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7th January 2011, 11:33 AM
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Reps: 126,994,708,399,577,616 (power: 126,994,708,399,580) | | Originally Posted by Source Scripture  Jesus made a negative statement, that caused all of our troubles each day.
Matthew 6:34 “Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.
this is irony, right?  |
7th January 2011, 03:23 PM
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Reps: 21,906,481,303,397,156 (power: 21,906,481,303,400) | | Originally Posted by Dr.Strangelove I believe faith develops when we hear or read the evidence and substance of the conception, birth, life, death and ressurection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The Lord has never talked this to me audibly, but I read it in the Gospels. Thats when I believed.
Did the Lord say all of those things to you?.....audibly? Did the Lord personally talk to you of the evidence and substance of Jesus?
Doc.
Hi Doc.
The Lord Talks to his sheep. His sheep hear his voice. Audibly? eh...probably not. But spiritualy, and OUTSIDE of the scriptures as well.
God HAS talked to me. Do i beleive in this whole "word of faith" power in the spoken word stuff? No...not specifically...Well i mean i beleve in it...and its Not Always from God...actually probably most of the time it isnt. However, God DOES speak...talk to him, Mostly in prayer, but those who worship God worship him in Spirit and in thruth. and he speaks spirit to spirit. So Yes The LORD DOES talk. However if your hearing voices in your head...Id start praying...
Faith is the evidence of thigngs unseen. Yes. The evidence of GOD is Faith.
But He gives us Faith to Use. ASK and it shall be given. And again its Different then this Word of faith, name it and claim it stuff. THAT is New-agey...as you can see from that post i made. However...PRAy earnestly, beleiving that God will answer, and He will show you, he will bless you for having faith in him...and blessing wont be Financial either...:shakes his fist at Creflo dollar" ...But Spiritual, and in the Will of GOD. What is the Will of God? Well thats why we have the Scriptures. Jesus Bless you.  |
7th January 2011, 07:20 PM
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Reps: 307,459,478,723,246,144 (power: 307,459,478,723,252) | | An Overview of the Excesses, Errors and Outright Heresy Found in This Popular Movement of Today
By Chris Simpson The Gnostic Heresy of the ‘Word of Faith’ Movement
Although it’s clearly evident the Holy Spirit can, and will, speak to us in our lives, it’s equally important that we exercise discernment concerning the things that we hear. Many Word of Faith ministers today speak of receiving what they call “revelation knowledge” - indicating that God has given the minister special revelation by the Holy Spirit, right there on the spot. It's typically the word of knowledge, word of wisdom, or prophecy. It could be tongues and interpretation if the preacher is praying in the Spirit while he preaches (pausing to pray ocassionally). He most certainly does.
Often the people who preach these doctrines are the ones who never received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This pretty much explains everything.
The intention is for this revelation to be accepted simply out of respect for the person who received it, with no admonition to check if it lines up with the revealed truth of God’s Word, and borne witness in the Spirit among mature believers. If this ‘instant revelation’ does not line up with what God has already spoken through the Scriptures, it can lead to serious error, regardless of the charismatic figure who received it. Everything is to be judged by the Word and Spirit. This is widely preached in "Word of Faith" type churches. The whole point of revelation, is that it's to be expected. By both the speaker and listener. You get to judge and do judge everything. Nothing slips by unjudged. If a young Christian receives everything that's put into his mouth, he needs to hang out where good things are served. That's what god parents are for.
Again, it is one of the presumptions of Word of Faith doctrine to extract and apply the blessings of the millennial reign to this present age. Yes, Jesus died to heal us totally, but this healing will not be completed until the fullness of the salvation occurs at the Second Coming...Presently, we do not have the millennial promise of healing. Or, to put it another way, we do not have the promise of being healed of everything, every time we pray. In his second letter to Timothy, Paul writes, “Erastus stayed in Corinth, but Trophimus I have left in Miletus sick” (2 Tim 4:20). Even the apostle Paul had followers that were not instantly healed! (see also, Phil. 2:25-27; 1 Tim 5:23) God Does Heal Today! We have the New Covenant promise of healing. We're the body of Christ. Is the body of Christ intended to be sick? Use some common sense too, it goes a long way.
I'm always amazed at how people who knock healing and put off the fullness as intended by God covered by the atonement will always tuck at the end of their "Good news" that God heals today as if to shout good news! How do you know whether or not you can pray in faith if you don't know His will? How do you pray the prayer of faith without knowing the will of God? How do the "elders of the church" pray the pray of faith if they don't know. Won't it be the prayer of hope?
