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  #1  
Old 27th January 2011, 04:21 PM
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Something I didn't know about black holes that blew my mind!

I thought we could all use a break from the debating and just talking about something that almost everybody can get interested in: the weirdness of black holes!

A physicist posted the following thing on Reddit the other day. He was answering a question about if it would be possible to escape a black hole if you could travel faster than the speed of light.

"Imagine, just for a moment, that you are aboard a spaceship equipped with a magical engine capable of accelerating you to any arbitrarily high velocity. This is absolutely and utterly impossible, but it turns out it'll be okay, for reasons you'll see in a second.

Because you know your engine can push you faster than the speed of light, you have no fear of black holes. In the interest of scientific curiosity, you allow yourself to fall through the event horizon of one. And not just any black hole, but rather a carefully chosen one, one sufficiently massive that its event horizon lies quite far from its center. This is so you'll have plenty of time between crossing the event horizon and approaching the region of insane gravitational gradient near the center to make your observations and escape again.

As you fall toward the black hole, you notice some things which strike you as highly unusual, but because you know your general relativity they do not shock or frighten you. First, the stars behind you — that is, in the direction that points away from the black hole — grow much brighter. The light from those stars, falling in toward the black hole, is being blue-shifted by the gravitation; light that was formerly too dim to see, in the deep infrared, is boosted to the point of visibility.

Simultaneously, the black patch of sky that is the event horizon seems to grow strangely. You know from basic geometry that, at this distance, the black hole should subtend about a half a degree of your view — it should, in other words, be about the same size as the full moon as seen from the surface of the Earth. Except it isn't. In fact, it fills half your view. Half of the sky, from notional horizon to notional horizon, is pure, empty blackness. And all the other stars, nearly the whole sky full of stars, are crowded into the hemisphere that lies behind you.

As you continue to fall, the event horizon opens up beneath you, so you feel as if you're descending into a featureless black bowl. Meanwhile, the stars become more and more crowded into a circular region of sky centered on the point immediately aft. The event horizon does not obscure the stars; you can watch a star just at the edge of the event horizon for as long as you like and you'll never see it slip behind the black hole. Rather, the field of view through which you see the rest of the universe gets smaller and smaller, as if you're experiencing tunnel-vision.

Finally, just before you're about to cross the event horizon, you see the entire rest of the observable universe contract to a single, brilliant point immediately behind you. If you train your telescope on that point, you'll see not only the light from all the stars and galaxies, but also a curious dim red glow. This is the cosmic microwave background, boosted to visibility by the intense gravitation of the black hole.

And then the point goes out. All at once, as if God turned off the switch.
You have crossed the event horizon of the black hole.
Focusing on the task at hand, knowing that you have limited time before you must fire up your magical spaceship engine and escape the black hole, you turn to your observations. Except you don't see anything. No light is falling on any of your telescopes. The view out your windows is blacker than mere black; you are looking at non-existence. There is nothing to see, nothing to observe.

You know that somewhere ahead of you lies the singularity … or at least, whatever the universe deems fit to exist at the point where our mathematics fails. But you have no way of observing it. Your mission is a failure.
Disappointed, you decide to end your adventure. You attempt to turn your ship around, such that your magical engine is pointing toward the singularity and so you can thrust yourself away at whatever arbitrarily high velocity is necessary to escape the black hole's hellish gravitation. But you are thwarted.

Your spaceship has sensitive instruments that are designed to detect the gradient of gravitation, so you can orient yourself. These instruments should point straight toward the singularity, allowing you to point your ship in the right direction to escape. Except the instruments are going haywire. They seem to indicate that the singularity lies all around you. In every direction, the gradient of gravitation increases. If you are to believe your instruments, you are at the point of lowest gravitation inside the event horizon, and every direction points "downhill" toward the center of the black hole. So any direction you thrust your spaceship will push you closer to the singularity and your death.

