite and that is God.
Also, I don't get why people think that death, ultimate absolute death, isn't a severe enough punishment?
IDK, it just seems to me, while reading through some of the posts here, that people go a long way around to try to justify the idea of eternal punishment.
I've always wondered why people think "the second death" really means "eternal torture."
Ah, that's the crux, isn't it?
Why do we assume that "infinite sin deserves infinite punishment?" Wouldn't eternal death (cessation of existence for all time) be a fitting punishment, even for 'infinite sin'?
Again, though it depends on what is meant by "infinite sin." How can sin be said to be infinite? In what way is it infinite?
A person commits a sin, or many sins. But the commission of those sins is not infinite, the person cannot go on committing the same sin for the rest of eternity.
Also, if eternal torment is the "wages" of "infinite sin" then how could Jesus' physical death possibly be considered a sufficient sacrifice? His death was finite. How could it overcome that which is infinite?
It seems to me that the first few posts by the OP did a very good job of refuting the "eternal torments" of hell.
Besides, the circular reasoning is enough refutation in itself, really.
Hell is eternal because sin is infinite because hell is eternal....ad infinitum.
Where does Scripture describe the Lake of Fire as a place of eternal torment, though?
If the Lake of Fire is the same place as the place of torment where souls go after physical death... then why does God resurrect the souls and judge them, just to send them back (along with their new resurrected bodies) into the same hell they were already in? And why is that called the "second death" when no where previously in Scripture had "eternal torment" ever been called that?
If I could, I would rather first refer you to what I wrote in post #36 in this thread. There I lay out verses describing three things in particular: That hell is felt, that hell is eternal, and that there are degrees in punishment. Now those are the foundational facts that I am standing on. I know I write long posts, though if you want to follow the logic of what I'm saying, it is simply this, and this is the only angle from which I would defend that proposition: Scripture testifies that hell is a felt and sensible experience, where the sufferer is completely conscious of his torment, which flies directly against the OP in the plainest fashion. Scripture testifies that hell is eternal, and it is pointless for Scripture to threaten the wicked with this if it were not worth considering. Also, hell consists in degrees of punishment, which would not be the case because there are no degrees of severity in the state of death that the OP asserts (ie. one cannot be more "dead" than another person).
In concerns to the infiniteness of sin, just this: God is just, and so he must punish in a way that is just, which means He cannot punish sin any more or less than it exactly deserves (which is why hell consists in degrees of punishment, to account for the ugliness of the crime), much the way we decide sentence lengths based on the severity of the crime, reserving capital punishment for the worst of crimes as opposed to the lightest. Now normally, when we think of justice, we think that a person should get out eventually, because if we keep a person imprisoned longer than they deserve, it constitutes cruelty (such as how the Constitution outlaws "cruel and unusual punishment"). If God keeps a man longer in hell than he deserves, then God is cruel and unjust. However, no one would vouch for a man to stay in prison shorter than he deserves, or to receive a sentence that does not match the level of severity of the crime (I'm studying for fraud investigation, and people are typically disgusted by how light the sentences are for white collar crimes despite the terrible hardships victims are put in because of them). So shorter or longer, or more or less severe than deserved, would be unjust, and so because God is just, He will not do more or less to a criminal than He deserves, which is wonderful to know.
However, jumping from there, what do we do with the fact that hell is eternal? That people abide there forever? And that they are conscious there forever, completely aware and feeling their torment? Is God unjust? Scripture then would contradict itself if these things were irreconcilable. We have to assume that if God is perfect and does not sin, and only allots justice as deserved, no more and no less, and he decides that sin is worthy of spending eternity in extreme torment, then that does not speak of God as being unjust, but of our sin as being extremely wicked.
Perhaps though I erred by saying that the sin itself is infinite, but perhaps should say the nature of sin instead. Jonathan Edwards expresses it in the sense that when he talks about the infiniteness of sin, that it is infinitely heinous. It's not the matter of a sin that continues on forever, but has to do with the nature of the one who is offended by it. I could try and engage the issue philosophically, but the truth is I'm not a philosopher and so I don't want to try to engage from that angle, though I believe that hell is eternal, that the torments are eternally felt, that there is no ceasing of existence, and so the assertion that sin is worthy of an infinitely-felt punishment stems from what Scripture says on the punishment it deserves. Is it a circular argument? Not necessarily. I think you could assert the eternity of hell from the nature of sin, and that they must either both be true or neither be true, but instead my own order of assertion is this: that sin is infinitely evil because hell is eternal, and I assume hell is eternal because I see that in Scripture. That is, because I see in Scripture that those in hell will suffer forever, sin is infinitely evil, because according to God's justice the punishment must fit the crime, and Scripture is plain on the punishment.
