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  #811  
Old 6th January 2011, 01:00 PM
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Last week Orthodox Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew released an encyclical castigating what he called Orthodox “fanatics” who object to Orthodox ecumenical involvement. The encyclical was well received in Christian circles outside of the Orthodox Church, but raised eyebrows among those in the fold, not least for the strength of the language.
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  #812  
Old 6th January 2011, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by 88Devin07 View Post
Well see, that is the thing... The Orthodox Church chose to suffer (and many died) rather than unite with the Roman Catholics, even when Islam was knocking on it's very front door.
Look at the Middle East today, it's mostly Muslim, and yet there are still Orthodox, and while there aren't as many, they still hold to the faith.

Look at Russia, most people still remained Orthodox Christians, even when the Soviet Union was actively hunting them down and throwing them into concentration camps (see "gulags"). 9 million Orthodox Christians were martyred from 1917-1990 by the Soviet Union. Yet, we see today that because of their faithfulness, 80-90% of Russia is once again Orthodox, and over 30,000 Churches in Russia have been rebuilt since 1990.

You can also refer to Early Christianity, where they chose persecution and martyrdom over survival.

Orthodox Christianity has suffered under Islam constantly for 1,300 years, so even if Islam takes over Western Europe, it wouldn't be anything new to Orthodox Christians.

We must also remember that modern movements, even secularism, is extremely similar to the Paganism of Rome and Greece.

No matter the political circumstances, no matter the circumstances period, as Orthodox, we cannot and will not ever compromise our faith.

We believe that in the end, there will be a great tribulation (not in the sense that Protestants think of it), this will NOT be escaped by ANYONE. Even then, we must remain faithful to Orthodoxy.
Your explanation does make a lot of sense. However, I firmly believe that by 2100 Western Christianity will be threatened on a level not seen since the days of the Early Church. I do not necessarily speak of a persecution that would take thousands of lives, though such is possible. I refer to a huge growth in Atheism and Secularism especially, but a growth in Islam to a lesser extent. I believe that a reunion between the RCC and the EO would also bring along with it anywhere from 5%-25% of Protestants eventually and that such a unifed new Church would have the best chance to survive as a viable institution going forward. As a non-Catholic and a non-Orthodox, I am deeply saddened to see that prospects for a reunion seem so dim.
  #813  
Old 6th January 2011, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ikonographics View Post
When you show me where the Bible speaks of the immaculate conception.

Mary is Full Of Grace Before John Baptist is born, that easy.
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  #814  
Old 6th January 2011, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Alonso_Castillo View Post
Mary is Full Of Grace Before John Baptist is born, that easy.
That says nothing of Her conception. You haven't told me where the BIBLE says that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father "and the Son".
  #815  
Old 6th January 2011, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Basil the Great View Post
Your explanation does make a lot of sense. However, I firmly believe that by 2100 Western Christianity will be threatened on a level not seen since the days of the Early Church. I do not necessarily speak of a persecution that would take thousands of lives, though such is possible. I refer to a huge growth in Atheism and Secularism especially, but a growth in Islam to a lesser extent. I believe that a reunion between the RCC and the EO would also bring along with it anywhere from 5%-25% of Protestants eventually and that such a unifed new Church would have the best chance to survive as a viable institution going forward. As a non-Catholic and a non-Orthodox, I am deeply saddened to see that prospects for a reunion seem so dim.
Reunion is not a sign of "progress" in Christianity, nor is it a sign of a "golden age"... Reunion is not a way to solve problems. Remaining faithful to Orthodoxy is what is important and is what spreads the faith. We ONLY desire "union/reunion" because we desire all people to be united to Christ's Church. We don't think we are missing a part of the Church.
In essence, "ecumenism" for us, is evangelism. It's not seeking a part of the Church that is separated...

If atheism and secularism conquers areas like the U.S. and Western Europe, it's not the fault of Orthodoxy...
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  #816  
Old 6th January 2011, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Thekla View Post
We are not "sola scriptura" in the EO. Can you demonstrate from the Bible that the deposit of faith is only the responsibility of episkopos ?