The Word of Faith adherents are on one side, concluding that all sickness is of the devil. They believe that to be sick and to not get healed indicates a lack of faith. And, when someone does get healed, the actions taken in seeking healing often become a formula that they teach should work every time. According to this theology, a person with an illness need only apply certain spiritual principles in order to experience healing. Sickness is of the devil. It's not of God. You have your part to play in appropriating wholeness and healing. Many scriptures point to what we do with our time, our mind, and our hearts in receiving the Word of God and doing it in our lives. Without this, we can expect to be in need of restoration. How do you believe for it though if the promise doesn't apply to you (assuming you meet the conditions)? Some may say it is a lack of faith, and in some cases that would be correct, for it you don't know the will of God in your situation, you don't have faith. It's not necessarily JUST a lack of faith. Word of faith preachers are quick to say to be a do'er of the Word. That's one of the loudest themes in the church in the last 30 years or more.
The problem with people like this is that they point to those who go to the left or to the right and ignore the narrow way adherents, which is who they are really preaching to. Even those who get into a ditch can get right back on the narrow road and into faith.
The good news is that, while we may not have all the blessings of the millennial reign in this age, we are in the dispensation of grace. We now have the “earnest,” or “first fruits” of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13-14). What this means is that God, in his mercy, does release the gifts of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:8-10), and one of these gifts is healing. God does heal in the here and now! But, He heals on the basis of his own mercy and kindness, and according to His purposes and will.
It’s Grace, Not Law!
While the lamb may not lie with the lion at this time, healing is for everyone who inclines, hears, believes, and obeys. It's not just something God drops on you. Although He does do this, if you rely on only this, you'll miss out on the provision Jesus died for. Don't receive the lie that says to believe God that healing is for your life if you meet the conditions is a "Heresy". I tell you it's the good news!
The Word of Faith movement has a basic formula by which to fight sickness. It goes something like this: never confess physical symptoms, because that constitutes a “bad confession;” stand on the Word and ignore the symptoms. Under this paradigm, you are taught that “what you confess, you possess.” This is twisting the truth. The predominant word of faith doctrine on physical symptoms is not to lie about them, it's to align yourself with God's purpose for your life and then agree what He says about it. In spite of the symptoms. Symptoms are usually just that. A symptom of some greater problem. If the problem is with you, then you must address that first. Denying your pains while being out of sorts with God is a lie. To live in harmony with God's will and to agree with symptoms of disharmony is also a lie. The Bible teaches us to be like Abraham and call it like it doesn't appear. Call it like it is: Like God said it.
The heresy of this Word of Faith “formula” lies in believing that the blessing comes from knowing and applying spiritual laws, rather than purely from the grace of God. This man wasn't paying attention if he attended something akin to a "word of faith" church. It's not a formula. It's biblical precepts in the Bible, the instruction manual for righteousness. It begins with being a do'er of the Word. To call that a formula is a heresy. It is truth. If God says if you abide and you ask, believe and you receive, that's what it means. If that's not happening when you ask, then either God's Word is a lie or you need understanding so that you can ask and receive (it's called abiding). Since God's Word is no lie, then the problem is with us. God has shown how to believe Him before we see the results. It's called faith!
The implication is that the power lies in the formula and in the words spoken. It is in the technique that you are actually putting your faith, not so much in God Himself. And, many Word of Faith teachers imply that these principles work for believers and nonbelievers alike. The spiritual principles are said to work even outside of a relationship with God through Christ. They work in the negative for unbelievers. Life and death in the tongue. There's no life in the unbeliever, but plenty of death. For believer's if you agree with God, there is life. It's called lining up your rudder with the direction you want your ship to go. It's no mystery.
Word of Faith Occult’s Connection
Practices like “visualization” and “speaking things into existence” are not at all new. What is new is to find them openly accepted and practiced within Christian churches. The Church does not know that, in embracing many of these Word of Faith teachings, they are embracing occultic thought. The occult are the one's who have perverted the ways of God by perverting the power in the tongue that we as people have with a physical body here on this Earth. We were intended to have authority. That's why the enemy uses people's words to do his work. Humans have authority on this Earth. Our restored authority is in Christ. Nothing in Christianity is outside of this mindset. Literally, think of Christ. The only shortcoming are our lack of maturity and ignorance in the ways of God.
