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  #21  
Unread 14th February 2011, 12:48 PM
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David Brider,
I don't know about you, but the God I worship is big enough to take same-sex couples being allowed to get married.
The God I worship whose testimony is the Bible, detests same sex relations as error. I am thinking of Lev 18 and 1 C 6-7 and Romans 1.

That begs the question, could you give some evidence for your god’s views?
The problem with the Sodom account in Gen 19, is there is no word that can be translated rape. The men did not seem to know they were angels, they referred to the visitors as men, wanted to know carnally, the men. If one assumes its rape, the men raping women was not called wicked, the men raping men was.
It's discrimination against same-sex couples if they're not allowed to marry.
Yes I agree, but they cant do it in Christian churches where it is recognised as sin.

It's not discrimination against Christians if same-sex couples are allowed to marry, though.
It is if its asking Christians to allow such sin in their churches.

What's evil about allowing two people of the same sex to marry each other? Seriously?
Following my references, I concur with and second the responses of He’sMyLorsAlways and soldier71
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  #22  
Unread 14th February 2011, 12:55 PM
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Yes I agree, but they cant do it in Christian churches where it is recognised as sin.
Not every church recognises it is sin though. What's wrong with allowing those churches that want to marry same sex couples to do so? No one as far as I can see is forcing those that do consider it sin to hold ceremonies.
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  #23  
Unread 14th February 2011, 01:12 PM
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poeticlurker,
Do you know anything at all about rape? Rapists don't call what they do rape. They call it sex. In a rapist's sick, twisted mind, the victim wants to be dominated sexually, though in reality they certainly don't.
The account doesn’t mention rape so your point is irrelevant.

Force? Are they breaking into people's houses and forcing men to marry men, or women to marry women? Are they enforcing privileges upon those who marry the same sex? Because straight married couples get a lot of privileges most people would never think of.
Is the government forcing LGBT groups to have ex-gay ministries minister to them? Christians can’t have same sex partnerships celebrated, the government cant start telling people what they can and cant believe.

So... allowing people to exercise their rights infringes upon the exercise to practice one's faith. How have gay rights trumped the rights of religion? Tell me how, coherently and with sources.
Unfortunately for you, homosexuality is a biological fact and is not inherently harmful- in fact a theory is that it keeps the population from growing out of control. Humans being humans, we have to reproduce to win the "war in the bedroom" (?!) and override our natural instincts. I have a hard time believing that God would create someone with a specific sin already ingrained into them. Original sin, whatever, but one specific sin, when the original Bible says so little about homosexuality?
The instincts are anatomically dysfunctional, and many scientific studies show the relations are harmful as well. Unfortunately for you not everyone agrees with you and nor will they.
Keep in mind that there are exactly 6 verses in the Bible that have anything to do with homosexuality, and all of them can be interpreted in different ways, thanks to the original Bible not being written in English.
Keep in mind that there are many which affirm and reference the faithful union God created man and woman to be in. Also bear in mind that there are no passages that support or countenance the sin in any way. So your argument there is baseless.

The same was said about black civil rights and women's rights and their positions in the church, ignoring the many denominations that have historically supported both black and female pastors.
Sadly like support for same sex partnerships, support for the slave trade crept in the church during the 18th century.
The classic "but I have gay friends!" excuse, with a slight twist that reveals you are not very tolerant at all.
With the testimony that I am tolerant of peoples having views which I reject but that many LGBT lobbies are not.
The legislation allows same-sex unions in church, not forces them. Do learn the difference.
There is a law that defends freedom of religion and a law that enforces services not to be refused on the grounds of sexual orientation.
  #24  
Unread 14th February 2011, 01:18 PM
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The UK coalition government is talking about the Big society. The mainstream Christian churches are not only proportionally significant in charity and voluntary work but significant as a whole. Nearly 1/3 of all voluntary and charity work in the UK is faith based.
The government better watch out it doesnt start dictating this stuff to the churches or they will find there less being done than before.
  #25  
Unread 14th February 2011, 01:19 PM
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Christians can’t have same sex partnerships celebrated, the government cant start telling people what they can and cant believe.
Where are you getting this from? The goverment isn't telling people what they can and cannot believe. They are saying that those churchs that believe same sex relationships are not sinful and want to hold ceremonies for them can.

So... allowing people to exercise their rights infringes upon the exercise to practice one's faith. How have gay rights trumped the rights of religion? Tell me how, coherently and with sources.
They haven't.

