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  #41  
Unread 29th August 2011, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by yedida View Post
Seriously, if, in fact, it is truly speaking of a hell fire do you really, really thing a drop of water off Avraham's finger is going to quench his thirst or be of any comfort? Would even a full bowl of water do the trick? I don't think so...
Maybe ya should tell the rich guy that since he ask for water. Then ole "Avraham", whoever he is said they couldn't cross the ditch.
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  #42  
Unread 23rd October 2011, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Optimax View Post
Maybe ya should tell the rich guy that since he ask for water. Then ole "Avraham", whoever he is said they couldn't cross the ditch.
The rich guy could always use a pole vault

http://www.christianforums.com/t7436472-3/#post54015375
Luke 16:26 and the great "chasm/gulf".

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Colossians 2:14
Having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us.
And He hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Hebrews 2:14
Therefore then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, and He in like manner did partake to the same.
That thru the death He might take-away the one having the power of the death, that is the Devil

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  #43  
Unread 27th October 2011, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by biomystic View Post
This is getting closer to the hidden Egyptian connection within the Gospel story of Lazarus. "Lazarus" is a cognate of Eliezer and both refer to ancient Hebrews combining their Canaanite God Most High with the Egyptian highest god, Osiris, which in Egyptian is Asar or Asir, hence you get EL + Asar or Eliezer in Hebrew or Lazarus, "EL" + Osiris (Greek). Lazarus in the story is masking the Jewish religious war against Egypt by elevating the Jewish most high god, EL, Abraham's god, over Osiris, Egypt's highest god who in the story is moribund and needing EL's superior healing powers.

That Lazarus is Osiris can be seen in John's retelling of the enacted drama of the Egyptian myth of the resurrection of Osiris which happened yearly at the House of Annu, which John Judaized as "Beth" + any= Bethany.
There was a site I found sometime years ago that felt Lazarus is the one being spoken of as "the other Disciple" in John, and I created a thread on it.
It was some years back so it is now closed because of "age"
I would like to start another one up if any are interested

http://www.christianforums.com/t7282853/
Question on other Disciple John 18:15
Isn't it incredible that they so misinterpreted Jesus' words? But they did.

Nowhere in this chapter has God's Word identified and named the disciple "whom Jesus loved." t has to be one of the seven disciples who went fishing. All but two of those disciples were named. If one were Lazarus and he is referred to in verse 23, then Peter's question, Jesus' reply, and their misunderstanding of his reply can easily be explained.

Lazarus had been raised from the dead by Jesus and became one of his most dearly beloved disciples. In being raised from the dead, he had that in common with Jesus. It would explain why Peter would be wondering about him. It would also explain why the disciples thought that he too, like Jesus, would not again die. Since he had been raised from the dead, perhaps he too would live forever. They misunderstood Jesus' words because of their own misunderstanding.