That explains why damaged and destroyed lives are so often the fruit of this erroneous teaching. The Word of Faith movement teaches that positive confession has the power to create reality. It's only agreement with God. In it's purest form, a believer's words are what he hears from above. Those words are to be spoken in faith. In the youth of a Christian, he must learn to speak in agreement with God and God will train the believer as a Father. If you haven't been baptized in the Holy Spirit, this will truly be a foreign concept. Those who have know that God teaches powerfully. Although God has creative power, to speak in agreement with His mind is to loose ability on the Earth as Jesus lives through us. It's not a separation and a power that is applied by formula. It is unity and agreement.
This philosophy can be traced back to Phineas Quimby, the founder of what is known as the “New Thought Movement.” The power of positive confession was one of the pillars of his metaphysical belief system. Positive confession on its own is a cheap copy of what God intends His children to speak like. It has no life of its own. Only in agreement with the oracles of God, which the Holy Spirit agrees with ministers life. The closer you are to the perfect will of God, the more power is in your words. Jesus lives through us and His Words were full of power!
This "teaching" is very much like Dave Hunt's book from the 80s. It took some misguided preachers who were not filled with the Spirit and mixed them with some very powerful preachers with an anointing and made some gross assumptions that were designed to lead people away from moving with the anointing. The enemy has worked hard to derail a powerful move of the church.
The belief that healing is a part of the atonement is based almost entirely on one scripture, Isaiah 53:5, which is also quoted by Peter (2 Peter 2:24), “with His stripes we are healed.” But, one scripture is hardly enough evidence on which to base an entire movement, especially when this scripture’s context, upon close examination, has nothing to do with physical healing! Healing is a blessing of the atonement, subject to the will of God. It is a benefit of the atonement in the same way that prophecy, discernment, or any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are. There is far more than this!
They did not look on healing as their right, but as a gracious privilege extended to them.” Everything was given to us as a gift. However, it is to be appropriated by faith. If you do not have a revelation of this in your spirit, you won't be able to apply it by faith and will be left as many, "Father, if it be thy will", which is never faith.
Or, as the teachers of the Word of Faith message might say, “special revelation knowledge.” When there is no healing observed after an individual has been prayed for, Word of Faith practitioners say that there is either a lack of faith, or that the individual does not have the knowledge necessary for divine healing. This position infers that special knowledge or special formulas are necessary for results, which is a
characteristic of Gnosticism. Another twist of the truth. Faith says that even if you don't see results, you believe God until you do. Obviously if fruits are not eventually forthcoming, you must ascertain why not. You m ust hear to have faith. Faith comes by hearing. "The hearing of faith". It's revelation knowledge. It's how the church prevails over all the work of the enemy. It's for every believer.
Really, it's just the Word of God. Some have made a denomination of this and called it the "Word of Faith" movement. It's sound biblical principles of faith working by love. It's obedience. It's called hearing God and being a do'er of His Word. That means receiving what He's sent His Son for you to have. You can die and never receive your healing and you'll go to Heaven, but that is not God's best.
It's ignorance to dismiss something the Holy Spirit Himself bears witness to and try to apply a worldly tag on it and label it as something the devil is working through the new age movement. The devil always perverts the things of God.
Look at the gifts of the Spirit. The enemy uses fortune tellers, palm readers, "faith healers", etc. and they use demonic power and ability for evil means to "do good". He is only a counterfeit. To have a counterfeit means there are real gifts.
Last edited by Alive_Again; 8th January 2011 at 02:58 AM.
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7th January 2011, 07:37 PM
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Reps: 370,207,511,616,986,688 (power: 0) | | IS this God or coinsidence? I want your opinion. |
8th January 2011, 01:33 AM
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Reps: 180,541,869,577,821,184 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Alive_Again Look at the gifts of the Spirit. The enemy uses fortune tellers, palm readers, "faith healers", etc. and they use demonic power and ability for evil means to "do good". He is only a counterfeit. To have a counterfeit means there are real gifts.
How can you differentiate the counterfeit 'faith healers' from those with the genuine gift of healing? |
8th January 2011, 03:13 AM
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Reps: 307,459,478,723,246,144 (power: 307,459,478,723,252) | | Dr. Strangelove asked:
How can you differentiate the counterfeit 'faith healers' from those with the genuine gift of healing? I'm glad you asked that! By the fruits. Those working for God will lead people to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.
We do know that people will cast out devils and work wonders in the name of Jesus (not speaking evil soon afterwards), who aren't walking in love. They will be judged. Ultimately, everything points to Jesus.
