What do you think of Messianic Judaism?

Source Scripture · #21 8th January 2011, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by Yitzchak

You say return to as though you at one point did those things which obviously you never did.

Well the thing to remember is that Paul compared his life under bondage in Judaism, as the elemental principles 4:3, to the same principles the pagans were under, in verse 4:9. So really, by principle, JimB would be returning.

Yitzchak · #22 9th January 2011, 02:27 AM

At times like this , I thank God for true discernment.

I have noticed that those people and ministries which support Israel and the Jewish people prosper. The opposite is true also.

SpiritPsalmist · #23 9th January 2011, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by Yitzchak

At times like this , I thank God for true discernment.

Ya think.

I agree. I once was blind but now I see.

Gerhard Groenewald · #24 9th January 2011, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Source Scripture

With all due respect, most of the time it seems to be Gentiles, falling prey to Judaizers. Paul did not want Judaism near his churches, because it was as a shadow, and the law arouses sin.

He charged Timothy not to let them teach law, to his churches, and Paul was dogged by the Judaizers everywhere, recorded in almost all his letters.

Paul had a problem (and so did Jesus) with literal and legalistic commands and teachings of men (Col 2), which is what Rabbinical Judaism is about. He didn't had a problem with Messianic Judaism, in fact he was one himself. There is a big difference between "Judaism" and Torah. In fact, they consider the view of the rabbis more important than Torah - just as Christians consider the view of their churches more important than the Bible.

Torah can't save us, it was never meant to save us (Rom 8:4). Torah teaches us about Jesus and show us to Him for salvation (Gal 3:24).

Torah is not a shadow of what is to come, the eating, drinking, festivals, new moons or Sabbaths are - Col 2:16+17). They point us toward the Messianic Kingdom, which is the ultimate Sabbath when Yeshua will tabernacle with us.

The law arouses sin???!!! Please go and study what the Scripture says about the Law (Torah), your statement is blasphemous. Torah was given to keep us from sin and to let us know what sin is (Psa 119).

He charged Timothy to teach them Torah and not commandments of men - 2 Tim 3:15-17.

Can you please give Scriptural references for your statements?

I would recommend that you study the Scriptures for yourself and not just repeat false allegations from other Christians that is based on ignorance or antisemitism.

Source Scripture · #25 9th January 2011, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Yitzchak

At times like this , I thank God for true discernment.

I have noticed that those people and ministries which support Israel and the Jewish people prosper. The opposite is true also.

Yet, the Arabs have the oil, and Israel herself is not blessed right now.
Read Genesis 12:3, that promise was given to Abraham the Gentile, and it included Gentiles, all nations. Not all Israel is Israel. It is time for Christians to get past nationalism, and race, we are all one in Abraham. But that is for another thread. This thread is about Messianic Judaism, and how Paul did not want it for his churches. Thanks.

Romans 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Gerhard Groenewald · #26 9th January 2011, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Source Scripture

However, Paul did not want the Judaizers near his predominantly Gentile churches. Why? Paul also, told Peter, that they would not be living as Jews anymore. Scripture available upon request.

We should never generalize when we refer to any group of believers.

Paul had a problem with those specific Jews that insisted that believers also convert to Judaism in order to get saved.

Gal 5:1-4 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

We cannot get saved by works of Torah, only by grace by the blood of Jesus.

But once we believe we obey Torah, because He commanded us to and because faith confirms Torah:
Joh 14:15 “If you love Me, you shall guard My commands.
Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the Torah are righteous in the sight of Elohim, but the doers of the law shall be declared right.
Rom 3:31 Do we then nullify the Torah through the belief? Let it not be! On the contrary, we establish the Torah

Gerhard Groenewald · #27 9th January 2011, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by Source Scripture

Just on a personal note. A guy I know, keeps talking about the Jewish Roots movement, and all about laws. And the thing that I am always left with is a feeling that he is more caught up with trying to be Jewish, rather than just being glad, that he as a Gentile, is fine. In Christ, there is no more racial identity. Gal 3:28.

He seems to have lost his identity. He won't talk about Paul with me either. He keeps telling me he can't eat pork now.

If there is no racial identity in Christ, then there cannot be Jew or Gentile? You are contradicting yourself. In Messiah we are one and we are equal and there is no discrimination, that is true. But we still keep our identities.