A Bible study on the beloved disciple, author of the fourth gospel

Chapter 1 – THE TRUTH MATTERS
Gospel of the Disciple Whom Jesus Loved • The Integrity of the Bible • Jury Duty • Just the Facts and Just the Bible • Verify – According to the Scriptures • The Truth Is Our Goal • Bible References and Quotes • A Worthwhile Pursuit and a Helping Hand • “From Heaven, or of Men?” • The Authority of God’s Word
Chapter 2 – THE DISCIPLE WHOM JESUS LOVED: WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?
“The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved” • The “Other Disciple” of the Fourth Gospel • A Look at the Scriptures • A Latecomer? • Erased from the Bible? • A Few More Questions Before the Answers
Chapter 3 – THE EVIDENCE PRO & CON: WAS JOHN THE BELOVED DISCIPLE?
The Testimony of Scripture Regarding John • How Humble Was the Apostle John? • A Glaring Oversight? • Why Include John but Exclude the One Whom “Jesus Loved”? • The Relationship Between Jesus and John • Peter Was Foremost Among the Twelve • The Behavior and Character of John • The Bible Presents a Contrast • “And They All Forsook Him and Fled” • Courage Under Fire
Chapter 4 – A WRONG ASSUMPTION & MORE EVIDENCE: THE GOSPEL OF JOHN OR NOT?
“The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved” and the Last Supper • Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner? • Not Alone at the Passover • “After” the Supper? • Where Is the Lord’s Table? • The Foot Washing Incident • “Not of You All” • The Sequence of Last Supper Events • A Hidden Key in the Book of Acts • The Apostle John and the High Priest • If Not John, Then Who?
Chapter 5 – THE ONE WHOM “JESUS LOVED” WAS THE AUTHOR OF THE FOURTH GOSPEL
What Is God Telling Us? • Hidden in Plain Sight • Bible References to Jesus’ Love • A Sudden Appearance • Jesus’ Friend Becomes a Celebrity • The Transition • Dead Man Walking • Like White on Rice! • Been There. Done That. • The Courage Evidence • What Is a Disciple? • The Character Evidence • Does the Evidence Fit? • Resurrection Morning • The Evidence Inside the Tomb • The First Disciple to Believe • The “Linen” Effect • The Fishing Trip • The First Error • A Telltale Rumor
Chapter 6 – WHY DID THE AUTHOR WRITE THE GOSPEL? & MORE EVIDENCE OF HIS IDENTITY
The Motive? • The Fame Problem • What about Him? • Jesus Foretells Peter’s Death • The Humbleness Question • Names in Scripture • The Other Murder Plot • Which Disciple Was Known? • “Add Thou Not unto His Words”
Chapter 7 – THE BIBLE VERSUS TRADITION & MORE BIBLE FACTS TO CONSIDER
The Jury Summation • The First Disciples • Another Possibility • Mark’s Mystery Man • A Fashion Statement? • Enough Evidence? • More than a Story? • Who Was Jesus Speaking About? • In Conclusion • Where Do We Go from Here? • Respect for the Authority of God’s Word
APPENDIX
The “Other Disciple” Believed First • The Bible Versus Non-Bible Sources • A Better Bible Study Method • “The Lord Trieth the Hearts”
__________________
Colossians 2:14
Having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us.
And He hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Hebrews 2:14
Therefore then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, and He in like manner did partake to the same.
That thru the death He might take-away the one having the power of the death, that is the Devil

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  #44  
Unread 29th October 2011, 01:48 PM
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im not reading thru pages n pages but....

dont know if anyone covered this but....

interesting the name Lazarus was chosen here for this parable.

was this before Jesus raised Lazurus, or after? (that He spoke the
parable)

obviously if before, then Lazarus was INDEED, quite prophetic.

(can "u" connect the dots? some can, some cant)

H>S> lead you, lead me.

shalom.
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  #45  
Unread 29th October 2011, 02:10 PM
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consider it/this, resurrected(no pun/dis intended)

There are a large number of Christians who assume the disciple whom Jesus loved is John. However, John 21:20-25 does not tell us that John is "the disciple whom Jesus loved."

John 21:20:
Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?

John 21:21:
Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what [shall] this man [do]?"

Why would Peter address the "Apostle" John as "this man?" Why did Peter not ask Jesus "and what shall the other disciples do?" That Peter singles out John only should have caught our attention.

John 20:22:
Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me.

Jesus had just charged Peter with great responsibility when He said, "Follow me." But instead of focusing on his own responsibility, Peter began questioning Jesus on the responsibility of this "other disciple."

Jesus, in essence, said: "Peter, quit worrying about everyone else. You carry out your own responsibility. If I want this other disciple to remain unti I come what business is it of yours? Stop getting into other people's business and follow me."

John 21:23:
Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee?

Isn't it incredible that they so misinterpreted Jesus' words? But they did.

Nowhere in this chapter has God's Word identified and named the disciple "whom Jesus loved." t has to be one of the seven disciples who went fishing. All but two of those disciples were named. If one were Lazarus and he is referred to in verse 23, then Peter's question, Jesus' reply, and their misunderstanding of his reply can easily be explained.

Lazarus had been raised from the dead by Jesus and became one of his most dearly beloved disciples. In being raised from the dead, he had that in common with Jesus. It would explain why Peter would be wondering about him. It would also explain why the disciples thought that he too, like Jesus, would not again die. Since he had been raised from the dead, perhaps he too would live forever. They misunderstood Jesus' words because of their own misunderstanding.

