Home | Be a Christian | Devotionals | Join Us! | Forums | Rules | F.A.Q.


Go Back   Christian Forums > Theology (orthodox Christians only) > Theology (orthodox Christians only) > Christian Apologetics
Register BlogsPrayersJobsArcade Calendar Mark Forums Read

Christian Apologetics A forum to discuss the systematic defense of the Christian belief system with other Christians.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 4th January 2011, 03:40 PM
Touma's Avatar
In on the cover up

27 Gender: Male Faith: Christian-Seeker Party: US-Others Country: United States Member For 5 Years Steward
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 19th February 2007
Location: Arlington, Va
Posts: 7,136
Blessings: 9,868,829
My Mood In Love
Reps: 1,713,291,315,093,753,856 (power: 1,713,291,315,093,768)
Touma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond repute
Touma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond reputeTouma has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by rockyjohn View Post
-snip-
To adress a few related things. Jesus said this:
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

The NLT has it put as this, which I think sums it up perfectly:
"Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose"

Jesus fulfilled the purpose of the law. What is the purpose of the law? Paul said in Galatians that no man was justified by obeying the law, because the law's purpose was to expose people to their sin, or rather how they filled to live up to God's standards. Jesus came and fulfilled that law, meaning he lived a perfect life completely fulfilling the entire law. And those who believe in Him are justified by His deeds, and will not be judged by the law. Everyone not under grace will be judged by the Law, which no one can stand against.

So yeah, Jesus didn't abolish the law. I agree. He fulfilled it, and us who are believers will be justified by Jesus. As an added note to this specific topic, the Holy Spirit dwells in the believer and allows us to live righteously for God, so we should naturally begin to follow the two commandments Christ gave, which the entire law was built upon; love God above all, and then love everyone else.

Now, as far as the rest of the Old Testament, and the actions of Israel: realize that they were often in rebellion against God's will for them. They were supposed to be a blessing to the world, showing all the pagans the truth of YHWH. Instead, they allowed their blessing to become a boast. They were prideful, and entered into sin against God, by following after things of the world. They did some things which were not in God's plan. Remember that when reading the OT.
__________________
Pax Americana
Reply With Quote
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!

  #32  
Old 4th January 2011, 04:57 PM
Member

Gender: Male Faith: Calvinist Party: UK-Liberal-Democrats Country: United Kingdom Member For 3 Years
 
Join Date: 20th September 2010
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,926
Blessings: 1,052,616
Reps: 126,525,058,303,672,848 (power: 126,525,058,303,678)
lesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond repute
lesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond reputelesliedellow has a reputation beyond repute
Partly I agree with Yekcidmij. God isn't a twenty first century liberal just just like you and me. He is the sovereign Lord of the universe, and we can't manufacture a god to suit our own personal tastes - we are stuck with the God who is.

Also, to say that God destroyed Pharoah's free will is not quite what is being said. Pharoah had a free will, and he used it, but as his creator it was God who endowed Pharoah the personality, temperament, and other traits, which allowed him to know exactly how he would behave in any given situation - even though his choices were completely his.

As for slavery, it is necessary to remember that the Bible is a historical document, and it reflects the cultural background against which it was written. When reading the Bible it is necessary to try and separate out the stuff which merely reflects the culture of the time, and the moral standards the biblical writers simply took for granted, from that which is eternally valid.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 4th January 2011, 07:19 PM
Angelsword777's Avatar
Regular Member

Gender: Male Faith: Christian Party: US-Republican Country: United States Member For 3 Years
 
Join Date: 1st September 2010
Location: New York
Posts: 216
Blessings: 26,294
My Mood Amused
Reps: 9,312,646,699,147,696 (power: 9,312,646,699,151)
Angelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond repute
Angelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond repute
Am I the only one that actually admires what God did to the Pharoah who kept disrespecting him? Did you want God the creator to get down on his knees and beg for the Pharoah to stop hurting his chosen soon to be "Israelites"? God begging to a mortal??? I don't think so. I agree with God on this one.

Plain and simple....God doesn't roll over and run away when someone gets in his face. In the biblical times I see God showing us that when someone wants to become an enemy him and his people that are meant to be his fundamental starting point, they pay the price.