Really though, the point of the infinite nature of sin is only secondary to what I intended to originally prove, and this quarrel over the infinite nature of sin is only secondary to what I was ultimately trying to show, and that was not the direction that I wanted it to go, though I chose to continue to expand on it because it powerfully brings home how bad our sin against God truly is, and how much we truly need the sacrifice of His Son, and then His grace is magnified all the more by the tremendous size of the debt we have been forgiven. However, my main focus, my original intention, was to prove these three things using Scripture: Hell is felt and sensible by those there, that hell is eternal, and that there are degrees of punishment, all of which strongly testify that any idea of the ceasing of consciousness, or a cutoff in the duration of hell, is unscriptural.
Could I be yanking things from Scripture that aren't there? I don't believe I am. The Scriptures seem pretty plain on the issue.
How is it that the death of the Son of God could atone for a sin infinitely evil in nature? I would answer with another question: How valuable is the Son of God?
In regards to the second death, with those in hell being brought up to the throne only to be thrown back in, there is nobody in the lake of fire right now. Revelation 20 talks about death and Hades being thrown into the lake of fire. As miserable as the rich man was in Luke 16, it is not the encapsulation of his punishment, but only the beginning. No sentence has yet been passed, but where those who have died outside of Christ are, is no more than a man in a local holding cell before being shipped off to prison. Justice has been served for the Church through the death of Christ, yet the wicked are yet to serve their own sentences. They might have a foretaste of it in this life and in Hades.
Originally Posted by Timothew
I am not saying that God does not punish sin. I have said over and over that He does. The question is, what is the punishment. The bible says the punishment, or the wages, of sin is death. You feel that is not enough. Too bad, God evidently feels it is enough, because that is what the bible says the wages of sin are.
Also I can easily prove that hell is not infinite. If Hell were infinite it would extend infinitely long in every direction. That would mean that everything is hell. Everything is not Hell. So Hell is not infinite.
Also hell is the term used for Sheol, which is not infinite. Sheol is the grave.
Do I feel it is not enough? Only because Scripture says there is more to God's justice against sin than just the ceasing of bodily life. Were I to say that hell is not eternal in its duration, I'm flying right against Scripture and calling God a liar to His face. He tells us in His Word just what the second death looks like, and I am going to go against Him and tell Him, "I don't believe that"? At that point I make Him a liar, because I don't believe what He tells me.
Scripture says that the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. It says that the fire is not quenched, and the worm does not die. Isaiah asks, "Who among us may dwell in the everlasting burnings?" The same terms that describe the eternity of their torment are the same terms that describe the eternity of God and eternal life of the saints. Whatever you want to say about geography, Scripture testifies that its sufferers are there forever, and are eternally conscious of their torment.
Whatever you want to say about Sheol, Scripture is very plain on these things, and they are spelled out clearly in post #36, and no one has answered my Scriptural support so far:
- The sufferers in hell are in conscious torment
- They suffer an eternal duration in conscious torment
- They suffer in a degree that is reflective of the severity of their sin
- Therefore, they are not "dead" in the sense of having no consciousness
I have to assume that you have no real answer to this though. So far no one is taking on the Scripture that I have used for these positions. The main point, my main refutation to your position, has been completely side-stepped, and nobody has shown me that I have mishandled Scripture in the above regards. Instead there has been an obsession with a philosophical sideshow that is not even the main point. However, this is the testimony of God from Scripture.
__________________ "Let theologians note the following distinctions. Christians were decretively justified from all eternity: efficaciously so when Christ rose again from the dead; actually so when they believed; sensibly so when the Spirit bestows joyous assurance; manifestly so when they tread the path of obedience; finally so at the Day of Judgment, when God shall sententiously, and in the presense of all created things, pronounce them so." - Arthur W. Pink
It's a Satanic Lie. "Surely you won't die."
Genesis 3:4
I don't believe in the fire torment pit of hell.
Timothew, what is die?
What does death mean in the Scriptures?
It's not physical death because God doesn't even call that death, He calls it sleep.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Mar 5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth. Mar 5:40 And they laughed him to scorn. But when he had put them all out, he taketh the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entereth in where the damsel was lying.
Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
God puts these things in His little book for a reason and not because He likes the sound of His own voice.
God's words are not idle, they are meaningful and alive!
The reason God doesn't call physical death death is because it is only the shadow.
The physical is always the shadow and spiritual is always the real.
