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  #61  
Unread 6th April 2011, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Zongerfield View Post
80% of this country identifies themselves as 'Christian'- we do indeed live in a Christian nation. Our country was founded on Judeo-Christian values. The words " that they are endowed by their Creator " are not plucked from thin air, they have meaning, they have resonance, and they have a source - biblical scripture. The majority of our founding fathers were Christians, save for Jefferson a deist and Franklin an atheist. But for the most part our founding fathers were Religious and invoked God on a daily basis, to say that our country wasn't founded on Judeo-Christian values is intellectually dishonest and borderline absurd. I know many of you probably proudly read Hitchens and his ilk and they have a way of re-authoring history to show a secular genesis of this country but all of that is a lie or a misrepresentation of the facts.


Additionally, I am not suggesting we execute disobedient children but I am suggesting we think seriously about the direction our country is headed. Thousands of unborn children are murdered each day and most of us stand by and watch with indifference. There's that old saying, ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing'

Read and reflect, and pray my friends. It will do you good. As for your ill will toward me, and your general antipathy toward me, I forgive you and I will continue to pray for you.

Bless you all.
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

Treaty of Tripoli - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And stop acting like a martyr. I don't want your patronizing forgiveness.
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  #62  
Unread 6th April 2011, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Zongerfield View Post
80% of this country identifies themselves as 'Christian'- we do indeed live in a Christian nation. Our country was founded on Judeo-Christian values.
Which are...?

The words " that they are endowed by their Creator " are not plucked from thin air, they have meaning, they have resonance, and they have a source - biblical scripture.
Chapter and verse?

The majority of our founding fathers were Christians, save for Jefferson a deist and Franklin an atheist. But for the most part our founding fathers were Religious and invoked God on a daily basis, to say that our country wasn't founded on Judeo-Christian values is intellectually dishonest and borderline absurd.
So let's talk about what those values were...

I know many of you probably proudly read Hitchens and his ilk and they have a way of re-authoring history to show a secular genesis of this country but all of that is a lie or a misrepresentation of the facts.
So why not set the record straight with some actual facts: which values specifically were you referring to?

Additionally, I am not suggesting we execute disobedient children but I am suggesting we think seriously about the direction our country is headed.
Then you've already lost clirus' support -- fortunately, she still has yours.

Thousands of unborn children are murdered each day and most of us stand by and watch with indifference. There's that old saying, ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing'
There's another old saying: "Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."

Murdering the born is more fun, isn't it?

Read and reflect, and pray my friends. It will do you good. As for your ill will toward me, and your general antipathy toward me, I forgive you and I will continue to pray for you.
At least until clirus finds an excuse to have us executed -- then you will cheer.

Bless you all.
Let's see how long that lasts.
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  #63  
Unread 6th April 2011, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by clirus View Post
Atheists do not like the concept of "The wages of sin is death", because that means they should be executed for their evil deeds.

Atheists are usually socialists and pacifists, that oppose war and the death penalty, because they are the ones that should be executed. Opposition to the death penalty is a survival concept for evil people.
Can't get more explicit than that! Hey Zongerfield, you on board?
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Unread 6th April 2011, 08:31 AM
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Atheists do not like the concept of "The wages of sin is death",
I think you're confusing "do not like" with "do not believe." Death is a result of living. Simple as that.

because that means they should be executed for their evil deeds
Wow. Just...wow.

PS - It drives Atheists crazy when you show America was founded as a Christian Nation, even though America did lie to the Muslims in the Treaty of Tripoli.
I'm almost convinced you're an atheist in disguise doing satire.
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  #65  
Unread 6th April 2011, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by clirus View Post
Atheists do not like the concept of "The wages of sin is death", because that means they should be executed for their evil deeds.
And you're the one who will gladly carry out the executions -- that's the part that concerns people.

Atheists are usually socialists and pacifists, that oppose war and the death penalty, because they are the ones that should be executed. Opposition to the death penalty is a survival concept for evil people.
Whereas wholesale executions is a concept for...

I do not believe Christians that allow evil people to advocate, condone and participate in sinful activity are in God's will.
Whatever should happen to such "Christians"?

The Bible does state that disobedient children should be brought before the elders. I believe those that reject the concept of bringing disobedient children before the elders are rejecting God. In present day, legal system that would be to bring the disobedient child before a judge.
So who are "the elders," and what would they do that a judge would not?

I have never advocated disobedient children should be executed every time they are brought before a judge as the Atheists would state, but one must always keep open the option that some children are so disobedient that they should be executed.
Which children? What kind of disobedience deserves executing a child?

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 "If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear."
So basically -- execute the prodigal son?

