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  #61  
Old 23rd January 2011, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by JoabAnias View Post
I always was happy.

Do you need help on how to cite a source or something?

Its rather easy if your right there and have already looked it up.

I would like you to understand the SSPX interpretation of Catholic law, as you percieve it, is way off the mark though.

Are you getting this yet?

The Code of Canon Law states:
"1137. Children conceived or born of a valid or putative marriage are legitimate."
you canon citation is irrellent- as is your remark about the sspx interpretation

go back and re-read the OP where i commented and stated

now that really caught my attention and i tried to research to discover if this is a qualification for the rcc also but cannot find an answer- certainly in recent history it had to of been if it is part of the traditional sector
and

i just want an answer to the question if a person was conceived outside of marriage if the priesthood is out
the fact is that the Church does view children of an annulment illegitimate under certain circumstances and there is nada you can do about it
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  #62  
Old 23rd January 2011, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by BAFRIEND View Post
you canon citation is irrellent- as is your remark about the sspx interpretation

go back and re-read the OP where i commented and stated



and



the fact is that the Church does view children of an annulment illegitimate under certain circumstances and there is nada you can do about it
Again, "Illegitimate" applies as a term only so far as one may be entitled to an inheritance or not. If a child were born of a mother and father then they are legitimately a child of those parents. Illegitimate can be used as an ugly and pejorative word and that is never the sense the Church would use it.

I fail to see where anything has been proven contrary to the canon law of the Church which states:

"1137. Children conceived or born of a valid or putative marriage are legitimate."

You even quoted the CE which said essentially the same thing in the 1917 edition which states:

"children conceived before a sentence of invalidity is rendered have the standing of legitimate children."

This means that even if a marriage is found to be invalid after the marriage, the children are still and are always valid.

And as was also said numerous times that deserves repeating one more time, which doesn't seem to be acknowledged for some reason:

This term illegitimate is a legal term only, and has absolutely no significance to a child's religious or moral standing in the Church in either practice or reality.

A child either has a legal right to an inheritance or not. Paternal testing supports the laws of both man and the Church.

No one has a right to the priesthood. The priesthood is a calling and God will call who he wishes regardless of the state of their parents marriage. The child of a divorce is not barred from the priesthood any more than the victim of a divorce is prohibited from communion.

Evidently, if you understood the SSPX correctly, only the SSPX would deny someone their calling to the priesthood irrationally based on the state of their parents marriage. I'd shudder to think what they would require of someone who is being beaten by their spouse or who is abandoned by them.

The Church never has taught that any child is less than precious to God and the Church no matter how he/she was conceived.

Forget the SSPX web site bro and sleep on it. Its wrong.
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  #63  
Old 24th January 2011, 12:33 AM
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Again, "Illegitimate" applies as a term only so far as one may be entitled to an inheritance or not. If a child were born of a mother and father then they are legitimately a child of those parents. Illegitimate can be used as an ugly and pejorative word and that is never the sense the Church would use it.
that does not seem to be the view here as the Church used it:

Various canons were also formed concerning different details of illegitimacy, until finally a general prohibition against all spurious children being admitted to orders was enacted, on the ground that the stain of birth would be a stain on the sacred ministry.
here is the difinition from merriam webster:

not recognized as lawful offspring; specifically : born of parents not married to each other
link Illegitimate - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
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  #64  
Old 24th January 2011, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by BAFRIEND View Post
That does not seem to be the view here as the Church used it:
OK but it would help to show where that quote comes from and in its context. Picking and choosing anonymously quoted text to support a particular line of reasoning is inconclusive at best.

Are we talking about the ancient past or the current law here?

The current law says something quite different. Again:

"1137. Children conceived or born of a valid or putative marriage are legitimate."

As you seem to get this notion from the SSPX and seem to be arguing it on their behalf then I am going to go ahead and assume that quote is changed by the current law as quoted above.

here is the definition from merriam webster:
Here is another more relevant definition from the Catholic Dictionary:

ILLEGITIMACY

According to Church law, the birth of children born less than six months after the date of a marriage, or more than ten months after the dissolution of conjugal life. Unless otherwise specified, children legitimized by a subsequent marriage are, as far as canonical effects are concerned, held equal to legitimate children. Unless there is proof to the contrary, the husband of a woman is considered the father of her child. (referring to paternity/inheritance).

I am not disputing either definition in regard to paternal inheritance, only in regard to a child's religious or moral standing in the Church in either practice or reality which seems to be what you are claiming the SSPX are doing which I consider archaic.