If God just lightened up the Pharoah and rewarded him for disrespecting God what exactly is that going to prove? What kinda message is that for us? Do bad things and disrespect me and the ones who follow me for you shall never recieve a consequence??

God shows a few things to us here, one of them is discipline.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 11th January 2011, 09:11 PM
Newbie

Gender: Male Faith: Catholic Party: US-Republican Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 6th December 2007
Posts: 66
Blessings: 71,868
My Mood Angelic
Reps: 89,368,938,954,506 (power: 89,368,938,961)
YinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond repute
YinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond repute
Let me start out by saying that the questions mentioned in the original post are very important and interesting to say the least. I, myself, am a Catholic and thus believe in the infallible teachings of the Magesterium of the Catholic Church, which are based on the two sources of divine public revelation, Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

That being said, I do not believe that we should simply check our brains at the door when it comes to understanding our faith, especially when trying to come to terms with certain actions of God found in the Bible which, at first, seem difficult to understand.

The Catholic Church teaches us that we need both Faith and Reason. Faith always comes first, of course, but not to the exclusion of Reason.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

35 Man's faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man, and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith.(so) the proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.

Faith and understanding

156 What moves us to believe is not the fact that revealed truths appear as true and intelligible in the light of our natural reason: we believe "because of the authority of God himself who reveals them, who can neither deceive nor be deceived".28 So "that the submission of our faith might nevertheless be in accordance with reason, God willed that external proofs of his Revelation should be joined to the internal helps of the Holy Spirit."29 Thus the miracles of Christ and the saints, prophecies, the Church's growth and holiness, and her fruitfulness and stability "are the most certain signs of divine Revelation, adapted to the intelligence of all"; they are "motives of credibility" (motiva credibilitatis), which show that the assent of faith is "by no means a blind impulse of the mind".30

157 Faith is certain. It is more certain than all human knowledge because it is founded on the very word of God who cannot lie. To be sure, revealed truths can seem obscure to human reason and experience, but "the certainty that the divine light gives is greater than that which the light of natural reason gives."31 "Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt."32

158 "Faith seeks understanding":33 it is intrinsic to faith that a believer desires to know better the One in whom he has put his faith, and to understand better what He has revealed; a more penetrating knowledge will in turn call forth a greater faith, increasingly set afire by love. the grace of faith opens "the eyes of your hearts"34 to a lively understanding of the contents of Revelation: that is, of the totality of God's plan and the mysteries of faith, of their connection with each other and with Christ, the centre of the revealed mystery. "The same Holy Spirit constantly perfects faith by his gifts, so that Revelation may be more and more profoundly understood."35 In the words of St. Augustine, "I believe, in order to understand; and I understand, the better to believe."36

159 Faith and science: "Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth."37 "Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. the humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are."38

28 Dei Filius: 3 DS 3008.
29 Dei Filius: 3 DS 3009.
30 Dei Filius: 3: DS 3008-3010; Cf. Mk 16 20; Heb 2:4
31 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II 171, 5, obj. 3.
32 John Henry Cardinal Newman, Apologia pro vita sua (London Longman, 1878) 239.
33 St. Anselm, Prosl. prooem. PL 153 225A.
34 Eph 1:18
35 DV 5.
36 St. Augustine, Sermo 43, 7, 9: PL 38, 257-258.
37 Dei Filius 4: DS 3017.
38 GS 36 # 1.

The Magesterium of the Catholic Church also teaches us that Sacred Scripture is only infallible in regards to faith and morals, for the sake of our salvation (thus there can be errors in the Bible pertaining to science and history). We therefore have an obligation to research those issues and areas of uncertainty that come to the forefront when we read Sacred Scripture.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72

72 DV 11.


122 Indeed, "the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately SO oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men."93 "Even though they contain matters imperfect and provisional,94 The books of the Old Testament bear witness to the whole divine pedagogy of God's saving love: these writings "are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life, as well as a wonderful treasury of prayers; in them, too, the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way."95

93 DV 15.
94 DV 15.
95 DV 15.



That being said, let us now try and examine the questions and statements made in the original post in order to gain a greater understanding and appreciation of God and His Truth.

The four main points that were brought up in the original post were:

1) Pharoah's heart being hardened by God
2) Murdering of women and children
3) Monogamy being found in the New Testament but not the Old Testament
4) Slavery being found in the Old Testament

In order to gain a greater insight into these issues, we must take a look at the bigger picture for a moment.

