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  #331  
Old 7th April 2011, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by doubtingmerle
Doherty has a degree in ancient languages (Greek and Latin), and years of study, and he disagrees.
Ah. I initally started post #328 with a snarky comment about Doherty's credentials and honesty. I've since removed it, deciding that it doesn't contribute to the discussion. Now let's take a serious look at the question.

Doherty says in his book: "I have a degree in Ancient History and Classical Languages." He does not say where he got this degree, nor even what degree it is. Since that time, some people have asked him where he got his degree. It is, I hope you'll agree, a straightforward question. If Doherty would simply name the institution, anyone could then contact that institution and see whether the claim is true. Yet for some reason Doherty refuses to say where he got his degree from, at least as far as I know. Here is a citation on that, and here is an interview from just a few days ago where he again claims to have a degree but won't say where it comes from. Would you agree that Doherty's behavior in regards to this question is at least a little bit odd?
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  #332  
Old 8th April 2011, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by AlexBP View Post
Ah. I initally started post #328 with a snarky comment about Doherty's credentials and honesty. I've since removed it, deciding that it doesn't contribute to the discussion. Now let's take a serious look at the question.

Doherty says in his book: "I have a degree in Ancient History and Classical Languages." He does not say where he got this degree, nor even what degree it is. Since that time, some people have asked him where he got his degree. It is, I hope you'll agree, a straightforward question. If Doherty would simply name the institution, anyone could then contact that institution and see whether the claim is true. Yet for some reason Doherty refuses to say where he got his degree from, at least as far as I know. Here is a citation on that, and here is an interview from just a few days ago where he again claims to have a degree but won't say where it comes from. Would you agree that Doherty's behavior in regards to this question is at least a little bit odd?
Even with a degree, he may still be incorrect.
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  #333  
Old 8th April 2011, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by elman View Post
Even with a degree, he may still be incorrect.
True that. But consider this. Mr. Doherty is by common consent the 'leading proponent' of the mythicist theory. (Which is a euphamistic way of saying that he's the only person still willing to waste his life arguing for such nonsense.) If it turns out that he's been parading around for the past fifteen years claiming to have a degree which he doesn't actually have, that would deal a rather serious blow to his credibility, would it not? It might even cause doubtingmerle to wonder whether blindly believing everything that Doherty says is a good idea.

If you go to the link in post #331, you'll see that I've posted a request for Mr. Doherty to name his university, as well as a request that he justify his interpretation of Romans 1:3. Thus far Doherty has refused to answer at all, while the owner of the blog has attacked me personally and suggested that it's unacceptable to ask such questions. Not exactly what you'd expect from a person who was truly interested in engaging his critics, is it?
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  #334  
Old 8th April 2011, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by AlexBP View Post
True that. But consider this. Mr. Doherty is by common consent the 'leading proponent' of the mythicist theory. (Which is a euphamistic way of saying that he's the only person still willing to waste his life arguing for such nonsense.) If it turns out that he's been parading around for the past fifteen years claiming to have a degree which he doesn't actually have, that would deal a rather serious blow to his credibility, would it not? It might even cause doubtingmerle to wonder whether blindly believing everything that Doherty says is a good idea.

If you go to the link in post #331, you'll see that I've posted a request for Mr. Doherty to name his university, as well as a request that he justify his interpretation of Romans 1:3. Thus far Doherty has refused to answer at all, while the owner of the blog has attacked me personally and suggested that it's unacceptable to ask such questions. Not exactly what you'd expect from a person who was truly interested in engaging his critics, is it?
Blindly believing everything anyone says including a pope is not a good idea.
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  #335  
Old 8th April 2011, 03:37 PM
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From post #204:
Originally Posted by doubtingmerle
When the temple was destroyed in 70 AD and the Jews were scattered from Jerusalem, the people were devastated, and apocalypatic ferver for a coming Messiah intensified. Mark combined Jewish Messiah ferver, Q teaching, Jewish "midrash" use of scripture, Greek epic tale structure, and the dying Jesus legend to tell his own story of a hero who had lived on earth.
This brings us right back to a question that you've never answered. Do you have any evidence that any such genre as "combinations of Jewish Messiah ferver, Q teaching, Jewish 'midrash' use of scripture, Greek epic tale structure, and the dying Jesus legend" actually existed in the ancient Roman Empire? I've admitted already that I'm no professional scholar in ancient literature but I'm completely at a loss to name any example of anything remotely similar to what you're describing. It is my impression that the writings we have from that time and place fit into genres. While there may be some blurring of the boundaries of genres, the idea that Mark would simply mash all that stuff together doesn't seem to fit into any of the patterns of literature that we have, even by a great stretch of the imagination.
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  #336  
Old 8th April 2011, 04:02 PM
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Big news! Earl Dohert has actually responded to my questions.

Well, "responded" may be too strong a word.