He probably won't talk to you about Paul because he is also ignorant about Paul. I'm a Messianic and I love Paul because he taught us the right perspective we should have about Torah and the prominence of Torah. Paul very clearly taught that Torah cannot save us, only faith in Jesus can save us, but Paul also said that we should keep Torah, because faith establishes it (Rom 3:31)

Paul also said that the Torah is spiritual (Rom 7:14) and that people who are not spiritual cannot keep it (Rom 8:7+8)

By the way, we as Messianics focus on Jesus, not on the law (we should in any case - just as "Christians" should also focus on Jesus and not on "not keeping the law!). How can you know Jesus completely if you don't learn everything about Him? He said that Moses wrote about Him, that means that you will and cannot completely understand Jesus without also studying Torah.

We may seem to talk a lot about the "law" and so on, but that is only because that is what you Christians usually judge us on. We know more about Jesus than Christians because we study more scriptures about Him.

Source Scripture · #28 9th January 2011, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Gerhard Groenewald

Paul had a problem (and so did Jesus) with literal and legalistic commands and teachings of men (Col 2), which is what Rabbinical Judaism is about. He didn't had a problem with Messianic Judaism, in fact he was one himself. There is a big difference between "Judaism" and Torah. In fact, they consider the view of the rabbis more important than Torah - just as Christians consider the view of their churches more important than the Bible.

Torah can't save us, it was never meant to save us (Rom 8:4). Torah teaches us about Jesus and show us to Him for salvation (Gal 3:24).

Torah is not a shadow of what is to come, the eating, drinking, festivals, new moons or Sabbaths are - Col 2:16+17). They point us toward the Messianic Kingdom, which is the ultimate Sabbath when Yeshua will tabernacle with us.

The law arouses sin???!!! Please go and study what the Scripture says about the Law (Torah), your statement is blasphemous. Torah was given to keep us from sin and to let us know what sin is (Psa 119).

He charged Timothy to teach them Torah and not commandments of men - 2 Tim 3:15-17.

Can you please give Scriptural references for your statements?

I would recommend that you study the Scriptures for yourself and not just repeat false allegations from other Christians that is based on ignorance or antisemitism.

First, that portion of Colossians 2, was the Torah, or how could all of our sins be forgiven, from the commands of men? It says legal demands, stood against us. Legal is judicial for the law. Please read the twin epistle of Ephesians, it says abolished the law, in 2:15, for both Jew and Gentile.

13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Second, he did have a problem with Messianic Judaism, they were the ones causing trouble in Corinth, Galatia, Crete, and Ephesus. The circumcision, as he called it, were the Messianics out of the Jerusalem church, who were intimidating Peter, in Galatians 2, which almost caused a rift in the church. Paul also called said, it was not the gospel, in chapter one.

Third, the law does arouse sin.
1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Romans 7:5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.

Fourth, as far as the Col 2:16 beiing about the future, it says the substance is christ, and it also was for then, written in the prestent tense. The shadow is over, that was the context.

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Fifth, he did not want them to teach the law to his churches, fine to show the Christ in the OT, but he did not want it put on his church.

3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, 4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith. 5 The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.

Why did Paul refer to the law as bondage, 4 times in Galatians?

Thanks.

Source Scripture · #29 9th January 2011, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Gerhard Groenewald

If there is no racial identity in Christ, then there cannot be Jew or Gentile? You are contradicting yourself. In Messiah we are one and we are equal and there is no discrimination, that is true. But we still keep our identities.

Yes, no more racial identity, perhaps you misunderstood.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

Can you show me Messianic Judaism, using Abraham, from the NT?

Source Scripture · #30 9th January 2011, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Gerhard Groenewald

We should never generalize when we refer to any group of believers.

Paul had a problem with those specific Jews that insisted that believers also convert to Judaism in order to get saved.

Gal 5:1-4 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

We cannot get saved by works of Torah, only by grace by the blood of Jesus.

But once we believe we obey Torah, because He commanded us to and because faith confirms Torah:
Joh 14:15 “If you love Me, you shall guard My commands.
Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the Torah are righteous in the sight of Elohim, but the doers of the law shall be declared right.
Rom 3:31 Do we then nullify the Torah through the belief? Let it not be! On the contrary, we establish the Torah

As far as your usage of Romans 3:31. Did you ever notice the context, was used to condemn all men for 3 chapters? So, does the Torah condemn, or give life to the churches? Why was Paul so adamant, not to have the Torah for the Galatians, but instead, pointed to the Spirit?

7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end,