It is wrong to think the that physical death means being tortured in fire while conscious for all eternity but it is equally wrong to think that physical death means spiritual death as well.
The problem is because people 1, don't pay attention when they read the bible. 2. assume everything is physical. 3 Interpret a verse of scripture of itself.
God tells us what true death is and there is 2 of them that are mentioned and neither of them is physical.
1Ti 5:5 Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day. 1Ti 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Dying to Yourself is what the physical act of baptism symbolizes.
You go under the water as Yourself and the old You dies (spiritually) but Christ comes up in place of the old man.
Christ is the new man and He lives not You.
__________________ God's mercy doesn't expire when you do!
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I am not saying that God does not punish sin. I have said over and over that He does. The question is, what is the punishment. The bible says the punishment, or the wages, of sin is death. You feel that is not enough. Too bad, God evidently feels it is enough, because that is what the bible says the wages of sin are.
Also I can easily prove that hell is not infinite. If Hell were infinite it would extend infinitely long in every direction. That would mean that everything is hell. Everything is not Hell. So Hell is not infinite.
Also hell is the term used for Sheol, which is not infinite. Sheol is the grave.
You and others may want to check out this post, by urs truly , concerning the "death and hades" cast into the LoF
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Why Jerusalem is Mystically Called Sodom and Egypt
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(I might take a break after this post)
If I could, I would rather first refer you to what I wrote in post #36 in this thread. There I lay out verses describing three things in particular: ... [cut for length]
Okay. But you seem to be working from a different definition of "hell" than I think Scripture attests to.
Sheol and Hades are both spoken of in Scripture. Both are often called "hell".
But Revelation 20 tells us that death (Sheol) and Hades will both be cast into the Lake of Fire and that is the second death.
Hades (hell) will be destroyed. Otherwise, what would be the point of putting them in the unquenchable fire?
So, we seem to have an internal conflict in Scripture. Some verses that suggest hell is eternal and some that say it isn't.
When such a seeming contradiction presents itself, one of the first things we should re-examine is the translation.
In concerns to the infiniteness of sin, just this:...[cut for length]
If we go based on how we feel about what is just, or what our legal system deems just (which seems to me to be what you are doing), then I think it would go the other way, actually. No judge or jury, even in our society, would be called "just" for condemning a person to eternal torment for crimes committed during a life lasting only 70 years. Even temporary torment would be considered unjust, not to mention cruel and unusual.
That being said... your reasoning seems backward to me. We should start with good exegesis of the Scriptures and leave concerns of what "we" (by whom I think you mean the general society) would do if we were God.
However, jumping from there, what do we do with the fact that hell is eternal? That people abide there forever? And that they are conscious there forever, completely aware and feeling their torment?
I think we should re-examine our interpretation of Scripture when challenges like this crop up.
Maybe "eternal" is a bad translation? Maybe it's hyperbole (like "I'm starving, I haven't eaten in forever")?
Maybe not, but it's worth it to consider it.
Is God unjust? Scripture then would contradict itself if these things were irreconcilable. We have to assume that if God is perfect and does not sin, and only allots justice as deserved, no more and no less, and he decides that sin is worthy of spending eternity in extreme torment, then that does not speak of God as being unjust, but of our sin as being extremely wicked.
I agree. God is just and so if God did that, I would not be found faulting Him. I would assume He knew better than I.
That being said... there may be good reasons to believe that God does not, in fact, intend to do that. And if He does not intend to, then I would not be found faulting Him.
Perhaps though I erred by saying that the sin itself is infinite, but perhaps should say the nature of sin instead. Jonathan Edwards expresses it in the sense that when he talks about the infiniteness of sin, that it is infinitely heinous.
Oh, but Edwards was just using a figure of speech, then? Infinitely heinous sin is a very different thing than infinite sin.
It's not the matter of a sin that continues on forever, but has to do with the nature of the one who is offended by it.
So... since God is infinite, He has to punish sin for eternity?
That doesn't follow.
I could try and engage the issue philosophically, but the truth is I'm not a philosopher and so I don't want to try to engage from that angle, though I believe that hell is eternal, that the torments are eternally felt, that there is no ceasing of existence, and so the assertion that sin is worthy of an infinitely-felt punishment stems from what Scripture says on the punishment it deserves.
I get it. You believe hell is eternal and so you don't believe it ever stops.
The problem is that your argument hasn't really dealt with the verses talking about "destruction" and "death".
Is it a circular argument? Not necessarily. I think you could assert the eternity of hell from the nature of sin, and that they must either both be true or neither be true, but instead my own order of assertion is this: that sin is infinitely evil because hell is eternal, and I assume hell is eternal because I see that in Scripture.