In response to the question about why he interprets "kata sarx" as not meaning what his own sources say that it means, he says the question is "garbled" and therefore he doesn't have to answer it. As for the question about where he got his degree from, he ignored that one entirely. I can't imagine why.

I've posted the questions again. We'll see whether he's willing to answer or not.
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  #337  
Old 8th April 2011, 06:34 PM
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Good luck Alex. Just be aware that Neil Godrey sees criticisms of the mythicist position as being virtually akin to conspiracy. I noted that he called your post a "cheap focus at the person (that is, ad hominem)" and asks "do you have the guts to take on the issue or are you playing avoidance games by focusing attention “ad hominem”? Charming!

For the readers here: this is Alex's post on Neil's blog. Note the terrible adhominems!
Greetings, Mr. Doherty. I appreciate your honest scholarship and your politeness, though I do not agree with your position. I have two questions.
First of all, you refer twice in this interview to a degree you received in ancient history and classical languages. What university did you receive this degree from and in what year?
Second, in your book, regarding the verse Romans 1:3 you write “Perhaps Paul is using kata to refer to something like ‘in the sphere of the flesh’ and ‘in the sphere of the spirit.’ This is a suggestion put forward by CK Barrett.” However Barrett in his book The Epistle to the Romans specifically says that Paul is refering to Jesus being a desscendant of the David in the realm of the flesh and not of the spirit. Likewise you refer to the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament as support your interpretation of the verse refering to a realm of the spirit. But here is what the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament actually says:

“Kata sarka distinguishes this as an earthly and human relationship from a relationship of a different kind. Sare stands for the sphere of man.”

So both of your sources interpret this verse as meaning exactly what you insist it doesn’t mean, namely that Paul thought Jesus to be a flesh-and-blood descendant of David. Why the discrepancy?
Thank you for your time.
Both perfectly reasonable questions. How this can be considered an "adhom" attack I have no idea, though perhaps Neil knows something we don't. To his credit, Neil is one of the few mythicists attempting to try to understand Doherty's case. But like many mythicists, Neil will see questioning of Doherty as agenda-driven, and will see albino monks behind every such question.

I just don't think it is worth trying to get any meaningful dialogue going on until they stop seeing conspiracies behind every approach. Questions become "attacks", repeated approaches become "vendettas". So be prepared to see your questions deflected with constant innuendos of your motives. The poster Spin on FRDB is an old-hand on debate boards, and simply ignored Doherty's baiting and focused on the questions. I recommend the same strategy. Because you are going to be baited by Neil and Doherty, no two ways about it.
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  #338  
Old 9th April 2011, 03:03 AM
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When GakusieDon speaks of me (Neil Godfrey) as thinking that criticisms of the Christ-mythicism position as "virtually akin to lying" he is the one who is in fact lying. I challenge GDon to cite any evidence other than his own and James McGrath's childish snickerings to support his accusation.

I have made it perfectly clear that addressing the man rather than the argument is surely by any standard "ad hominem" and this is exactly the way the one who calls him/herself "AlexBP" insists on carrying on his/her argument.

"AlexBP" (whoever you are) -- I have offered a detailed response to your comments on my blog, and you have even said I have given you much to respond to. Kindly indicate on that blog where in specific detail you have actually responded to my comments.
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  #339  
Old 9th April 2011, 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by AlexBP View Post
while the owner of the blog has attacked me personally and suggested that it's unacceptable to ask such questions.
Are you prepared to be honest enough to actually quote what I in fact DID say, and link to my post? Or do you make a habit of dotting the internet with your lying misrepresentations such as these.

Neil Godfrey -- the owner of the blog you have lyingly slandered here.
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  #340  
Old 9th April 2011, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by AlexBP View Post
From post #204:

This brings us right back to a question that you've never answered. Do you have any evidence that any such genre as "combinations of Jewish Messiah ferver, Q teaching, Jewish 'midrash' use of scripture, Greek epic tale structure, and the dying Jesus legend" actually existed in the ancient Roman Empire? I've admitted already that I'm no professional scholar in ancient literature but I'm completely at a loss to name any example of anything remotely similar to what you're describing. It is my impression that the writings we have from that time and place fit into genres. While there may be some blurring of the boundaries of genres, the idea that Mark would simply mash all that stuff together doesn't seem to fit into any of the patterns of literature that we have, even by a great stretch of the imagination.
mmm ... i would expect someone who admits to not being a professional scholar would evidence some humility . . . . You obviously have not read very much about literary genres -- nor much recent literature on gospel genres in particular. But if you keep up to date with the Vridar blog you will read quite a few posts on what the scholarly literature says about literary genres, with specific reference to gospel genres in particular. Not that my posts are definiitive, but you will gain a few citations of recent literature and learn how new genres do emerge, how ancient writiings of the time in question did draw on any and every known "genre" to create something new . . . . but I know this is not the sort of inquiry anyone with a closed mind about Gospel origins would find comfortable.

Neil Godfrey
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