Christians need to read the Old Testament to understand how God intended a nation be governed in order for the nation to remain a Christian Nation. If Christians fail to govern, then I believe God will take the nation from the Christians.

Even the New Testament of the Bible, state that a man that does not provide for his family is worse than a infidel. Are Christians to condone people that are infidels or should Christians support Civil Law that deals with infidels, even to the point of execution?
So you support executing infidels?

I advocate the three levels of action relative to evil, and that means the death penalty and war should be kept open as an option.

I believe the Bible teaches all things should be dealt with by the following three levels of action;
1) If it is good - accept it and nourish it.
2) If it is evil - rebuke it but tolerate it.
3) If it threatens your existence - destroy it before it destroys you. This is self defense, which both the individual and society have a right and responsibility to do.
What doesn't threaten your existence, clirus? I've never met anyone more "fearful" for their continued existence than a Christian reconstructionist.



PS - It drives Atheists crazy when you show America was founded as a Christian Nation, even though America did lie to the Muslims in the Treaty of Tripoli.
How very Christian of them -- not to mention you for accusing them of lying.
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  #66  
Unread 6th April 2011, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by clirus View Post
Classical Atheism and Liberal Christianity versus Conservative Christianity

This thread has been a very explicit statement of the Atheism and Liberal Christianity versus Conservative Christianity.

I am proud when Atheists call be a bigot and criticize me for taking a strong stand on a literal interpretation of the Bible.

Atheists do not like the concept of "The wages of sin is death", because that means they should be executed for their evil deeds.

Atheists are usually socialists and pacifists, that oppose war and the death penalty, because they are the ones that should be executed. Opposition to the death penalty is a survival concept for evil people.

I do not believe Christians that allow evil people to advocate, condone and participate in sinful activity are in God's will.

When I say, the only thing necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing, I am stating that the good men that are doing nothing are people that call themselves Christians.

The Bible does state that disobedient children should be brought before the elders. I believe those that reject the concept of bringing disobedient children before the elders are rejecting God. In present day, legal system that would be to bring the disobedient child before a judge. I have never advocated disobedient children should be executed every time they are brought before a judge as the Atheists would state, but one must always keep open the option that some children are so disobedient that they should be executed.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 "If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear."

Christians need to read the Old Testament to understand how God intended a nation be governed in order for the nation to remain a Christian Nation. If Christians fail to govern, then I believe God will take the nation from the Christians.

Even the New Testament of the Bible, state that a man that does not provide for his family is worse than a infidel. Are Christians to condone people that are infidels or should Christians support Civil Law that deals with infidels, even to the point of execution?

PS - I do not agree with faith guardian position that Christians should be pacifists. I believe Christians have a responsibility of waging war on those that would advocate evil concepts. If Christians had not fought in WW II, Norway would probably be nothing more than an iron mine for the Nazis. I believe faith guardians concept of Christians is the Liberal Christian position.

I advocate the three levels of action relative to evil, and that means the death penalty and war should be kept open as an option.

I believe the Bible teaches all things should be dealt with by the following three levels of action;
1) If it is good - accept it and nourish it.
2) If it is evil - rebuke it but tolerate it.
3) If it threatens your existence - destroy it before it destroys you. This is self defense, which both the individual and society have a right and responsibility to do.

The first two are from the New Testament of the Bible and represent the Law of Love. The third is from the Old Testament of the Bible and represents the Law of Purity/Self Defense. The New Testament deals more with personal responsibility and the Old Testament deals more with the preservation of society. The Old Testament and the New Testament together present God's Law, a means of survival for a person, a nation and a world. No one should be forced to be a Christian, but all should be judged by Civil Law based on Christian Principles. All rebuke by Christians should be based on scripture from the Bible.

Tolerance is allowing for a mistake. Too much tolerance is a mistake. Tolerance is allowing for a mistake, too much tolerance is accepting an habitual mistake (Atheistic Lifestyle of sin).

PS The theme of the Bible is a God of both Love and Righteousness. Too many people that call themselves Christians will only discuss the Love of God. I consider those that will only discuss the concept of a God of Love to be Liberal Christians.

PS - It drives Atheists crazy when you show America was founded as a Christian Nation, even though America did lie to the Muslims in the Treaty of Tripoli.

Like I said:
Originally Posted by faith guardian View Post
Well, you know there's Christian:

And then there's "Christian":
If a conservative Christian is what you are, Clirus, then there is nothing of Christ in conservatism. Jesus advocated turning the other cheek, and showing mercy to those who were guilty of sins holding the death penalty. You would kill those and more.