We, as Christians, know that God is the Creator of the entire universe and the source of all that is good in the universe. We also know that every human being has been corrupted through original sin, and consequently, deserves to go to hell when they die.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil. Where does evil come from? "I sought whence evil comes and there was no solution", said St. Augustine,257 and his own painful quest would only be resolved by his conversion to the living God. For "the mystery of lawlessness" is clarified only in the light of the "mystery of our religion".258 The revelation of divine love in Christ manifested at the same time the extent of evil and the superabundance of grace.259 We must therefore approach the question of the origin of evil by fixing the eyes of our faith on him who alone is its conqueror.260

The consequences of Adam's sin for humanity

402 All men are implicated in Adam's sin, as St. Paul affirms: "By one man's disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners": "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290

257 St. Augustine, Conf. 7, 7, 11: PL 32, 739.
258 2 Th 2:7; I Tim 3:16.
259 Cf. Rom 5:20.
260 Cf. Lk 11:21-22; Jn 16:11; I Jn 3:8.
289 Rom 5:12, 19.
290 Rom 5:18.


Also, we as Christians know that God's grace (grace being the unmerited gift of recieving that which we do not deserve) is the only thing that can, ultimately, save us from the fires of hell.

Now, since God is the original source of all good, we know that our good works are, first and foremost, the result of God's grace in our lives giving us the ability to do that which we could not do on our own. We are simply cooperating with God, who first gave us the grace to desire this cooperation and then the grace to actually impliment that desire for goodness in our actions.

We still have our own free will, of course, and thus we are allowed to choose whether or not to cooperate with God in doing good. Our decisions are still our own, which is why we are still held responsible for them on Jugdement Day. We are the one's who choose whether or not to accept God's grace in our life (whether we are talking about the sanctifying grace which saves us from the fires of hell or actual graces which help us become more like our Lord Jesus Christ).

Once again though, even when we do choose good, we are simply cooperating with God Who's grace is the primary source for our good works, our own free will and decisions being the secondary source.

We've already seen that, due to free will, we can choose to reject God's grace. Let us not forget though that God can also withhold His grace from us as well, if He so chooses. Remember grace is an unmerited gift, an undeserved favor from the Almighty. We have no right or claim to God's grace, and in no way does God ever owe us His grace. Thus, God can withhold His grace from us while still not being considered evil in anyway. He simply chooses to allow us to deal with the ramifications of our sinful nature at times.

(Continued in next post)
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 11th January 2011, 09:16 PM
Newbie

Gender: Male Faith: Catholic Party: US-Republican Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 6th December 2007
Posts: 66
Blessings: 71,868
My Mood Angelic
Reps: 89,368,938,954,506 (power: 89,368,938,961)
YinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond repute
YinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond repute
(Continued from previous post)

God shows mercy on whom He will, and God withholds His mercy from whom He will.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

II. Grace

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51

2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. the soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. the promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed "very good" since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52

2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54

46 Cf. Jn 1:12-18; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4.
47 Cf. 1 Cor 2:7-9.
48 Cf. Jn 4:14; 7:38-39.
49 2 Cor 5:17-18.
50 St. Augustine, De gratia et libero arbitrio, 17: PL 44, 901.
51 St. Augustine, De natura et gratia, 31: PL 44, 264.
52 St. Augustine, Conf. 13, 36, 51: PL 32, 868; cf. Gen 1:31.
53 Cf. LG 12.
54 Cf. 1 Cor 12.

That being said, let us now move on to the application of the previous truths to the specific questions brought up in the original post

1) Pharoah's heart being hardened by God

God was perfectly within His rights as the divine Creator and source of all good to simply withhold His grace from Pharoah so that Pharoah's heart would be hardened. It was not God's fault for the evil which Pharoah did. God simply allowed that evil to occur due to free will and also to achieve a greater good out of the evil actions.

Thus God, by withholding His grace from Pharoah, hardened Pharoah's heart, in a way. Pharoah was still responsible for his evil actions due to his sinful nature, since he was given free will as well in being able to make his own decisions.

Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses: "I will show mercy to whom I will, I will take pity on whom I will."
Romans 9:16 So it depends not upon a person's will or exertion, but upon God, who shows mercy.
Romans 9:17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "This is why I have raised you up, to show my power through you that my name may be proclaimed throughout the earth."
Romans 9:18 Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills.
Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why (then) does he still find fault? For who can oppose his will?"
Romans 9:20 But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker,"Why have you created me so?"
Romans 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?
Romans 9:22 What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?
Romans 9:23 This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory,
Romans 9:24 namely, us whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles.

God was able to show His power and might to His people, that is the Jewish people, and the rest of the known world through the plagues of Egypt and also by bringing the most powerful nation in the world, at that time, to it's knees.

We must also remember that the Egyptians worshiped false gods and believed that the source of all of their wealth, power, and influence was due to these false gods' power and might. Pharoah himself believed that he was a living god here on earth. Thus the Egyptians were guilty of breaking the Commandments of God, specifically idolatry.

Pharoah also rejected, time and time again, the truth about God and His will which was told to him by Moses and Aaron. Pharoah refused to release the Jewish people for three days so that they could go and worship God. Thus, Pharoah stood in defiant opposition to God's will.

Exodus 3:18 "Thus they will heed your message. Then you and the elders of Israel shall go to the king of Egypt and say to him: The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has sent us word. Permit us, then, to go a three days' journey in the desert, that we may offer sacrifice to the LORD, our God.
Exodus 3:19 "Yet I know that the king of Egypt will not allow you to go unless he is forced.
Exodus 3:20 I will stretch out my hand, therefore, and smite Egypt by doing all kinds of wondrous deeds there. After that he will send you away.
Exodus 3:21 I will even make the Egyptians so well-disposed toward this people that, when you leave, you will not go empty-handed.
Exodus 3:22 Every woman shall ask her neighbor and her house guest for silver and gold articles and for clothing to put on your sons and daughters. Thus you will despoil the Egyptians."

Exodus 4:22 So you shall say to Pharaoh: Thus says the LORD: Israel is my son, my first-born.
Exodus 4:23 Hence I tell you: Let my son go, that he may serve me. If you refuse to let him go, I warn you, I will kill your son, your first-born."

Exodus 5:1 After that, Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: Let my people go, that they may celebrate a feast to me in the desert."
Exodus 5:2 Pharaoh answered, "Who is the LORD, that I should heed his plea to let Israel go? I do not know the LORD; even if I did, I would not let Israel go."

(Continued in next post)

Last edited by YinandYang; 11th January 2011 at 09:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 11th January 2011, 09:25 PM
Newbie

Gender: Male Faith: Catholic Party: US-Republican Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 6th December 2007
Posts: 66
Blessings: 71,868
My Mood Angelic
Reps: 89,368,938,954,506 (power: 89,368,938,961)
YinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond repute
YinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond repute
(Continued from previous post)

God tried to convince Pharoah to let His people go, without the plagues and death of the first born sons, but Pharoah refused to listen. Thus God allowed Egypt to live with the consequenses of Pharoah's actions by punishing Egypt for their blasphemy and idolatry against the One, True, God.

Exodus 7:8 The LORD told Moses and Aaron,
Exodus 7:9 "If Pharaoh demands that you work a sign or wonder, you shall say to Aaron: Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh, and it will be changed into a snake."
Exodus 7:10 Then Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did as the LORD had commanded. Aaron threw his staff down before Pharaoh and his servants, and it was changed into a snake.
Exodus 7:11 Pharaoh, in turn, summoned wise men and sorcerers, and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did likewise by their magic arts.
Exodus 7:12 Each one threw down his staff, and it was changed into a snake. But Aaron's staff swallowed their staffs.
Exodus 7:13 Pharaoh, however, was obstinate and would not listen to them, just as the LORD had foretold.
Exodus 7:14 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Pharaoh is obdurate in refusing to let the people go.