That, and the fact that such a term may be construed as harmful to an innocent child. We would never tell a child they were illegitimate because the Church has never taught that any child is less than precious to God and the Church no matter how he/she was conceived. Nor do I think it would be something any unwed parents would not be aware of.

If the Church at one time did differentiate regarding admission to the priesthood it would seem according to current canon law that she does no longer.

Perhaps this would be a good question for a diocesan vocations director, a canon lawyer or spiritual director but either way, the current state of things seems evident enough to say that the SSPX are holding to a draconian interpretation in disregard of currently binding canon law.
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Last edited by JoabAnias; 24th January 2011 at 01:28 AM. Reason: formatting.
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  #65  
Old 24th January 2011, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by BAFRIEND View Post


here is the difinition from merriam webster:
Don't think you can use the merriam webster dictionary definition because that is secular and there is great confusion between the secular "anullment" and the Church "Decree of Nullity" with the Church "Decree of Nullity" being popularly called an "anullment". It makes people think that their children are illigetimate if a Decree of Nullity is granted, and that is not so.

Besides that the term "illigetimate" is not even used on the birth certificates any longer so there wouldn't even be a way to know one way or the other even if it were true and it's not.

Don't be taken in by false statements by schismetic groups.
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  #66  
Old 24th January 2011, 10:17 AM
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Perhaps this would be a good question for a diocesan vocations director, a canon lawyer or spiritual director...
I agree... if one really wants an answer.
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  #67  
Old 24th January 2011, 10:40 AM
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BTW, there are parts of Canon Law, that need updating.

I just learened the other day, that Canon Law prohibits Married Permanent Deacons from having sex with their wives.


Church Law says Permanent Deacons (and all clerics) are obliged to abstain from sex, notes Canonist Edward Peters {updated} | CatholicVote.org

It was being debated at CAF in the vocations forum.

Jim
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  #68  
Old 24th January 2011, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
Don't think you can use the merriam webster dictionary definition because that is secular and there is great confusion between the secular "anullment" and the Church "Decree of Nullity" with the Church "Decree of Nullity" being popularly called an "anullment". It makes people think that their children are illigetimate if a Decree of Nullity is granted, and that is not so.

Besides that the term "illigetimate" is not even used on the birth certificates any longer so there wouldn't even be a way to know one way or the other even if it were true and it's not.

Don't be taken in by false statements by schismetic groups.
none of this makes any difference- i am pointing out by using the definition that the term 'illegitimate' regardless if the term is on birth certificates or not it does not change the fact that the term refers to children born outside of marriage (sacramental or otherwise)

and it is not just a term used for inheretence purposes either- all you posting in this thread seem to know what the term is and who it is applied to and under what circumstances

my simple question was about ordination in the RCC and illegitimate male children and has nothing to do with the relevence of the term or the sspx
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  #69  
Old 24th January 2011, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by BAFRIEND View Post
none of this makes any difference
No, IMO it does--from a practical aspect. How on earth can anyone forbid something that isn't known? The answer seems obvious. They can't. So your idea that the priesthood is forbidden to illegitimate children must be false (that is even if you refuse to accept the most excellent arguments and proofs noting that canon law does not exclude children born out-of-wedlock from the priesthood.) End of story (as far as I'm concerned.)
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Old 24th January 2011, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by BAFRIEND View Post
here is a quick question i am finding it hard to find an answer too

i was on the website for an sspx seminary and it stated that candidates could only be the product of a valid marriage, in otherwords they could not be illegitimate

now that really caught my attention and i tried to research to discover if this is a qualification for the rcc also but cannot find an answer- certainly in recent history it had to of been if it is part of the traditional sector

this of course would mean that if parents got an annulment- then the children who were illegitimatized would be unable to become catholic priests

last year we debated and discovered that the catholic church does indeed view the children of annulments to be illegitimate if both parents knowingly entered into the sacrament knowing it was deceptive

i just want an answer to the question if a person was conceived outside of marriage if the priesthood is out

Once I heared my bishop, his eminence Cardinal Juan Sandoval Ińiguez, who said to the seminarians of the Seminary of Guadalajara, the largest in the world now a days, that the origin of the ones who are called by the Lord is not an important thing, that the priest should show his joy as a servent of the Lord as a new human in the Lord. That in the past of the Lord´s human family, in his ascendants, there were also many sinners, to show that God can get good things from bad things.

No one should be ashamed by his parent's sins, because we are new in the Lord and his mercy is larger than his justice. That is encouraging.
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