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Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum The Endtimes & Prophecy Forum for the discussion of future events. No full preterist views. Partial preterists welcomed.

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  #1  
Unread 20th February 2011, 09:11 AM
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Rapture happens AFTER Mark of the Beast

The rapture happens after the antichrist and his mark appear, but before the bowl judgments of God:

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write:`Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."
14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."
16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe."
19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses' bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs. (Rev 14:9-1 NKJ)



30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(Mat 24:30-31 NKJ)


16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1Th 4:16-17 NKJ)


52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"
(1Co 15:52-55 NKJ)


The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are consecutive. At the opening of the Seventh Seal (Rev 8:1-2) , after the 1/2 hour of silence, the angels are given Trumpets:

1 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. (Rev 8:1-2 NKJ)


At the last trump the first resurrection/rapture occurs, but this trump is not a short blast, it lasts for days, then at its end, the resurrection/rapture is seen as already accomplished in 15:2f:


7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets. (Rev 10:7 NKJ)


...

1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.
2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God.
3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying: "Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the saints!
4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested."
5 After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened.
6 And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues, clothed in pure bright linen, and having their chests girded with golden bands.
7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever.
(Rev 15:1-7 NKJ)


An Outline of this:
Rev c. 6

1st Seal (Antichrist)
2nd Seal (War)
3rd Seal (Famine)
4th Seal (Death 1/4th of earth)
5th Seal (Martyrdom)
6th Seal (Heavenly & earthly disturbances)
7th Seal (Trumpet Judgments)

1st Trumpet (1/3 Earth smitten)
2nd Trumpet (1/3 Sea smitten)
3rd Trumpet (1/3 Rivers smitten)
4th Trumpet (1/3 Sun, moon, stars darkened)
5th Trumpet (Demons forced to torment their own followers in Babylon the Great by God's decree)
6th Trumpet (God commands unwilling unholy myriads of demons slay their own followers)
7th Trumpet (First Resurrection/Rapture; Bowl Judgments)

1st Bowl (Sores on worshippers of the Beast)
2nd Bowl (All Seas smitten)
3rd Bowl (All Rivers smitten)
4th Bowl (Sun scorches men)
5th Bowl (Darkness on Beast's kingdom; painful sores)
6th Bowl (Euphrates dried up to allow WWIII)
7th Bowl (Hail; Judgment of Babylon the Great centered in Rome)



This order contradicts a too literal exegesis, its a vision like Daniel's vision, where a horn can stand for a nation, John is not describing actual entities...he is using symbolism to reveal an aspect about them.

The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are consecutive. At the opening of the Seventh Seal (Rev 8:1-2) , after the 1/2 hour of silence, the angels are given Trumpets:

1 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. (Rev 8:1-2 NKJ)


At the last trump the first resurrection/rapture occurs, but this trump is not a short blast, it lasts for days, then at its end, the resurrection/rapture is seen as already accomplished in 15:2f:


7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets. (Rev 10:7 NKJ)


...

1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.
2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God.
3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying: "Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the saints!
4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested."
5 After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened.
6 And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues, clothed in pure bright linen, and having their chests girded with golden bands.
7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever.
(Rev 15:1-7 NKJ)


This order contradicts a too literal exegesis, its a vision like Daniel's vision, where a horn can stand for a nation, John is not describing actual entities...he is using symbolism to reveal an aspect about them.

So there is literal and symbolic mixed , during the seals 1/4th die literally, but the trumpets 1/3 because death then is spiritual but eternal, more literal during the bowls.

4 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" (Rev 6:14-17 NKJ)

The sky isn't literally rolled up, the idea is sinners become aware their Judge is watching, that the evil they supposed was done in secret, as not. Hence their reaction in vv 15-17.


For example, the 5th and 6th trumpet refer to the spiritistic "mystery of lawlessness" that convinces the unsaved to follow the Beast as God. These also torment them. Hence the Death is spiritual death that results in eternal death, eternal torment in the lake of Fire with the Satan and his angels. That is the meaning of these having breastplates of hell, all they consume are destroyed (spiritually) forever in eternal flame that cannot be quenched, weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Last edited by Alfred Persson; 20th February 2011 at 11:19 AM.
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  #2  
Unread 20th February 2011, 09:56 AM
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and the wrath of God, that faithful believers are spared from,
is poured out on those that have the mark of the beast.

the time/times/half a time, is Satan's wrath, and is not the wrath that we are spared from.
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Unread 20th February 2011, 10:52 AM
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Well, you understand the first seal is the antichrist. That's a good thing.
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Unread 20th February 2011, 04:38 PM
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The rapture occur at the very end immediaely after the Tribulation at the post trib return of Christ.
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Unread 20th February 2011, 07:29 PM
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Rapture happens AFTER Mark of the Beast

I cannot make some believe but this is not correct or Biblical.

Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

You will not have to endure the tribulations or the mark of the Beast.

Are you going to dispute the Bible.
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Unread 20th February 2011, 08:03 PM
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hi PapaJP

"we" believe the bible fine .....

obviously "we" do not believe your interpretation of Rev3:10....or pre trib's general interpretation of Rev3:10.

if you are open minded about finding ALL truth,
then perhaps our words here in this thread may open another avenue of possibilities for you to consider.

the gathering to Christ (rapture) is most assuredly post trib...
and thinking that you leave the planet before the end time test,
is completely against the point.
inf act we do not leave the planet at all...


the "rapture" is when the dead are raised.

how does that fit into your pretrib theory?
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Unread 20th February 2011, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by papaJP View Post
I cannot make some believe but this is not correct or Biblical.

Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

You will not have to endure the tribulations or the mark of the Beast.

Are you going to dispute the Bible.
Actually it is you that dispute the Bible, not to mention Jesus' own prayers.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
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Unread 20th February 2011, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by papaJP View Post
I cannot make some believe but this is not correct or Biblical.

Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

You will not have to endure the tribulations or the mark of the Beast.

Are you going to dispute the Bible.
You have misread it, it is precisely because they have patiently endured through the tribulation, that Jesus will remove them from the earth before the bowl judgments test all the inhabitants of the earth.


11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.(Rev 14:11-12 NKJ)


13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
(Rev 7:13-15 NKJ)

Only the bowl judgments are poured out on the entire earth, the seals and trumpets to only a fraction, therefore the trial that tests the entire earth happens during the bowl judgments.

This seems to be alluding to Dan 12:1

45 "And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.
NKJ Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever. (Dan 11:45-3 NKJ)

Notice that puts it during the final world war, just prior to the return of Christ.

An analogy, just before God's wrath is unleashed upon the entire earth, THEN the those who endured are raptured:

38 "For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39 "and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
40 "Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
41 "Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
42 "Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
43 "But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.
44 "Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. (Mat 24:38-44 NKJ)

Same also here, that are not removed from Sodom to avoid tribulation, the saved are kept from suffering by the hand of God, wrath meant for sinners:

28 "Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;
29 "but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 "Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. (Luk 17:28-30 NKJ)


Jesus, our commander in chief, pulls out His assets, just before He attacks, lest they become collateral damage:

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
(1Th 4:15-18 NKJ)


Those who believe in a pretribulational rapture, are setting themselves up for a terrible spiritual fall...they won't understand why they weren't raptured...and when the UFO aliens claim God doesn't exist, its very likely they will fall for the strong delusion these preach.

Its better to arm yourself with the truth, and prepare yourselves for the trials that are to come...steel yourselves, get ready to die for your faith...be prepared so you are still waiting when your LORD arrives...

3 "Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them,
4 "but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. (Mat 25:3-4 NKJ)

Last edited by Alfred Persson; 21st February 2011 at 12:01 AM.
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Unread 21st February 2011, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by LetsObeyChrist View Post


Those who believe in a pretribulational rapture, are setting themselves up for a terrible spiritual fall...they won't understand why they weren't raptured...and when the UFO aliens claim God doesn't exist, its very likely they will fall for the strong delusion these preach.

Its better to arm yourself with the truth, and prepare yourselves for the trials that are to come...steel yourselves, get ready to die for your faith...be prepared so you are still waiting when your LORD arrives...

3 "Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them,
4 "but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. (Mat 25:3-4 NKJ)
In a time you think not, the son of man cometh.

Those who believe in a pretribulation rapture are watching for the coming of the son of man. They are the ones with oil in their lamps.

Maybe, you should study up on the parable of the fig tree.
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Unread 21st February 2011, 05:35 AM
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Why is it that whenever a passage in Revelation is cited as "the rapture" we never see the raptured church anywhere in the verses??? Where are they?
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Psalm 34:1 I will bless the LORD at all times: his praise shall continually be in my mouth.


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