Exodus 11:1 Then the LORD told Moses, "One more plague will I bring upon Pharaoh and upon Egypt. After that he will let you depart. In fact, he will not merely let you go; he will drive you away.
Exodus 11:2 Instruct your people that every man is to ask his neighbor, and every woman her neighbor, for silver and gold articles and for clothing."
Exodus 11:3 The LORD indeed made the Egyptians well-disposed toward the people; Moses himself was very highly regarded by Pharaoh's servants and the people in the land of Egypt.
Exodus 11:4 Moses then said, "Thus says the LORD: At midnight I will go forth through Egypt.
Exodus 11:5 Every first-born in this land shall die, from the first-born of Pharaoh on the throne to the first-born of the slave-girl at the handmill, as well as all the first-born of the animals.
Exodus 11:6 Then there shall be loud wailing throughout the land of Egypt, such as has never been, nor will ever be again.
Exodus 11:7 But among the Israelites and their animals not even a dog shall growl, so that you may know how the LORD distinguishes between the Egyptians and the Israelites.

That being said, let us now turn to the story of Joseph and his brothers for another example of God allowing evil to happen in order to bring about a greater good.

Joseph's brothers sold Joseph into slavery due their own jealousy of Jospeh being the favorite son of their father Israel (Jacob).

Genesis 37:3 Israel loved Joseph best of all his sons, for he was the child of his old age; and he had made him a long tunic.
Genesis 37:4 When his brothers saw that their father loved him best of all his sons, they hated him so much that they would not even greet him.

Genesis 37:26 Judah said to his brothers: "What is to be gained by killing our brother and concealing his blood?
Genesis 37:27 Rather, let us sell him to these Ishmaelites, instead of doing away with him ourselves. After all, he is our brother, our own flesh." His brothers agreed.
Genesis 37:28 They sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites for twenty pieces of silver. Some Midianite traders passed by, and they pulled Joseph up out of the cistern and took him to Egypt.

God allowed Joseph's brothers to sell him into slavery to draw a greater good from the situation. God used that terrible evil to bring Joseph to Egypt and to raise him up in the government of Egypt so that when the Jewish people were suffering from a famine and Joseph's brothers came to Egypt to try and recieve help, Joseph was in a position to save his people from dying a horrible death.

Jospeh himself explained to his brothers that they sold him into slavery for evil reasons but God allowed it to occur for a greater good.

Genesis 45:4 "Come closer to me," he told his brothers. When they had done so, he said: "I am your brother Joseph, whom you once sold into Egypt.
Genesis 45:5 But now do not be distressed, and do not reproach yourselves for having sold me here. It was really for the sake of saving lives that God sent me here ahead of you.
Genesis 45:6 For two years now the famine has been in the land, and for five more years tillage will yield no harvest.
Genesis 45:7 God, therefore, sent me on ahead of you to ensure for you a remnant on earth and to save your lives in an extraordinary deliverance.
Genesis 45:8 So it was not really you but God who had me come here; and he has made of me a father to Pharaoh, lord of all his household, and ruler over the whole land of Egypt.

Perhaps the greatest example of God allowing evil to occur to draw a greater good from the situation is found in the crucifixtion of our Lord Jesus Chrsit. The greatest evil ever done in the history of mankind was when man killed God, by crucifying our Lord on the cross.

However, God allowed this to happen in order to bring about the greatest good that ever came about in the history of mankind, God saving man from eternal damnation in the fires of hell by our Lord's death on the cross.

Mark 15:9 Pilate answered, "Do you want me to release to you the king of the Jews?"
Mark 15:10 For he knew that it was out of envy that the chief priests had handed him over.
Mark 15:11 But the chief priests stirred up the crowd to have him release Barabbas for them instead.
Mark 15:12 Pilate again said to them in reply, "Then what (do you want) me to do with (the man you call) the king of the Jews?"
Mark 15:13 They shouted again, "Crucify him."
Mark 15:14 Pilate said to them, "Why? What evil has he done?" They only shouted the louder, "Crucify him."
Mark 15:15 So Pilate, wishing to satisfy the crowd, released Barabbas to them and, after he had Jesus scourged, handed him over to be crucified.

Romans 5:17 For if, by the transgression of one person, death came to reign through that one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of justification come to reign in life through the one person Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:18 In conclusion, just as through one transgression condemnation came upon all, so through one righteous act acquittal and life came to all.

2) Murdering women and children

We as Christians must remember that God is the author and creator of all life. This means that every single day which we are given is also an unmerited gift from God which He, by no means, owes us.

If God decided to wipe out every human being alive right now and send them all to hell forever, He would be within His right to do so. We could not accuse him of being evil in the slightest, since both physical and spiritual death are what we all deserve, due to original sin.

