Sovereign Agents of Salvation

fwwid · #1 28th February 2011, 10:06 PM

Let's face it, life is a test, trial brings strength, and the American dream does not exonerate us from difficulty - death does not care about your goals and dreams. God does - He sent His son. How we handle the refiner's fire not only determines our eternal fate but it is an undeniably sovereign affair...

Know this, that ev’ry soul is free
To choose his life and what he’ll be;
For this eternal truth is giv’n:
That God will force no man to heav’n.

He’ll call, persuade, direct aright,
And bless with wisdom, love, and light,
In nameless ways be good and kind,
But never force the human mind.

Freedom and reason make us men;
Take these away, what are we then?
Mere animals, and just as well
The beasts may think of heav’n or hell.

May we no more our pow’rs abuse,
But ways of truth and goodness choose;
Our God is pleased when we improve
His grace and seek his perfect love.

...God bless all of you. Heed the inticings of God's holy spirit. Direct free will and individual liberty down the path of greater disciplship in Jesus Christ and humble gratitude for the Father, His love for us, and His grace,

fwwid

bling · #2 1st March 2011, 01:33 PM

Life is not a test.

Why would God want to test us?

What are we being “tested” on?

If I “pass” the test do I get something, so I am earning something, deserving something, found more worthy than the next person with a lower score on the test?

elman · #3 1st March 2011, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by bling

Life is not a test.

Why would God want to test us?

What are we being “tested” on?

If I “pass” the test do I get something, so I am earning something, deserving something, found more worthy than the next person with a lower score on the test?

I tend to agree and do not believe the story of Abraham sacrificing his son to be divine truth. God would never tell anyone to murder their son and if he did, the proper answer would be no I will not. Life I think is an opportunity to become what God desires that we become, which of course we can never do, but can trust God to complete the task if we will start it.

fwwid · #4 1st March 2011, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by bling

Life is not a test.

Why would God want to test us?

What are we being “tested” on?

If I “pass” the test do I get something, so I am earning something, deserving something, found more worthy than the next person with a lower score on the test?

Ah, I kindly disagree, but I'll anwer your questions,

1) "Why would God want to test us?" To satisfy all justice through the exercise of our own agency in choosing to obey, or not to obey, all of the things which God has commanded us.

2) What are we being "tested" on? Our obedience to God's commands.

...At face value, you can interpret "test" to be exactly what it appears to be. However, the reality (as you may or may not see it) is that God knows everything, including the choices we make. Accordingly, the cards will fall as they may, and we will ultimately be judged according to our own internal wishes.

Knowledge of such choices does not satisfy justice. For example, Jesus Christ's intent to obey all of God's commands did not satisfy his inherent need to be baptized given it is a commandment of God (as found in scripture) - he still had to physically be baptized. In the end, (also as stated in scripture) we will all be judged according to our "works", not our beliefs, not our understanding or knowledge pertaining to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

3) "If I “pass” the test do I get something, so I am earning something, deserving something, found more worthy than the next person with a lower score on the test?"

We all "get something" We earn nothing. The outcome of an individuals' test is merely a result of actions pertaining to that individuals life on earth. In that light, the test of life (i.e. the refiner's fire) is much different then the type of test you would take to enter into dental school, for example. From the outsiders frame of reference there are tiers of scores on the test of life, some scoring higher then others, some deserving of God's blessings more then others. To the individual however, we all deserve the same thing - what we truly desire in our heart. In that light, we all get what we want = we all scored the exact same on the test.

This is what I believe. What do you believe?

Have a good day,

fwwid

elman · #5 1st March 2011, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by fwwid

Ah, I kindly disagree, but I'll anwer your questions,

1) "Why would God want to test us?" To satisfy all justice through the exercise of our own agency in choosing to obey, or not to obey, all of the things which God has commanded us.

2) What are we being "tested" on? Our obedience to God's commands.

...At face value, you can interpret "test" to be exactly what it appears to be. However, the reality (as you may or may not see it) is that God knows everything, including the choices we make. Accordingly, the cards will fall as they may, and we will ultimately be judged according to our own internal wishes.

Knowledge of such choices does not satisfy justice. For example, Jesus Christ's intent to obey all of God's commands did not satisfy his inherent need to be baptized given it is a commandment of God (as found in scripture) - he still had to physically be baptized. In the end, (also as stated in scripture) we will all be judged according to our "works", not our beliefs, not our understanding or knowledge pertaining to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

This is what I beleive. What do you believe?