Someone like those Mexican "faith healers" who operate in the devil's power by spirits who take over the bodies of a host do not lead people to Jesus. Strangely, they may acknowledge Mary. Funny how those concepts co-exist. Not that the real Mary would have anything to do with that. What is preached of Mary these days is not of God.
We know in the days ahead that lying signs and wonders will be worked. If we keep our eyes on Jesus the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. We must stay in prayer to be able to stand in the evil day.
"Faith" preachers of the Word of God will lead people to Jesus and give Him the glory. God is judging those ministers who allow sin in their lives and those who try to deceive the flock through trickery. Always judge and trust the inward witness. Be careful not to speak evil of ministries that you don't understand. If you're not led to them, don't go to them.
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8th January 2011, 03:25 AM
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Reps: 180,541,869,577,821,184 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Alive_Again I'm glad you asked that! By the fruits. Those working for God will lead people to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.
We do know that people will cast out devils and work wonders in the name of Jesus (not speaking evil soon afterwards), who aren't walking in love. They will be judged. Ultimately, everything points to Jesus.
Someone like those Mexican "faith healers" who operate in the devil's power by spirits who take over the bodies of a host do not lead people to Jesus. Strangely, they may acknowledge Mary. Funny how those concepts co-exist. Not that the real Mary would have anything to do with that. What is preached of Mary these days is not of God.
We know in the days ahead that lying signs and wonders will be worked. If we keep our eyes on Jesus the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. We must stay in prayer to be able to stand in the evil day.
"Faith" preachers of the Word of God will lead people to Jesus and give Him the glory. God is judging those ministers who allow sin in their lives and those who try to deceive the flock through trickery. Always judge and trust the inward witness. Be careful not to speak evil of ministries that you don't understand. If you're not led to them, don't go to them.
You didnt answer the question. You say those who point to Jesus are real, but then you say the phony's will also do this.
??
What fruit exactly are we lookig out for then?
Give me practical, on the ground advice for telling the difference between real faith healers and the phony ones. |
8th January 2011, 03:29 AM
|  | bind on pick up
 
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Reps: 991,847,741,051,487,232 (power: 991,847,741,051,504) | | Originally Posted by AdamKane IS this God or coinsidence? I want your opinion.
Just a quick observation, like the video said, it did more damage when it touched down again later. It did not "go" as it was commanded to do, and it obviously did not completely dissipate as they claimed. |
8th January 2011, 03:30 AM
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Reps: 180,541,869,577,821,184 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by SeekingTheKingdom Hi Doc.
The Lord Talks to his sheep. His sheep hear his voice. Audibly? eh...probably not. But spiritualy, and OUTSIDE of the scriptures as well.
God HAS talked to me. Do i beleive in this whole "word of faith" power in the spoken word stuff? No...not specifically...Well i mean i beleve in it...and its Not Always from God...actually probably most of the time it isnt. However, God DOES speak...talk to him, Mostly in prayer, but those who worship God worship him in Spirit and in thruth. and he speaks spirit to spirit. So Yes The LORD DOES talk. However if your hearing voices in your head...Id start praying...
Faith is the evidence of thigngs unseen. Yes. The evidence of GOD is Faith.
But He gives us Faith to Use. ASK and it shall be given. And again its Different then this Word of faith, name it and claim it stuff. THAT is New-agey...as you can see from that post i made. However...PRAy earnestly, beleiving that God will answer, and He will show you, he will bless you for having faith in him...and blessing wont be Financial either...:shakes his fist at Creflo dollar" ...But Spiritual, and in the Will of GOD. What is the Will of God? Well thats why we have the Scriptures. Jesus Bless you.
Totally agree mate.
I have a relationship with God. I pray and ask forgiveness for sins..and sometimes I ask questions and seek help. God will respond with changes in my life. or signs, or messages THROUGH LIFE. Definately not by a 2 way audible voice. |
8th January 2011, 12:58 PM
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Reps: 307,459,478,723,246,144 (power: 307,459,478,723,252) | | ...But spiritualy, and OUTSIDE of the scriptures as well.
God HAS talked to me. He uses a variety of ways to talk to us. If we're leavened with the leaven of the kingdom, we'll produce kingdom fruit.
The whole thing about the "spoken word" or "power of decrees" is whether or not your speaking things by faith that agree with His mind. If you do, many times there is power in them. If your life is set apart to Him as far as you know, that is often the case. If you're basically living in the world, you can declare God's Word but often the power isn't turned up, because your life doesn't reflect His glory.