Psalms 139:13 You formed my inmost being; you knit me in my mother's womb.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This may be something that is difficult for us, in the West, to hear and accept, especially in our individualistic, self-centered culture we now live in today, where we as individuals are taught to demand and exercise our apparent God-given rights time and time again, even when these supposed right do not stem from God at all, but our own selfishness and evil desires (abortion and homosexual marriage are two prime examples).

However, truth is truth, whether we accept it or reject it. Most people don't like the fact that Christianity teaches us that we are all sinners and are in need of salvation from God, Who is our Creator and Who will be our Judge after we die. The world refuses to accept the fact that God's unmerited grace and forgiveness is needed for mankind to be saved from the fires of hell. Their indivdual opinions do not change the immutable truth of God's laws, God's justice, and God's grace nor will their demand that they have a right to heaven (and also to believe whatever they want since they feel that there are many raods to heaven) keep them from eternal damnation in the fires of hell.

God is the Creator and we are the creation. God makes the rules, we do not. We can only choose whether or not to submit to God's will and His truth. However, just as there were terrible physical consequences for Pharoah and Egypt when they refused to submit to God, there will be terrible spiritual consequences for everyone else who refuses to submit to God. Just as their was great physical reward for Moses and the Jewish people who submitted to God, there will be great spiritual reward for everyone else who submits to God.

That being said, considering the fact that life is a free gift from the Creator, God has the authority to withhold that gift, as well, whenever He deems it is necessary to accomplish His will here on earth. We do not have the right to demand from God how long we shall live and we also do not have a right to take another life because the gift of life is not from us, it is from God alone.

(Continued in next post)
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 11th January 2011, 09:26 PM
Newbie

Gender: Male Faith: Catholic Party: US-Republican Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 6th December 2007
Posts: 66
Blessings: 71,868
My Mood Angelic
Reps: 89,368,938,954,506 (power: 89,368,938,961)
YinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond repute
YinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond reputeYinandYang has a reputation beyond repute
(Continued from previous post)

3) Monogamy being found in the New Testament but not in the Old Testament

The original intention of marriage was for it to be between one man and one woman, and also that the oath taken before God would never be broken by divorce, but would continue on for the entirety of each spouses life. However, our Lord Himself explains why divorce was allowed by God, in the Gospel of Saint Matthew.

Genesis 2:24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body.

Matthew 19:8 He said to them, "Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.

Once again we need to look at the bigger picture. We know that God did not will for Adam and Eve to disobey Him in the Garden of Eden, but allowed for it to occur due to the gift of free will He bestowed upon them.

However, once Adam and Eve had disobeyed God and caused themselves to suffer from the consequences of original sin and seperation from their Creator, God immediately began working with mankind to restore the communion that once existed between Himself and His creation.

Genesis 3:14 Then the LORD God said to the serpent: "Because you have done this, you shall be banned from all the animals and from all the wild creatures; On your belly shall you crawl, and dirt shall you eat all the days of your life.
Genesis 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."

This is the first prophecy of the coming Messiah Who would destroy the new ruler of this world, the devil, and who would be the new Adam, which would come forth from the new Eve, our blessed mother Mary. For just as Eve was the mother of all of the living, in a physical sense, Mary would become the mother of all of the living, in a spiritual sense.

Thus we see God, throughout history working to bring mankind back into communion with Him. This took place on many levels, including marriage.

Again, God's original design for marraiger was between one man and one woman, the two becoming one flesh. However, humanity became corrupted by original sin and thus God slowly brought humanity back to Him, even in regards to the original intention and purpose of marriage.

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body.
Ephesians 5:24 As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything.
Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her
Ephesians 5:26 to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word,
Ephesians 5:27 that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
Ephesians 5:28 So (also) husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
Ephesians 5:29 For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church,
Ephesians 5:30 because we are members of his body.
Ephesians 5:31 "For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."
Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.
Ephesians 5:33 In any case, each one of you should love his wife as himself, and the wife should respect her husband.

So we can see God, in the New Testament, finally bringing mankind back to the original intention of marriage, that being marriage between one man and one woman.

4) Slavery

A similar explanation as that used above for monogamy in marriage can also be used to explain the reasons why slavery was prevelant in Old Testament times.