Okay, you're really just saying the same things you said before.
I don't mean to be a pest... but you still haven't given a definition, or description. Instead of defining "infinite sin" you just replaced it with "nature of sin". Leaving that term undefined...
That is, because I see in Scripture that those in hell will suffer forever, sin is infinitely evil, because according to God's justice the punishment must fit the crime, and Scripture is plain on the punishment.
Yes, sorry man but it's still circular. Let's break it down:
* You see in Scripture that people will suffer forever;
* You see in Scripture that God is just;
* You see in Scripture that judgment is proportional to the crime;
*[Sin is infinite] or [God is infinite] or [because of the nature of sin]
>>>Therefore, the punishment for sin is eternal.
The conclusion of your argument is essentially the same as the first premise. That's what makes it circular.
Really though, the point of the infinite nature of sin is only secondary to what I intended to originally prove, and this quarrel over the infinite nature of sin is only secondary to what I was ultimately trying to show, and that was not the direction that I wanted it to go,
That's fine. But it does seem to be an integral part of your defense of eternal torment as fitting punishment...
Perhaps if we understood what was meant by that, we could discuss it.
Could I be yanking things from Scripture that aren't there? I don't believe I am. The Scriptures seem pretty plain on the issue.
I've learned many a time that things that often seem very plain in Scripture turn out to be a lot more "through a glass darkly".
How is it that the death of the Son of God could atone for a sin infinitely evil in nature? I would answer with another question: How valuable is the Son of God?
So, are you going to define how sin is infinite, after all?
In regards to the second death, with those in hell being brought up to the throne only to be thrown back in, there is nobody in the lake of fire right now. Revelation 20 talks about death and Hades being thrown into the lake of fire. As miserable as the rich man was in Luke 16, it is not the encapsulation of his punishment, but only the beginning. [cut for length]
Yeah, but it's called the "second death". I mean... you have to read into that term to conclude that it really means "eternal torment". It's not the natural ("plain") reading. Words lose all their meaning if we do stuff like that.
Were I to say that hell is not eternal in its duration, I'm flying right against Scripture and calling God a liar to His face.
Whoa, settle down a bit there. It's not as serious as all that. Questioning your understanding of what Scripture says or means is not calling God a liar. It's admitting your own human fallibility.
He tells us in His Word just what the second death looks like,
Can you do me a huge favor and go ahead and post that quote from Scripture for me?
and I am going to go against Him and tell Him, "I don't believe that"? At that point I make Him a liar, because I don't believe what He tells me.
Exaggerate much? This really isn't conducive...
Scripture says that the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. It says that the fire is not quenched, and the worm does not die. Isaiah asks, "Who among us may dwell in the everlasting burnings?" The same terms that describe the eternity of their torment are the same terms that describe the eternity of God and eternal life of the saints. Whatever you want to say about geography, Scripture testifies that its sufferers are there forever, and are eternally conscious of their torment.
Scripture also says that sinners will be destroyed, though.
So, really, the ambiguity is there in Scripture. We have only to decide how to resolve it.
Whatever you want to say about Sheol, Scripture is very plain on these things, and they are spelled out clearly in post #36, and no one has answered my Scriptural support so far:
- The sufferers in hell are in conscious torment
No argument there.
- They suffer an eternal duration in conscious torment
There have been refutations as to this: First, the OP and all the verses provided stating the contrary, then people who have noted that a reasonable and possible translation of "eternal" would actually be 'a long time; an age, etc'.
- They suffer in a degree that is reflective of the severity of their sin
No argument there.
- Therefore, they are not "dead" in the sense of having no consciousness
This is a moot point if torment in the Lake of Fire isn't really everlasting.
I have to assume that you have no real answer to this though.
You can assume whatever you want. The truth is, I had questions to ask you, not an argument to assert. And, people actually have addressed your points.
To be perfectly honest, I'm undecided on this topic. That's why I followed the thread for a while and then chimed in to ask questions.
So far no one is taking on the Scripture that I have used for these positions. The main point, my main refutation to your position, has been completely side-stepped, and nobody has shown me that I have mishandled Scripture in the above regards. Instead there has been an obsession with a philosophical sideshow that is not even the main point. However, this is the testimony of God from Scripture.
You know... you brought up the "infinite sin" thing AND you made it an integral part of your argument.
The fact that you find yourself unable to explain it (which is understandable) is not our fault, though. You can't expect to put something like that out there and not have people ask you to explain it.
, concerning the "death and hades" cast into the LoF 
Exaggerate much? This really isn't conducive...
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