Do i beleive in this whole "word of faith" power in the spoken word stuff? No...not specifically...Well i mean i beleve in it...and its Not Always from God...actually probably most of the time it isnt. Most of the time not? That means whoever you're referring to isn't becoming leavened, or rather with the wrong things. If you worship God, pray in the Spirit, meditate on His Word, He will impart a vision of His mind into your Spirit. Eventually your soul will also be renewed. As you speak after the revelation of God -- it doesn't necessarily need to be heard audibly (extremely rare), there is (resurrection) power or life in your words.
If you're prone to corrupt communication this will affect His flow within you. Really your mouth just reflects the state of your heart. It's not an independent operation.
However, God DOES speak...talk to him, Mostly in prayer, but those who worship God worship him in Spirit and in thruth. and he speaks spirit to spirit. So Yes The LORD DOES talk. However if your hearing voices in your head...Id start praying...
He speaks to you too. The less of us means the more of Him. It's up to us a lot of the time. We have to acknowledge His ministry within us as well. We may not form words that we point to as definitely being from God, but if we're doing the right "things", then He's definitely giving us His mind, the knowledge of His will, His wisdom, etc. When you know the will of God, you have faith. You know it because you "heard" it. If your mouth lines up with your revelation, you'll "order or decree" (after God) things for your life. Blessings. The counterpart to that is a curse, tainted springs, bad fruit, and loosing or permitting circumstances that oppose God's good plan for you.
But He gives us Faith to Use. ASK and it shall be given. And again its Different then this Word of faith, name it and claim it stuff. It's sad that the enemy has some measure of success to throw the WOF doctrines (as set forth in the scripture, not some freaky error) into a bad "light". It's all about flowing with God, in Christ. It's about Him living through us, and we are coming into agreement with Him. As we learn to hear His voice, we speak more accurately in the Spirit. Our words are Spirit and they are life. As we're growing in this, God trains us as His dear children, and teaches us to talk like Him. I'm sure it's quite cute. He turns up a measure of power as we're in training. He wants us to submit our tongues to Him completely and as we're abiding in His rest, we're in a true walk and talk of faith. As our hearing is more refined, we don't speak until we "hear" (truly). Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, and as we hear, as have faith and boldly declare things which are not as though they were.
I really believe Jesus wants you to understand this. Not just to take up for the WOF doctrine (as it really is) per sae, but rather because He wants to work these things in you for your abundant life benefit. He also wants you to stop (if you are) speaking against His move in your life and against His servants, of whom you don't understand, and thus speak in judgment against. This also wreaks havoc in your life, which God cares tremendously for.
shakes his fist at Creflo dollar" ... This is what you have to avoid like the plague. If you think someone is in deception just pray for them. Sometimes you'll find that the context of what they might be saying you would actually agree with. People do make honest mistakes, but praying for them rather than putting a bad "light" on them is the only way to go. It's important to repent of judgments made with your lips. What you've said and what you say determine the course of your direction and what you allow God to work (or even the enemy!) in your life.
THAT is New-agey...as you can see from that post i made. However...PRAy earnestly, beleiving that God will answer, and He will show you, he will bless you for having faith in him...and blessing wont be Financial either...:
Try not to let the enemy impose his "vision" of wrongdoing on literal New Covenant truth. Let the dead bury their dead. Be careful how you limit God. God wants to bless you financially too. We're not of the curse. If we speak against the blessing, we'll reap what we sow. We're to be diligent and obedient, but sweat is of the curse. It's not the rest and the yoke of ministry we're called to. Nothing wrong with physical labor, but we're supposed to be blessed in the things we put our hand to, because Jesus is living within us. That's greater than everyone in the Old Covenant. Think on this!God will allow us to be tested and to undergo suffering. We're supposed to keep our joy through it.
Their are some freaky, way out, abusing and presumptuous "believers" who enable to enemy to bring the truth into something spoken of in an evil manner. They're barely worth mentioning because our eyes are on the throne. We do consider the way of the transgressor, but only to cause us to have Godly fear and to be thankful for the measure of truth that lives within us.
If there were outright scoffers here, the Lord wouldn't let me go into detail here. He'd leave you as you were.
I hope you really hear what I'm saying. The Lord's pulled the reigns to the left and right slightly here and there as I've typed this. I'm keeping this to fundamental concepts of Him living through us. What do you say to these things? Can I get a yea and an amen?!!
Last edited by Alive_Again; 8th January 2011 at 01:39 PM.
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