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Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum The Endtimes & Prophecy Forum for the discussion of future events. No full preterist views. Partial preterists welcomed.

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  #1  
Unread 16th February 2011, 11:29 PM
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There is NO rapture!!!

There is NO rapture!!! No pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib! Nothing! The Bible does not teach a rapture of any kind!
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Unread 16th February 2011, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by dcyates
There is NO rapture!!! No pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib! Nothing! The Bible does not teach a rapture of any kind!
Amen!
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Unread 16th February 2011, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dcyates View Post
There is NO rapture!!! No pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib! Nothing! The Bible does not teach a rapture of any kind!
And what do you make of 1st Thess 4:15-17????????


The main two foundational scriptures used by rapture believers of any stance pre,mid or post are 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 and 1st Thessalonians 4:15-17.
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Here we see the concept of the rapture in scripture. When the dead in Christ will be resurrected and the living caught up, both to receive their new immortal, heavenly bodies.
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Unread 16th February 2011, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by 4runner View Post
And what do you make of 1st Thess 4:15-17????????


The main two foundational scriptures used by rapture believers of any stance pre,mid or post are 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 and 1st Thessalonians 4:15-17.
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Here we see the concept of the rapture in scripture. When the dead in Christ will be resurrected and the living caught up, both to receive their new immortal, heavenly bodies.
GREAT POST.
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Unread 17th February 2011, 12:00 AM
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It is legitimate to debate the timing of the rapture. All theories as to its timing are based on interpretation of the meanings of various scriptures.

But anyone who denies that there will be a rapture is denying explicitly stated scripture.

As the explicitly stated scriptures for this event have already been posted in this thread, I will not repeat them.
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Unread 17th February 2011, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by 4runner View Post
And what do you make of 1st Thess 4:15-17????????


The main two foundational scriptures used by rapture believers of any stance pre,mid or post are 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 and 1st Thessalonians 4:15-17.
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Thanks for your response, 4runner.

Where is there a 'rapture' even hinted at in this passage?!?
This is referring to our transfiguration from corruptible bodies into incorruptible and the general resurrection of the dead.

Originally Posted by 4runner
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
Originally Posted by 4runner
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Here we see the concept of the rapture in scripture. When the dead in Christ will be resurrected and the living caught up, both to receive their new immortal, heavenly bodies.
I'm sorry, 4runner, but I have to disagree with your assessment of this text. This doesn't support the concept of the rapture as it is commonly understood. Too often this is seen as describing the Christian's journey to heaven with Christ. However, the Greek word for 'meet' (apantesis), in v. 17 above, bore very distinct connotations in the ancient Greco-Roman world. It designated an event where either the emperor or some other dignitary was making an official visit to a given town or city, the citizens of that city, or a delegation of citizens, would expressly go out from the city to meet the emperor or dignitary and then escort them the rest of the way into their city. What is therefore being discussed here is not a 'rapture' where Christians are whisked off to heaven, but rather where Paul intended to comfort his audience by assuring them that they and their now-dead loved ones have indeed placed their lives in the correct hands; that is, that Jesus is Lord, not Caesar.
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Unread 17th February 2011, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Biblewriter View Post
It is legitimate to debate the timing of the rapture. All theories as to its timing are based on interpretation of the meanings of various scriptures.

But anyone who denies that there will be a rapture is denying explicitly stated scripture.

As the explicitly stated scriptures for this event have already been posted in this thread, I will not repeat them.
With all due respect, Biblewriter, all those "explicitly stated scriptures" are all derived from that one text that 4runner cited above: 1 Thessalonians 4.15-17. And when interpreted properly, the rapture doesn't appear there either.
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Unread 17th February 2011, 12:35 AM
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while i do not like the word rapture, as i believe it is misleading,
there certainly is a gathering to Christ, at the end of the tribulation events

it is detailed in many scriptures, including 1Thes4:13-forward...

but Paul even clarified the message of what happens at the Lord's return in 1Thes4,
when he wrote 2Thes2 and further explained what had to happen first...

1Cor15 and Mat24/Mar13 cover the same gathering to Christ

but the Lord is Coming here....those faithful believers alive at His Coming, shall be gathered to Him....here.
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Unread 17th February 2011, 01:28 AM
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There is an end to this flesh dispensation of time as detailed in 1 Cor. 15:51-53. However, there is no 'rapture' -- meaning a separate/distinct taking of the church. The conversion taking place when Christ returns will affect everyone, including the 'church'.
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Unread 17th February 2011, 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted by zeke37 View Post
while i do not like the word rapture, as i believe it is misleading,
there certainly is a gathering to Christ, at the end of the tribulation events

it is detailed in many scriptures, including 1Thes4:13-forward...
but Paul even clarified the message of what happens at the Lord's return in 1Thes4,
when he wrote 2Thes2 and further explained what had to happen first...

1Cor15 and Mat24/Mar13 cover the same gathering to Christ

but the Lord is Coming here....those faithful believers alive at His Coming, shall be gathered to Him....here.
Yes, right, zeke. The word 'rapture' is the Latin form of the Greek term harpagmos, which has been translated into English as "caught up."
As I've already noted, in 1 Thess 4.13-18, Paul is writing of both the 'raising to life' of the dead in Christ and of what has been all too commonly thought of as 'the rapture'. But the most pertinent phrase, hoi nekroi en Christo anastesontai proton, in verse 16, definitely has to do with the dead in Christ being raised to new life. After all, directly translated it says: "the dead in Christ will rise first." It's hard to get any more clear than that. However, in verse 17, where Paul mentions how those who are in Christ and alive at his coming, "together with them (the previously dead that Christ will bring with him) will be caught up (harpazein; or 'snatched', since the nuance it carries is of a rather violent grasping) in the clouds to a meeting with the Lord in the air," while the verb harpazein is often used in conjunction with the idea of death in ancient literature (Lucian paints the picture of a bereaved father utilizing conventional language as he cries out to his dead son: "Dearest child, you are gone from me, dead, snatched away [harpazein] before your time, leaving me alone and wretched" [Funerals 13]), it appears that the Jewish apocalyptic writers of the period used this term to refer to those people who will still be alive at the coming of the Day of the Lord. For example, in 4 Ezra we find, "It will be that whoever remains after all that I have foretold to you will be saved and will see my salvation and the end of my world. And they will see the men who were snatched up (harpazein), who from their birth have not tasted death; and the heart of the earth's inhabitants will be changed and converted to a different spirit" (6.25-26), as well as, "Lay up in your heart the signs that I have shown you, the dreams that you have seen, and the interpretations that you have heard; for you will be snatched up (harpazein) from among men, and henceforth you will live with my son and with those like you, until the times are ended" (14.8-9). Nevertheless, we should not be thinking of this in terms of believers literally rising off the ground and floating up to see Jesus descending till we all meet somewhere at cloud level. Paul is employing symbolic imagery where we do damage to the text if we take it too literally. For instance (and again, as I've already noted), the Greek word translated as "a meeting" in the Thessalonian passage, apantesis, bore the technical meaning that relatied to the visits of the emperor or other dignitaries to a given city, where the visitor would be formally met by the citizens, or a deputation of them, who had gone out from the city for this purpose, to ceremonially escort their honoured guest the rest of the way into their city. Thus, Paul is here pointing to how Christ is the true king/emperor whose return should be officially recognized by us with no less importance and pomp than would be if an earthly emperor were arriving. Except in this case, rather than merely an imperial visit, Paul informs us that Christ's return will be permanent, for kai houtos pantote syn kurio esometha, "and so (in this manner) we will always be with the Lord" (1 Thess 4.17c).
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