This is clearly nonsense. You cannot believe what your instruments are telling you. It must be a malfunction.
But it isn't. It's the absolute, literal truth. Inside the event horizon of a black hole, there is no way out. There are no directions of space that point away from the singularity. Due to the Lovecraftian curvature of spacetime within the event horizon, all the trajectories that would carry you away from the black hole now point into the past.

In fact, this is the definition of the event horizon. It's the boundary separating points in space where there are trajectories that point away from the black hole from points in space where there are none.
Your magical infinitely-accelerating engine is of no use to you … because you cannot find a direction in which to point it. The singularity is all around you, in every direction you look.

And it is getting closer."
*Guitar Solo!*
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  #2  
Old 27th January 2011, 04:25 PM
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Evolution is not science: legalize creationism.

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Black holes do not exist.

"...in the present state of our experimental knowledge, nothing entitles us to suppose that singular points (in four dimensions) may exist in the Universe." -- Marcel Brillouin, mathematician, January 1923

"... the 'Schwarzschild singularities' do not exist in physical reality." -- Albert Einstein, mathematician, 1939

"Even mainstream scientists admit that at singularities the ‘laws of physics’ break down. It would be more accurate to say that their own theories break down." -- David Pratt, natural philosopher, 2005

"Physics is first and foremost the study of objects. Without objects, we can have no Physics. The black hole does not belong in Physics because it is not a physical object. It is, rather, an irrational concept and as such does not even belong in Philosophy. The astronomers should not be pointing their telescopes to the skies in search of black holes. They should be reading the definition of the word object." -- Bil Gaede, physicist, April 2009
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Old 27th January 2011, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Agonaces of Susa View Post
Black holes do not exist.

"...in the present state of our experimental knowledge, nothing entitles us to suppose that singular points (in four dimensions) may exist in the Universe." -- Marcel Brillouin, mathematician, January 1923
Notice the date of this quote. How many things have been discovered since then?


"... the 'Schwarzschild singularities' do not exist in physical reality." -- Albert Einstein, mathematician, 1939
Albert Einstein refused to accept quantum mechanics all together. He was wrong. Period.

"Even mainstream scientists admit that at singularities the ‘laws of physics’ break down. It would be more accurate to say that their own theories break down." -- David Pratt, natural philosopher, 2005
So what? WHo is this guy? What in the world is a "natural philosopher" and how does that qualify him to comment on physics? We don't yet understand exactly what happens at the point of singularity. If you read the quote above (which I doubt you did), he covered that already.

"Physics is first and foremost the study of objects. Without objects, we can have no Physics. The black hole does not belong in Physics because it is not a physical object. It is, rather, an irrational concept and as such does not even belong in Philosophy. The astronomers should not be pointing their telescopes to the skies in search of black holes. They should be reading the definition of the word object." -- Bil Gaede, physicist, April 2009
Particles are object. And that's the cool thing about science. It doesn't matter WHO says what, only what is said. Einstein's theories on general relativity were a great contribution to science, but he was wrong about quantum mechanics. And that's ok. Appeals to authority don't carry any weight, only what is said. The scientific consensus is that black holes exist. Some scientists might disagree, but it's up to them to give a better explanation for the things we see happening in the universe. Oh that's right, you probably haven't heard, there is actually physical evidence that seems to point to the existence of black holes. They're not just equations on blackboards anymore.



ALL OF THAT SAID, I didn't really want this to be a debate thread.
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Old 27th January 2011, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by DontTreadOnMike View Post
Notice the date of this quote. How many things have been discovered since then?
Like what?

Since then, it's been rediscovered that black holes do not exist in physical reality.

Albert Einstein refused to accept quantum mechanics all together. He was wrong. Period.
I agree that Albert Einstein was wrong about gravitation and General Relativity. However, Albert Einstein was very right about black holes. They are a figment of your imagination. Black holes exist only in the minds of their creators such as yourself.

So what? WHo is this guy?
Who are you?

Black holes do not exist.

What in the world is a "natural philosopher"
I suggest you look it up in the dictionary.

and how does that qualify him to comment on physics?
LOL.