John 21:24 and 25:
This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

This verse cannot be used to prove that John was "the disciple whom Jesus loved." The disciple of verse 24 does not necessarily refer to "the disciple whom Jesus loved." This is an unwarranted assumption Verse 24 and 25 form a unit as a closing to the Gospel.

As verse 25 so clearly states that Jesus did so many things than are written in the Word of God.
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Last edited by Alethes; 27th September 2008 at 02:30 PM
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  #46  
Unread 29th October 2011, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Yab Yum View Post
Why? Because he was a Jew and Lazarus is Eliezer, Abraham's servant, and therefore the whole parable is a covenant parable about Jews and Gentiles and has nothing to do with hell or heaven or any cosmic this or that.

Uh....this requires much more "proof" and expounding than what i've read here n elsewhere (from linguist experts) on CF
site before i can "swallow it hook, line, and sinker."

selah.
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Unread 9th November 2011, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Yab Yum View Post
Why? Because he was a Jew and Lazarus is Eliezer, Abraham's servant, and therefore the whole parable is a covenant parable about Jews and Gentiles and has nothing to do with hell or heaven or any cosmic this or that.

no

Luke 16: But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Go to Ezekiel and read about the Kings and princes of Tyrus. This is the story you seek, How G-d blessed them directly from his bossom to grow strong and powerful but they turned to a corrupt seed. And devoured people with their empire of strong armies and merchants controlling the world.

Tyrus kings and princes has all good things from G-d and they used it against him and destroyed his Covenant.

Ezekiel 27 : And say unto Tyrus, O thou that art situate at the entry of the sea, which art a merchant of the people for many isles, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O Tyrus, thou hast said, I am of perfect beauty.

Ezekiel 28 : Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Amos 1 : Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Tyrus, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they delivered up the whole captivity to Edom, and remembered not the brotherly covenant: But I will send a fire on the wall of Tyrus, which shall devour the palaces thereof.
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Unread 9th November 2011, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus View Post
I have a question. Why is this rich man in Luke 16 calling out to "father Abraham" in this verse
Thanks

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water and should be cooling down the tongue of me
that I am being pained in the flame this."
[Matthew 3:9/Acts 7:30-38]
Because it was Jewish belief that the holy men of God be they dead or alive....
...Could put a good word in to God - for those dead or alive.
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Unread 9th November 2011, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by HIM_In_Me_In_HIM View Post
dont know if anyone covered this but....

interesting the name Lazarus was chosen here for this parable.

was this before Jesus raised Lazurus, or after? (that He spoke the
parable)

obviously if before, then Lazarus was INDEED, quite prophetic.

(can "u" connect the dots? some can, some cant)

H>S> lead you, lead me.

shalom.
Great question!
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Colossians 2:14
Having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us.
And He hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Hebrews 2:14
Therefore then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, and He in like manner did partake to the same.
That thru the death He might take-away the one having the power of the death, that is the Devil

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Unread 14th November 2011, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Yab Yum Why? Because he was a Jew and Lazarus is Eliezer, Abraham's servant, and therefore the whole parable is a covenant parable about Jews and Gentiles and has nothing to do with hell or heaven or any cosmic this or that.

Originally Posted by HIM_In_Me_In_HIM View Post
Uh....this requires much more "proof" and expounding than what i've read here n elsewhere (from linguist experts) on CF
site before i can "swallow it hook, line, and sinker."

selah.
Which part...the Covenantle [which I adhere to] or the heaven and hell part

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Yeshua told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell.
Yet a thorough, unbiased examination of this story will show that the generally accepted interpretations of this passage of Scripture are erroneous and misleading. In this article, we will go through the parable verse by verse to determine what the Messiah was truly teaching.
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Colossians 2:14
Having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us.
And He hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Hebrews 2:14
Therefore then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, and He in like manner did partake to the same.
That thru the death He might take-away the one having the power of the death, that is the Devil

...............................
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