Have a good day,

fwwid

I tend to agree but where in the OLd Testament was it that baptism was ordered?

fwwid · #6 1st March 2011, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by elman

I tend to agree but where in the OLd Testament was it that baptism was ordered?

Good question,

I think it would be difficult for anybody to attempt to interpret any scripture in the Old Testament as being a reference for a need to be baptized. However, Christ apparently understood it to be a commandment of God in his day and the New Testament (John chapter 3 for example) is clear in outlining the need to be baptized. We already understand grace to be conditional. The NT seems to suggest that it is 1) given to people who meet the condition necessary and that grace can be 2) taken away. A commandment such as baptism, like all God's commands, are the conditions for salvation. Like I stated before, however, we don't do them because we want the reward of salvation for ourselves, we do them because we love God, God commands us to do so, we fear God, we feel a sense of duty to Him and we are invited by the Holy Spirit to do so.

Just want to emphasize that it's fine with me if you believe something different - this is what I believe though. What is your understanding,

-fwwid

98cwitr · #7 1st March 2011, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by bling

Life is not a test.

Why would God want to test us?

What are we being “tested” on?

If I “pass” the test do I get something, so I am earning something, deserving something, found more worthy than the next person with a lower score on the test?

Genesis 22

elman · #8 1st March 2011, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by fwwid

Good question,

I think it would be difficult for anybody to attempt to interpret any scripture in the Old Testament as being a reference for a need to be baptized. However, Christ apparently understood it to be a commandment of God in his day and the New Testament (John chapter 3 for example) is clear in outlining the need to be baptized. We already understand grace to be conditional. The NT seems to suggest that it is 1) given to people who meet the condition necessary and that grace can be 2) taken away. A commandment such as baptism, like all God's commands, are the conditions for salvation. Like I stated before, however, we don't do them because we want the reward of salvation for ourselves, we do them because we love God, God commands us to do so, we fear God, we feel a sense of duty to Him and we are invited by the Holy Spirit to do so.

Just want to emphasize that it's fine with me if you believe something different - this is what I believe though. What is your understanding,

-fwwid

I think we show our love for God by being loving toward others. Matt 25:31 and following. I don't think the act of baptism is very important personally. It for me symbolizes that God will recreate us spiritually if we turn from wickedness to righteousness after we kill our own soul with our own sin.

fwwid · #9 1st March 2011, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by elman

I think we show our love for God by being loving toward others. Matt 25:31 and following. I don't think the act of baptism is very important personally. It for me symbolizes that God will recreate us spiritually if we turn from wickedness to righteousness after we kill our own soul with our own sin.

Elman,

I agree with your first statement. I think if you've read the N.T. and missed that lesson of the gospel then you've done so in the wrong spririt perhaps. We diverge in our assessment of baptism. I do believe baptism is important...

John 3: 3-5

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be aborn bagain, he cannot csee the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be aborn of bwater and of the cSpirit, he cannot denter into the kingdom of God.

...The above scriptures, in addition to the apparent concern both Jesus and John the baptist had in baptizing, and the command Christ gave to his disciples to "baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost" lead me to believe that it is necessary. I'm not a Baptist by any stretch of the imagination but I do agree with Baptists on the issue of baptism being essential for salvation.

On the flipside, I do agree with you that baptism carries important symbolism.

-fwwid

good brother · #10 1st March 2011, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by fwwid

I'm not a Baptist by any stretch of the imagination but I do agree with Baptists on the issue of baptism being essential for salvation.
-fwwid

As one who is a Baptist, perhaps I don't speak for all Baptists, I do not see it being taught nor do I preach that baptism as essential for salvation. I do believe it is very important, but in and of itself, baptism in no way brings salvation. Baptism is the public profession of your personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It is a symbolic act showing the death - burial - and resurrection, and of dying to the "old self" and being "born again" as the new creature that Christ has made.

Romans 10 states that one must confess with their mouth that Jesus is LORD, and believe in their heart that God has raised Him from the dead. This is what brings about salvation, confession and belief.

Remember the thief on the cross next to Jesus. He was never baptized yet surely he is in Heaven.

In Christ, GB