God was working with mankind, throughout history, in order to bring mankind to the truth of how workers should be treated.

In the book of Exodus, we have already seen that, from the beginning, God was always against slavery. It was Pharoah and the Egyptians who enslaved God's people, the Jews, and it was God alone who brought them out of that bondage of slavery and into the promised land.

Exodus 3:7 But the LORD said, "I have witnessed the affliction of my people in Egypt and have heard their cry of complaint against their slave drivers, so I know well what they are suffering.
Exodus 3:8 Therefore I have come down to rescue them from the hands of the Egyptians and lead them out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey, the country of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites.
Exodus 3:9 So indeed the cry of the Israelites has reached me, and I have truly noted that the Egyptians are oppressing them.

Exodus 6:6 Therefore, say to the Israelites: I am the LORD. I will free you from the forced labor of the Egyptians and will deliver you from their slavery. I will rescue you by my outstretched arm and with mighty acts of judgment.

We can see God, in the New Testament, telling us, through the writings of Saint Paul, that workers deserve to be adequately paid:

1 Timothy 5:18 For the scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it is threshing," and, "A worker deserves his pay."

Thus we can see that God never supported slavery, and was actualy vehemently against it from the beginning.

That being said, I would like to add something to the previous explanations, which I briefly touched on earlier, which is the symbolism found in the Old Testament regarding how people were treated physically and how that symbolism represented the way in which we, as Christians, are treated spiritually.

Thus, we can see a link between the physical slavery of the Jewish people in Egypt and their eventual liberation and the spiritual slavery which ensares all of mankind, due to original sin, and the spiritual liberation we recieve by becoming Christians.

Romans 6:17 But thanks be to God that, although you were once slaves of sin, you have become obedient from the heart to the pattern of teaching to which you were entrusted.

We can also see a parallel between that of Pharoah and the devil, both of whom refused to allow God's people to be set free to worship God in spirit and in truth, until God displayed His power and might, by the plagues of Egypt and by the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, thus forcing them to release the hold on their slaves.

God allowed Pharoah to continue in his disobedience and defiance in order to show His people the need they had for God's unmerited help and favor in order to be physically freed from their bondage, in a similar way that God allows the devil to continue in his disobedience and defiance in order to show all of mankind the need for God's unmerited grace and favor in being set free from their spiritual bondage to sin and death.

Also, the crossing of the Red Sea and the cleansing flood during Noah's time both prefigure and represent the Sacrament of Baptism, which is how we initially become Christians and are cleansed and set free from our spiritual enslavement to sin.

1 Peter 3:21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

In Conclusion,

We have to accept the fact that there are times in which we might not be able to fully understand God's will, but we must also realize that the reason this is so is because God is an infinite Being Who really cannot be fully comprehended by a finite being like ourselves.

We have to trust in God's Divine Providence and Goodness and also accept the fact that He is God and we are not. We must realize too that God does not owe us anything, including an explanation for His actions. We need to simply accept the truth that God makes the rules, we do not.

We can either remain in rebellion against God, like Pharoah, the world, and the devil continue to do, or we can humbly submit ourselves and our will to God, like Moses, the Jewish people and fellow Christians continue to do.

Only by submitting to God, His truth, and His will can we recieve the greatest gift of all, the unmerited grace and favor of eternal life and happiness in the eternal beatitude of heaven with God the Holy Trinity, the blessed Virgin Mary, and all of the angels and saints who have served the One, True, God, throughout the ages.

I hope this helps.

May God bless you and Mary keep you in her prayers always.

YinandYang
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 11th January 2011, 10:36 PM
Angelsword777's Avatar
Regular Member

Gender: Male Faith: Christian Party: US-Republican Country: United States Member For 3 Years
 
Join Date: 1st September 2010
Location: New York
Posts: 216
Blessings: 26,294
My Mood Amused
Reps: 9,312,646,699,147,696 (power: 9,312,646,699,151)
Angelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond repute
Angelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond reputeAngelsword777 has a reputation beyond repute
Good reply YinYang

except the part about receiving the gifts of Virgin Mary, the angels and the saints...