Paul teaches that the deposit of faith was held by the Jews. Not this person or that, nor this 'office' or that.

You will see that in the early Councils, all sides appealed to the Scriptures; the measure was what had been received and the Scriptures.
No tradition is against Apostles. If you can´t show that Monks are over bishops, then to proclaim such think is unorthodox.
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Last edited by Alonso_Castillo; 6th January 2011 at 01:13 PM.
  #817  
Old 6th January 2011, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Magnus Maximus View Post
Last week Orthodox Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew released an encyclical castigating what he called Orthodox “fanatics” who object to Orthodox ecumenical involvement. The encyclical was well received in Christian circles outside of the Orthodox Church, but raised eyebrows among those in the fold, not least for the strength of the language.

You have to remember that he is one bishop. I do think he is a good man, but this is not the first time that a Patriarch of Constantinople has eyed a union with Rome.

In the 13th cent it happened. The Monks of Mt. Athos rejected it. The union was introduced by force and the monks of Mt. Athos were slaughtered.
  #818  
Old 6th January 2011, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ikonographics View Post
That says nothing of Her conception. You haven't told me where the BIBLE says that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father "and the Son".
With no baptism, no redemption from the sin of Adam. Mary from her conception has her existance, and no way she could be cleaned of the original sin without baptism. If John baptist hasn't born when she was concibed, then she would have been born in sin. ¿How can the Son of God be incarnated in a sinner? thus, She was preserved by an especial grace from the original sin from her very conception. That is Way Gabriel claimed her to be FULL OF GRACE.

For Filioque, Go to John 20,22.
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  #819  
Old 6th January 2011, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by cobweb View Post
You have to remember that he is one bishop. I do think he is a good man, but this is not the first time that a Patriarch of Constantinople has eyed a union with Rome.

In the 13th cent it happened. The Monks of Mt. Athos rejected it. The union was introduced by force and the monks of Mt. Athos were slaughtered.
Exactly...

After Florence in the 1400s, the monks and the laity (and many clergy) rejected the "union". They banned the Bishops that signed from entering their cities, and even when it was imposed on them, they refused to attend Church with those that signed the document of union.
Eventually those that signed (and that refused to recant) were (mostly) kicked out and fled back to Rome.

Eventually another Council was held in the East by Bishops and Clergy and it absolutely rejected the so-called "union".

It's interesting to note that the Robber Council of Florence was met in the West by ringing church bells, and in the East it was met by protests and riots. (though I don't think it really got to the point of severe riots) But obviously, when your Bishops apostatized and kissed the knee of the Pope (and declaring him supreme) your going to riot and show them that they are now apostates and are no longer worthy of being called Bishops.

So, even 1 Bishop (or even 100 Bishops) doesn't mean anything in Orthodoxy, as there are about 250 million of us, with thousands of Bishops.
At Florence there were something like 30 Orthodox Bishops, all but one signed. Even the Emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire signed.
Not to mention that it is likely that the Patriarch of Constantinople didn't actually sign the union. (he was found dead mysteriously in his bed with a document next to him with his "signature" that agreed to all terms of the union)
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Last edited by 88Devin07; 6th January 2011 at 01:18 PM.
  #820  
Old 6th January 2011, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by 88Devin07 View Post
Reunion is not a sign of "progress" in Christianity, nor is it a sign of a "golden age"... Reunion is not a way to solve problems. Remaining faithful to Orthodoxy is what is important and is what spreads the faith. We ONLY desire "union/reunion" because we desire all people to be united to Christ's Church. We don't think we are missing a part of the Church.
In essence, "ecumenism" for us, is evangelism. It's not seeking a part of the Church that is separated...

If atheism and secularism conquers areas like the U.S. and Western Europe, it's not the fault of Orthodoxy...

Since Catholics and Protestants make up the bulk of the Christian population in Western Europe and North America, if Atheism and Secularism conquers said areas, then I suppose most of the responsibility will lie at the feet of the RCC and the Protestant ecclesiastical communities.
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