The instincts are anatomically dysfunctional, and many scientific studies show the relations are harmful as well. Unfortunately for you not everyone agrees with you and nor will they.
Where are these studies?

There is a law that defends freedom of religion and a law that enforces services not to be refused on the grounds of sexual orientation.
That is for businesses, not churches.
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  #26  
Unread 14th February 2011, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Phinehas2;56754961[COLOR=black
][/color]The God I worship whose testimony is the Bible, detests same sex relations as error. I am thinking of Lev 18 and 1 C 6-7 and Romans 1.


As none of the verses you mention there refer to same-sex marriage specifically as "error", they're not particularly relevant to the discussion.

That begs the question, could you give some evidence for your god’s views?


What, that God's big enough to deal with same-sex couples getting married? Yeah. He made the entire universe. He's big enough.

The problem with the Sodom account in Gen 19, is there is no word that can be translated rape.


A rampaging group of men tried to force themselves sexually onto a couple of angels. Forcing oneself sexually onto another person or people is rape. The account doesn't have to use the word "rape" for it to be obvious that that's what it's talking about.

Yes I agree, but they cant do it in Christian churches where it is recognised as sin.


If the law changes, those Christian churches who are happy to marry same-sex couples will be allowed to do so. You will still be entitled to your opinion that for them to do so is sin. Who do you perceive as being discriminated against in such a situation?

David.
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  #27  
Unread 14th February 2011, 01:28 PM
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This is, in my opinion, brilliant news! The government should never have banned civil unions in houses of worship in the first place. Surely it's the job of the church, and not the government, to decide who can and cannot get married in their institution?

Anyway, a step in the right direction for the Lib Dem minister in charge of this.
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  #28  
Unread 14th February 2011, 01:28 PM
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Psudopod,
Where are you getting this from? The goverment isn't telling people what they can and cannot believe. They are saying that those churchs that believe same sex relationships are not sinful and want to hold ceremonies for them can.
As I explained this is not the concern, the concern is gay groups trying to use the equality law against religions that can not tolerate this sin.

Where are these studies?
Well you claimed they aren’t harmful so lets first see the studies that support what you claimed. And when I have dismissed them as faulty would you really be convinced with the studies I present?

Just recently we had a drugs advisor to the government appointed and within a couple of weeks dismissed because they found out he had done studies that were negative to homosexuality. I hope the government has calculated it has enough gays to do everything once it has disabled all Christians.
That is for businesses, not churches.
Sorry we don’t believe you, marriages and civil partnerships would be deemed services.
  #29  
Unread 14th February 2011, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by PolarQuest View Post
What is going on in the U.S is very similar right now. 2 states allow unions and 3 others for some kind of Gay legal something.
It's more than that. 5 states (MA, IA, CT, VT, NH) and D.C. allow same sex marriages. 10 other states (CA, CO, HI, IL, ME, NJ, NV, OR, WA, WI) allow some kind of civil union, domestic partnership, or partner benefits. A few others recognize same-sex marriages from other states, even though they can't yet be performed in-state. So 30% of the states now give some type of legal recognition to same-sex unions. The trend is clear.
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  #30  
Unread 14th February 2011, 01:37 PM
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Psudopod,
Where are you getting this from? The goverment isn't telling people what they can and cannot believe. They are saying that those churchs that believe same sex relationships are not sinful and want to hold ceremonies for them can.
As I explained this is not the concern, the concern is gay groups trying to use the equality law against religions that can not tolerate this sin.
Evidence for this? Evidence that even if someone does try to push it, they would have any chance of success?

Well you claimed they aren’t harmful so lets first see the studies that support what you claimed.
No I didn't. I don't believe they are, because I see nothing inherently harmful in homosexual relationships that isn't a risk in hetrosexual ones, but I didn't claim to have any studies.

And when I have dismissed them as faulty would you really be convinced with the studies I present?


Depends how you dismissed them. If you showed the studies were incorrect in their conclusions, or badly carried out, I would respect that. If you simply dismissed them as "I don't agree with them so therefore they're wrong" I'd have no respect for that because you are simply dismissing the issue ideologically.

Just recently we had a drugs advisor to the government appointed and within a couple of weeks dismissed because they found out he had done studies that were negative to homosexuality. I hope the government has calculated it has enough gays to do everything once it has disabled all Christians.
See here. I agree with Evan Harris' take on the matter - he shouldn't have been fired for holding opinions on something unrelated to his post, but he wasn't someone who should have been given that position in the first place.

BBC - Mark Easton's UK: Why was Dr Raabe sacked?
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