Not only that but you lie about me and others. Claiming I'm a pacifist when you know I am an army veteran with the rank of corporal. So not only do I say I am willing to pick up a gun for the defense of others from aggression, I have done so and will do so again if the need arises.

I do not think you know Christ. Your advocacy of these vile concepts reveal who you follow in fact.

The fruits are:
* Love - you would kill sinners for their sins, and exhibit extreme hatred for other people
* Joy - Can't speak for this. Maybe you're joyful in your advocacy of bloody murder
* Peace - You've advocated full-scale nuclear annihilation of ideological opponent nations
* Longsuffering - Three strikes and then 'off with their heads'
* Kindness - Killing? Kind? Nuclear war?
* Goodness - Again. Killing people sort of rules this out.
* Faithfulness - You are faithful to yourself, aye. But to Christ? Why, you dismiss much of what He said and did as 'liberal nonsense'.
* Gentleness - Erm. War-promotion, mass executions, police state... Gentle? Au contraire!
* Self-control - Not much exhibited in your pursuit of mass murder, Clirus.

If we are to be known by our fruits, then what are you Clirus? What spiritual power do these fruits belong to:

* Mass murder
* Arrogance
* War
* Oppression
* Ethno and egocentrism
* Social darwinism and eugenics

So if we are known by our fruits, can anyone please tell me what source these fruits tell us is involved? I've got one particular source in mind:



Edit: I should probably add this:
http://www.fstdt.com/ search for "Clirus". You'll find links to Clirus' posts confirming what I'm saying here, revealing what she's advocating almost in fullness. Although there are other posts elsewhere backing it as well. So I am not saying anything about Clirus here she has not said herself. So if anyone thinks I've broken some behavioral rules or somesuch thing - read all about it in the aforementioned link.

Here are some excerpts from former Clirusian posts:
"In order to soften up Iran, nuclear weapons should be used to eliminate all military targets, then America should take over all oil production in Iran then implement: 1)American take over of the oil and only reward the Sunni, Shiites, and Kurds when they behave properly. If they don't behave, they starve."

"do what ever it takes to win, in the shortest possible time, which includes the elimination/killing of men, women and children associated with the threat, as was done in WW II. The war should be fought in a manner so as to minimize the men and material being consumed by the government. The war should be concluded only when the threat has been eliminated."

"When the Bible calls for the execution of disobedient children, I am compelled to comply."

"Enact Absolute Paternity legislation that would execute the father of a child that fails to make child care payments for an illegitimate child."

"I believe the State has the right to either rebuke or execute homosexuals because there is health, safety and economic justification."
\edit
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Unread 6th April 2011, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by clirus View Post
Atheists do not like the concept of "The wages of sin is death", because that means they should be executed for their evil deeds.
No... that means we are all sinners and hence we all die.

Atheists are usually socialists and pacifists, that oppose war and the death penalty, because they are the ones that should be executed. Opposition to the death penalty is a survival concept for evil people.
There you have it Zongerfield. Are you going to accuse me of misrepresenting that? Clirus has stated that she believes Atheists are the ones that ought to be executed. This post should promptly be reported.

The Bible does state that disobedient children should be brought before the elders. I believe those that reject the concept of bringing disobedient children before the elders are rejecting God. In present day, legal system that would be to bring the disobedient child before a judge. I have never advocated disobedient children should be executed every time they are brought before a judge as the Atheists would state, but one must always keep open the option that some children are so disobedient that they should be executed.
Which is simply another way of confirming what we've already said: you support the existence of a legal mandate that allows for the execution of disobedient children.

Christians need to read the Old Testament to understand how God intended a nation be governed in order for the nation to remain a Christian Nation. If Christians fail to govern, then I believe God will take the nation from the Christians.
Christians don't 'own' the nation Clirus. It belongs to everyone.

Even the New Testament of the Bible, state that a man that does not provide for his family is worse than a infidel. Are Christians to condone people that are infidels or should Christians support Civil Law that deals with infidels, even to the point of execution?
Here Clirus calls for the execution of infidels. Are you paying attention Zongerfield?

PS The theme of the Bible is a God of both Love and Righteousness. Too many people that call themselves Christians will only discuss the Love of God. I consider those that will only discuss the concept of a God of Love to be Liberal Christians.
And yet we never see you discussing the God of Love at all.

