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  #41  
Old 17th January 2011, 07:52 AM
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rockyjohn, thank you for your honesty. You have received many good replies (and some not so good replies). The Law is harsh, and, frankly, impossible to keep. Yet keeping it is required, and, should we fail, we face death. This is what it means to fulfill the Law: it means to keep its requirements, or spend eternity in Hell. Since we have all failed in the first - living without sin - we must all face the second fulfillment, death.

Christ, on the other hand, did both on our behalf, and, therefore, fulfilled the Law. He didn't abolish it, as some would have us think, nor did He erase it's requirements. Instead, if He is dwelling within you, He has fulfilled it for you in your own life. He lived it perfectly and then died with the punishment of your sins on His shoulders. You are no longer required to keep the Law or face death, because Christ has done both. This is the central meaning of grace, the heartbeat of the Christian faith.

In terms of God's wrath being different in the Old Testament from what is displayed in the New Testament, I suggest you read Revelation. In that, God's wrath is poured out on a world that has utterly rejected Christ (e.g., Rev. 9:20-21). In fact, many of the plagues mentioned in Revelation are similar to those in Exodus.

Thanks, again, for your honesty.

Happy hunting!
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  #42  
Old 17th January 2011, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by rockyjohn View Post
hawkins- you are a bit to self rightous for my liking- self rightousness is often the covering people use to hide there own bigotry and evil from themselves. all those muslim suicide bombers are self rightous. that is the main reason why they dont see murdering innocent people as wrong. while you may not be anywhere near as bad, it is still the same mask and i dont trust it.
Whether you like me or not is irrelevant. I don't lose faith on God thus I know the explanation of historical reason. Whether you reject the explanation by your own SELF-RIGHTTOUSness is by your own choice.

I don's have and thing "SELF" that's why I don't question God that often as you do with your own self justification.

To know your "SELF" sometimes is difficult, especially when you are ignorant about history.

1)also i never said i was loosing faith in god. i am loosing faith in the bible as the 100% true word of god. after reading it i have realised i have no proof the bible is the 100% true word of god except that the bible says so. and i have come to realise the bible says alot of things i simply cant agree with . i could not stone to death one of my children for disobediance. even though the bible says i should. and yes it may be in the ot but jesus himslef said he came not to change a single law of the ot and it all still aplies fully. jesus only came to fulfill the sacrificial ofering so we could be forgiven and go to heaven through him as far as i understand.

2) all you have just said here is that the only way to combat evil is to become just as evil yourself. sorry but i disagree with you on that point strongly

3) are you telling me that god is not powerful enough to have protected the jews from harm while they followed a law without slavery and being allowed to murder cities full of defencless woman and children of there enemies. if god had wanted them to survive they would have survived no matter the odds against them. do you think mere men can thwart the will of god?
also in the ot god was not afraid to get ionvolved in things diectly. he destroyed armies so the jews would survive. he sent plagues onto egypt, he parted the red sea, he turned cities to salt and drowned the world when people went against hes will, so i dont see how you can claim god needed his chosen people to be just as evil and barbaric as the people around them so they could survive
I think I've already explained. We are not in some kind of paradise. Earth is a evil place where people are living a captive life and thus waiting to be rescued. If you see this as God's incapability, that remains your own ignorance and arrogance. God allows this to happen because here is a place outside of His kingdom. And ANYTHING horrific is allowed to happen in a place outside of God's Kingdom. That's why we are urged to return.

The worse sin are those behavior humans employ, not to survive but to enjoy. It by no means says that God like it. Like I said, if all the Caesers and people like it and deem that 100% lawful and legal. God won't forbid it. If however, people have the awareness to fight it, God won't forbid it either. Paul has already explained that the Caesers have a role on earth. It is no necessary to overthrow them even when they try to fight against God. God only said that render what's Caesers to the Caesers, and worship God via a personal relationship.

If you lose your faith due to what the Caesers and people at that time considered 100% lawful and legal. And you insist that God should erase that part of human history for you to believe, well. All I can say is, you are over-estimated your own importance. God is still the same who will try to redeem those who understand Him, even from a historical point of view.

To me, the deep inside of you is just too rebellious to accept God, even when a reasonable explanation is given, which aparantly is not what you are looking for. You are actually looking for a "persuasive reason" to justify you own rebellious nature and thus reject God with that piece of self-deceit.