Even though I have a high respect for Mary, Angels and Saints...All that truly matters is God
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 12th January 2011, 08:29 AM
Regular Member

Gender: Male Married Faith: Baptist Member For 3 Years
 
Join Date: 31st December 2010
Posts: 458
Blessings: 26,285
Reps: 49,122,052,023,916,432 (power: 0)
Benevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond repute
Benevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond reputeBenevolous has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by YinandYang
For just as Eve was the mother of all of the living, in a physical sense, Mary would become the mother of all of the living, in a spiritual sense.
Nonsense!

1 Timothy 5:18 For the scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it is threshing," and, "A worker deserves his pay."

Thus we can see that God never supported slavery, and was actualy vehemently against it from the beginning.
Actually, that passage has nothing to do with slavery.

That being said, I

Also, the crossing of the Red Sea and the cleansing flood during Noah's time both prefigure and represent the Sacrament of Baptism, which is how we initially become Christians and are cleansed and set free from our spiritual enslavement to sin.
Seriously??? How on Earth did you come to this conclusion?

1 Peter 3:21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Ironic that you would quote a verse that says that baptism does not remove sin in an attempt to prove that baptism removes sin.

May God bless you and Mary keep you in her prayers always.
Mary's dead, son.

Last edited by Benevolous; 12th January 2011 at 08:55 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 13th January 2011, 03:33 PM
Newbie

Gender: Male Faith: Christian Member For 3 Years
 
Join Date: 12th January 2011
Posts: 86
Blessings: 21,838
Reps: 3,742,888,699,417 (power: 3,742,888,703)
PeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond repute
PeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond reputePeregrineT has a reputation beyond repute
So to me there are three questions here...

1. Why does God harden peoples hearts, and isn't that cruel of Him to make bad things happen?

2. Why does the bible condone slavery and how bad was it?

3. Does the bible condone polygomy?

1. To answere the first, that is a difficult quesiton. But in order to understand it, to have a right view of God, you must also have a right view of people. You seem to view people as being basically good, that when God interferes in their lives, he can PREVENT them from doing good. This is not the case and supported no where in scripture. People if left alone will do evil. If God had just "left" Pharoah alone he would not, of his own free will have chosen to do the right thing, the thing that would be obedient to God. Have you ever noticed that the people who seem to be closest to God seem to be the ones who do the most good? And that those who are farthest from him are the ones who do the most evil? Do you assume that they draw near to God, or away, because of how they already are? Or do you see, rightly in my opinion, that they are doing good because they are closer to God, because he impacts their lives more? How you view God, and how you view people greatly impacts how you read scripture and your view of right and wrong. People if left to themselves would run straight to hell. God does not send them there, they go there freely. It is only when he intervenes that they are saved. If you were to say that a man who is faced with a decision, and has free will choses the right choice devoid of any of God's influence, then he is capable of good outside of God. Good then exists outside of God. Good then is not a creation of God, and God cannot rule over it, but instead since God is all good, good then encompases God, and rules God. This is not the case, and should never be thought to tbe the case. God is not bound by anything or ruled by anything, otherwise he ceases to be God. So a man left to himself given a free choice will always choose the evil one. So it is in understanding pharoah and other stories of the bible. God did not intervene and make things "worse", the fact there was ANYHING good in them was His prior intervention that we just dont give him credit for.

2. Slavery then was not how it is now. Sorry, its just true. It was indentured servitude. Do not read punishments for mistreating people as evidence that EVERYONE did it. But like today, people abuse other people and rules and break laws. They had criminals then like we do now, so they had to have laws against them and ways to punish them. I do believe God ordained slavery. After all, if slavery did not exist, how could we understand being slaves to sin, and now being slaves to righteousness? Slavery in a non-human form exists outside of human slavery.

3. Scripture never ever condones polygomy. Do not make the logical fallacy of arguement by silence, in saying that because it does not condemn it in every case, that it promotes it. IT never does. Scripture says in places that it is between a man and a woman, and the two shall be come one. Not the three, not 1+1+1. It commands to punish any who divorce and take another wife.

Scripture is not easy to read sometimes. But mostly because we come at it with our preconceived notions and sinful ideas. It takes a long time to get past that. But its good to seek answers, and hopefully your faith will be strengthened.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Return to Christian Apologetics

Thread Tools
Display Modes


 
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:16 PM.