PS - It drives Atheists crazy when you show America was founded as a Christian Nation, even though America did lie to the Muslims in the Treaty of Tripoli.
Except you haven't shown that at all. You make claims and then you run away when people ask you to defend them.
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Unread 6th April 2011, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by clirus
This thread has been a very explicit statement of the Atheism and Liberal Christianity versus Conservative Christianity.
That's certainly one way of looking at it, though I'm sure we conclude seperately.
I am proud when Atheists call be a bigot and criticize me for taking a strong stand on a literal interpretation of the Bible.
Of course you are, since you expect persecution and passively suspect that you're doing something incorrect when you don't receive it. You think that any criticism of your perspective by any non-believer is wound up in them hating God, or hating you (or something else completely ridiculous) and in doing so, you feel obliged to ignore any relevant criticism towards you.
Atheists do not like the concept of "The wages of sin is death", because that means they should be executed for their evil deeds.
It goes without saying that people, in general, don't like being told that they must be executed or told that they must continue living at the price of both their liberty and dignity. Why would this be of any noteworthy comment? How would you feel if under Sharia Law you were subjugated as a second-class citizen and told that you could not prostelyze?
Atheists are usually socialists and pacifists, that oppose war and the death penalty, because they are the ones that should be executed. Opposition to the death penalty is a survival concept for evil people.
This sentence does not even make any sense. I actually don't oppose the death penalty for crimes for serial killers, mass murderers and mass rapists. I also don't oppose the intervention currently going on in Libya nor would I necessarily oppose many other hypothetical conflicts. I however, don't speak of either the death penalty or war as good things that we ought to strive towards (like yourself).
The Bible does state that disobedient children should be brought before the elders. I believe those that reject the concept of bringing disobedient children before the elders are rejecting God.
Good for you. A good job that no-one has to care about your or being accounted to your hateful intolerance and totalitarian ideals.
PS - I do not agree with faith guardian position that Christians should be pacifists. I believe Christians have a responsibility of waging war on those that would advocate evil concepts. If Christians had not fought in WW II, Norway would probably be nothing more than an iron mine for the Nazis. I believe faith guardians concept of Christians is the Liberal Christian position.
What a good job you guys did for Norway. It is now one of the most secular and best places in the world to live with a bustling black metal scene.
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  #69  
Unread 6th April 2011, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by clirus View Post

I advocate the three levels of action relative to evil, and that means the death penalty and war should be kept open as an option.

I believe the Bible teaches all things should be dealt with by the following three levels of action;
1) If it is good - accept it and nourish it.
2) If it is evil - rebuke it but tolerate it.
3) If it threatens your existence - destroy it before it destroys you. This is self defense, which both the individual and society have a right and responsibility to do.
Whoa whoa whoa.... time out. What Bible are you reading? Let me ask you a question: How does this match up with the teachings of Jesus?

Did He kill? no. Take the upper-hand or "destroy before destroyed philosophy? umm no. Is this your interpretation of evil or Jesus'?

I'm starting to get the feeling that you and Zonderfield are not reading what everyone else is posting. You need to study love!

Zondy, stop forgiving everyone. No one did anything to you. If anything you may want to apologize to these people for your bigotry and condescending words. Jesus forgives sins, not you.

He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8

And for you Clirus:

"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." -John 15:12-13

Hit your books, like your telling everyone here to do.
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Unread 6th April 2011, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Zongerfield View Post
80% of this country identifies themselves as 'Christian'- we do indeed live in a Christian nation. Our country was founded on Judeo-Christian values. The words " that they are endowed by their Creator " are not plucked from thin air, they have meaning, they have resonance, and they have a source - biblical scripture. The majority of our founding fathers were Christians, save for Jefferson a deist and Franklin an atheist. But for the most part our founding fathers were Religious and invoked God on a daily basis, to say that our country wasn't founded on Judeo-Christian values is intellectually dishonest and borderline absurd. I know many of you probably proudly read Hitchens and his ilk and they have a way of re-authoring history to show a secular genesis of this country but all of that is a lie or a misrepresentation of the facts.
...all of which, while sounding very noble, doesn't alter the fact we have never been a Christian Nation. I might also point out we aren't a Jewish Nation either (just in case someone wants to say the Judeo part makes us one of the lost tribes)


Additionally, I am not suggesting we execute disobedient children but I am suggesting we think seriously about the direction our country is headed. Thousands of unborn children are murdered each day and most of us stand by and watch with indifference. There's that old saying, ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing'


seems like something for another thread.

Read and reflect, and pray my friends. It will do you good.
You're still adorable when you do this!

As for your ill will toward me, and your general antipathy toward me, I forgive you and I will continue to pray for you.
Very noble sounding...you however are the one who thinks people who don't agree with you should be executed, so as one of those people? I forgive you! You aren't the first person here at CF that wants me stood up against the wall and executed, probable won't be the last either.

Bless you all.
Thank you! You have a nice say too!
tulc(is having a pretty good day so far)
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a whole lotta trolling


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