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  #11  
Old 27th December 2010, 03:18 PM
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We had more in common with the Islamic world back then. We owned slaves and treated women like second class citizens in terms of legal rights.

Even then, even the most religious of early Americans aren't remembered for "honor killings", or particular brutality towards non-believers like we have with the Islamic world today.

After seeing the effects of radical Islam on 9/11, me thinks Washington and the Gang would have though twice about someone coming over here to preach Wahabist teachings.
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  #12  
Old 27th December 2010, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Bubbahotep View Post
We had more in common with the Islamic world back then. We owned slaves and treated women like second class citizens in terms of legal rights.

Even then, even the most religious of early Americans aren't remembered for "honor killings", or particular brutality towards non-believers like we have with the Islamic world today.

After seeing the effects of radical Islam on 9/11, me thinks Washington and the Gang would have though twice about someone coming over here to preach Wahabist teachings.
You have to understand that they way you see Islam through the lense of 9/11, is the way many others see religious Americans through their support of America's wars.
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  #13  
Old 27th December 2010, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by BoltNut View Post
An interesting post. But I still fail to see any correlation between this and the situation we have today.
The correlation, I think, is a bit misplaced, yet still relevant. It is not Islam as a collective of individuals that the US is at war with, or should be at war with; instead, the war ought to be against the radical fundamentalism that would take grudges centuries old and act out of vengeance today. Naturally, I am using the grudge thing as a weak, yet best case, example.


Originally Posted by A Is A View Post
Yeah, like America and Muslims aren't the archenemies some believe them to be. And that the Founding Fathers were brilliant men who respected many cultures and faiths.
Brilliant and respectful, yes- However, they were also not likely to abstain from violence because of half the reasons this nation has offered up in the past eight to ten years. Just sayin'.

Nice post, by the way.


Originally Posted by Steve Petersen View Post
How many years later were we fighting the Barbary Pirates?

This is more a correlation of today than the OP's.
Yes, and no. Our founders were certainly open to others of all faiths, ideals and nationalities. However, they were also not the type to be bullied. It is possible to have a war against extremists of a particular belief structure without condemning the entire following. Example: By now, most people know I have severe ideological differences with Islam in general, but I do not see every Muslim as an enemy.


Originally Posted by Bubbahotep View Post
We had more in common with the Islamic world back then. We owned slaves and treated women like second class citizens in terms of legal rights.

Even then, even the most religious of early Americans aren't remembered for "honor killings", or particular brutality towards non-believers like we have with the Islamic world today.

After seeing the effects of radical Islam on 9/11, me thinks Washington and the Gang would have though twice about someone coming over here to preach Wahabist teachings.
We did have more in common when one looks at the the fact that the things you mentioned were considered the norm by both cultures. However, the United States, and the peoples therein, had "evolved" past the treachery and cruelty of the Middle Ages. Were they still coming up with inventive new ways to kill my people? Oh, yes. Nevertheless, on the whole the US was about 200+ years ahead of those in the Barbary example, in terms of human rights awareness.


Originally Posted by Douger View Post
You have to understand that they way you see Islam through the lense of 9/11, is the way many others see religious Americans through their support of America's wars.
That is, perhaps, true. Nevertheless, there are two differences between the most recent examples of Islamic extremist "jihad" and the United States' war response: One group of examples were done in the name of a deity and possibly retribution; and one group in the name of defense, security and the usual national concerns.
The second difference is far greater: One was carried out by a loose-knit group of murderous religious fanatics, and the other by a sovereign nation acting in its best interest.
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  #14  
Old 28th December 2010, 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted by lordbt
Is there some sort of point you are trying to make there, A is A?


A Is A. responds
Yeah, like America and Muslims aren't the archenemies some believe them to be. And that the Founding Fathers were brilliant men who respected many cultures and faiths.

If you refresh yourself on American history you will see that Muslims have not been treated as archenemies when you look at it for the 234 years we have been a country. As a matter of fact America has been pretty good to Muslims. Muslims have all the rights that any one else does, we allow Muslims to build Mosques, and to proselytize their faith. Do all Muslim nations allow Christians and Jews to have the same rights and treatment that America has given Muslims?

Now as far as recent events, due in most part to 9-11, America has changed a bit of their view on Muslims. However, the majority of Americans and the powers of America have not treated Muslims as archenemies. We have gone after specific Muslims that have killed Americans in suicide attacks because of their radical Muslim beliefs.
We know the difference between a few religious nuts from Saudi Arabia that flew planes into our buildings and the Muslim nation of Saudi Arabia

If America’s majority held to the belief that Muslims are our archenemies then we would have attacked Lebanon when Muslims killed 244 marines, attacked Iran when they held Americans hostages, and attack Saudi Arabia because most of the 9-11 attackers came from Saudi Arabia.

So you see America is not all bad. In fact we even went to war with Iraq in the 1990s partly due to Saudi Arabia’s request. Furthermore we liberated the Kuwaitis from the brutality of their Muslim brothers in Iraq.
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  #15  
Old 28th December 2010, 03:41 PM
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Yeah, read this:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/no-professor-ahmed-the-founders-were-not-so-fond-of-islam/
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  #16  
Old 28th December 2010, 07:34 PM
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After seeing the effects of radical Islam on 9/11, me thinks Washington and the Gang would have though twice about someone coming over here to preach Wahabist teachings.
Oh boy X_x...
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  #17  
Old 29th December 2010, 01:20 AM
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I'm sure the Founders weren't fond of a lot of things. Doesn't mean that we should match our tastes and moral sensibilities to everything they were 'fond of.'
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  #18  
Old 29th December 2010, 08:31 AM
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Well, by all means, don't match them, Vandy.

Of course, just because they held the opinions they did based upon nothing more than Islam's own reading and representatives, as opposed to the conglomeration of misinformation and propaganda available today, well... I'm sure they were far less informed and more akin to idiots than the people of today.

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  #19  
Old 29th December 2010, 11:51 AM
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Muslim Americans constitute a growing population of 2.5 million, and it's good to hear America has always treated them with respect. Muslims have always been a fabric of American society.
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Old 29th December 2010, 11:59 AM
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Y'all should have a gander at the article which was excerpted in the OP - it's really marvelous.

Also, it will clear up some misconceptions about Islam that are clearly held by people posting in this very thread, such as the mistaken idea that Islam holds women to be second-class citizens.

Fair warning though - this is a Cracked.com article. The language therein may be disturbing to some.

5 Ridiculous Things You Probably Believe About Islam | Cracked.com
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