Wake up!
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  #43  
Old 17th January 2011, 10:42 PM
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Render what Caesers' to the Caesers. God allows Caesers to define their rules especially when those rules are liked/loved by Caesers' people.

Slavery is a human establishment adapted by Caesers and their people and was deemed 100% legal and lawful. It by no means says that God likes it. Intead God doesn't want the Jews/(or you) to learn to be rebellious to something deemed 100% legal and lawful and supported by all people around.

God however taught to the Jews that slavery is not something good, the Jews shouldn't be satisfactory by living a captive life. Actually, that's why the Exodus.

Not only that, God also urged humans to refuse to be slaves of sin to live a captive life satifactorily. There's another spiritual Exodus out there waiting for those 'slaves' to get out of Egypt/Hades, to the promised land of Canaan/New Heaven and New Earth.
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  #44  
Old 18th January 2011, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
Whether you like me or not is irrelevant. I don't lose faith on God thus I know the explanation of historical reason. Whether you reject the explanation by your own SELF-RIGHTTOUSness is by your own choice.
Not to step in too much, but Rocky didn't really say that he dislikes you; he said your attitude reveals something crucial about your heart, and he is right that attitude reveals that.
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  #45  
Old 18th January 2011, 08:58 AM
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Losing my faith?

I can relate to your feelings of confusion and shock when reading the Bible as a book like any other book from beginning to end. There is much that never gets discussed or addressed because there is simply no true understanding. The only way we can understand any of these issues you bring up is by vision and revelation. These questions will not be answered by "folks on a forum" giving thoughts, opinions, ideas, and concepts.
The first thing you have to do is let go of all your thoughts, concepts, theories, and ideas that you have gathered about Yahweh Elohim/ the Lord God and let him provide the vision and revelation of who he is and how he actually exists.
If you are interested in hearing more I would be more than willing to share, but you have to be willing to let go of all things, including what you once called your "faith." Luke 14:26 26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. This is a very difficult verse to consider but one we must if we are to be his disciple.
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  #46  
Old 19th January 2011, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Kaitlin08 View Post
This saying is only found in Matthew, and even in Matthew's gospel, Jesus intensifies certain aspects of the Mosaic Law, and reinterprets or does away with others. Certainly in Matthew's gospel, Jesus claims to be the divine Wisdom itself (Matt 11:19); and this would constitute blasphemy, which was prohibited by the Mosaic Law. I don't think this saying in Matthew 5:17-18 should be taken very seriously at all.
## IMO it is a hint that Jesus is the fulfilment of the Law (cf. Matthew 3). I think this would fit the theology of that gospel, FWIW. And that gospel is for Jews, by the looks of it.

Just a guess.
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  #47  
Old 19th January 2011, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Catherineanne View Post
Losing your faith in the Bible is not the same thing as losing your faith in God. Not unless the Bible is your God. The Trinity does not comprise God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Scriptures.

You now have to work out which is actually God, and which is book.
This is a perfect example of the Bible leading to loss of, or at least endangering, faith. Salvation from the bondage of the Bible is not something one hears much about
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  #48  
Old 19th January 2011, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by wayseer View Post
Yek makes a good point and one that is inevitably overlooked.
## Well, not inevitably - only if one has no understanding of the historical environment of the Bible, & thinks that the Letter to the Ephesians is really the Letter to the Wasillans, & does not appreciate that there were more cultures in the ANE than that of Israel alone. Why can't people be educated in these things ? Isn't that part of a Church's function ?
Whether we realize it or not we impose our own worldview on everything we read. It is very hard to get out of this habit and it is even more alarming when people are not aware of the habit.

Reading the biblical texts wearing 21st century glasses give a very distorted view of the meaning lying within the text itself.
## Why is that not blindingly obvious ? How can it not be ? Do people have no sense of history ?
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  #49  
Old 19th January 2011, 11:45 PM
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1 Corinthians 2 14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

This includes most religious[/font]
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  #50  
Old 21st January 2011, 06:46 AM
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No slaves in Egypt?

God Doesn't Exist,

There were no slaves in Egypt? Really? Not trying to attack you, but most secular historians agree that there HAD to be slaves in Egypt in order to create many of the structures found in that nation. Indeed, we have many documents from the ancient world that speak of Egypt's political and miltary power, and it was common practice in those days to enslave the nations you conquered.

Again, this is not from a Biblical perspective, but a secular perspective.
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