Natural philosophers study nature -- thus no one is more qualified to speak on physics.

FYI: Physics means nature in Greek.

We don't yet understand exactly what happens at the point of singularity.
Singularities do not exist in physical reality.
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Old 27th January 2011, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Agonaces of Susa View Post
Black holes do not exist.
So what do we see out in the void when massive gravity lenses distort the stars?

Originally Posted by Agonaces of Susa View Post
"...in the present state of our experimental knowledge, nothing entitles us to suppose that singular points (in four dimensions) may exist in the Universe." -- Marcel Brillouin, mathematician, January 1923
Cutting edge science from 1923... why didn't I think of that?

Originally Posted by Agonaces of Susa View Post
"... the 'Schwarzschild singularities' do not exist in physical reality." -- Albert Einstein, mathematician, 1939
Originally Posted by Agonaces of Susa View Post
"Even mainstream scientists admit that at singularities the ‘laws of physics’ break down. It would be more accurate to say that their own theories break down." -- David Pratt, natural philosopher, 2005
Ah yes... care to offer a better explanation? Perhaps Vishnu and Zeus were running an experiment on their star ship on a mission from Space Emperor Jesus?

Originally Posted by Agonaces of Susa View Post
"Physics is first and foremost the study of objects. Without objects, we can have no Physics. The black hole does not belong in Physics because it is not a physical object. It is, rather, an irrational concept and as such does not even belong in Philosophy. The astronomers should not be pointing their telescopes to the skies in search of black holes. They should be reading the definition of the word object." -- Bil Gaede, physicist, April 2009
Begs the question.
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Old 27th January 2011, 05:06 PM
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Evolution is not science: legalize creationism.

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Originally Posted by Shemjaza View Post
So what do we see out in the void
I can tell you what we don't see and that's void.

There is no void.

"It is evident, then, that it is easy to refute the arguments by which they prove the existence of the void." -- Aristotle, Physics, Book IV

"...there is no void...." -- Aristotle, Physics, Book IV

when massive gravity lenses distort the stars?
It doesn't.

Gravitation is a myth and gravitational lensing is an even bigger myth.

Please show me the gravitational lensing in this photograph.



Dowdye, E.H. Jr., Profound Fundamentals of Mathematical Physics Seriously Misapplied to Gravitational Lensing, Dec 2008

Since it is alleged photons have no mass by f=ma it is impossible for gravitation to act on light.

Cutting edge science from 1923... why didn't I think of that?
Gravitation is from the 17th century and General Relativity from around 1923 (1915 to be precise). I agree they are outdated.

Ah yes... care to offer a better explanation? Perhaps Vishnu and Zeus were running an experiment on their star ship on a mission from Space Emperor Jesus?

Begs the question.
Jupiter is a star ship i.e. planet.
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Old 27th January 2011, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by DontTreadOnMike View Post
I thought we could all use a break from the debating and just talking about something that almost everybody can get interested in: the weirdness of black holes!
Black holes are weird because they are make belief science fiction. Better know as "Fairie Dust" [Fabricated Ad hoc Inventions Repeatedly Invoked in Efforts to Defend Untenable Scientific Theories].

More Fairie Dust - Dark Energy and Dark Matter.
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Old 27th January 2011, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Doveaman View Post
Black holes are weird because they are make belief science fiction. Better know as "Fairie Dust" [Fabricated Ad hoc Inventions Repeatedly Invoked in Efforts to Defend Untenable Scientific Theories].

More Fairie Dust - Dark Energy and Dark Matter.
Can you explain what a blackhole is and why it can't exist without copypasta?
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Old 27th January 2011, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by DontTreadOnMike View Post
Can you explain what a blackhole is and why it can't exist without copypasta?
Of course not.
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A giant wall of text is so unpleasent that no one is going to sit there and read it. Good formatting is what separates us from the animals, after all.




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Old 27th January 2011, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by KIYX View Post
Of course not.
Well then, back to the topic at hand...


ISN'T THAT AWESOME?! (did you read the OP?)
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