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14th May 2011, 02:01 AM
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quote: So now, according to Duhem and Jaki, what ideas are necessary to have (or, to be more precise generally, not have) in the intellectual climate of a civilization to keep science self-sustaining, instead of dying out after a few centuries of progress? First, a linear, potentially quantifiable conception of time that clearly distinguishes past, present, and future promotes a scientific view of nature and its cause-effect relationships is necessary for a scientific outlook. In the Judeo-Christian tradition, this idea comes from the act of God in creating the universe from nothing at some specific point of time in the past, and then time is seen as progressing through the present on to the future with the second coming and the day of judgment. The alternative view of time, the concept of the "Great Year," maintains centuries-long time cycles exist in which the future repeats the past exactly or almost exactly, making progress of any kind theoretically impossible. This idea of time breeds a sense of complacency ("we know it all already") and/or hopelessness, hindering the development of science in a given culture. Second, if science is to exist, explanations of natural phenomena must avoid a priori, pseudo-scientific "explanations" that really do not describe the causes of events, such as astrology. Third, science is hindered by the organismic view of nature. This idea conceives all of the universe as alive, as if it was one huge organism which goes through the above mentioned cyclical process from birth, to maturity, then death, to be born again. The tie to pantheism--believing EVERYTHING is God, a standard Hindu view--is obvious here. This outlook sees what we moderns consider inanimate (and non-divine) objects, like rocks, the planets, the stars, the oceans, and other natural objects to have wills of their own, or intelligence of their own. Fourth, science is hindered if the reality of the basic orderliness of the universe ("the external real world") is denied. Humans will not often investigate carefully what is considered not to really exist, or that which will be changed at whim by the God(s), or nature herself. Fifth, the heavens (outer space) must not be considered alive, or divine, if a scientific astronomy is to exist. Sixth, a balance between reason and faith is necessary, without the religious people totally rejecting science or natural laws, and without the philosophers/scientists totally rejecting the claims of religious truth. Seventh, man needs to be seen as fundamentally different from the rest of nature, as having a mind that makes him qualitatively different from the animals, etc., not just quantitatively different. The foundations for this view are laid in the Judeo-Christian world view in Genesis where man and woman were made in God's likeness and image, and were told they had dominion over the animals (Gen. 1:26-29). So long as all or most of false ideas in these areas are believed by a great majority of the intellectuals/"wise men" of a given culture, a self-sustaining science will not comes to exist in a given civilization, especially any true science of bodies moving in the external real world (i.e., physics, unlike math). | 
14th May 2011, 04:06 AM
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Reps: 128,278,070,739,798,352 (power: 128,278,070,739,815) | | Originally Posted by Suger is Sweet Was Christianity in fact necessary for the Scientific Revolution? Is it just a coincidence that almost all of the important scientists of the Scientific Revolution were Christian?
It was not exactly a coincidence. If you were not a Christian you would be killed, tortured, or ostracized (anathema). Here's sociologist Rodney Stark: "Recent historical research has debunked the idea of a "Dark Ages" after the "fall" of Rome. In fact, this was an era of profound and rapid technological progress, by the end of which Europe had surpassed the rest of the world. Moreover, the so-called "Scientific Revolution" of the sixteenth century was a result of developments begun by religious scholars starting in the eleventh century. In my own academic research I have asked why these religious scholastics were interested in science at all. Why did science develop in Europe at this time? Why did it not develop anywhere else? I find answers to those questions in unique features of Christian theology."
Of course no one but the clergy was taught to read. Stark: "Even in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, the leading scientific figures were overwhelmingly devout Christians who believed it their duty to comprehend God's handiwork."
If you weren't a "devout" Christian you were burned on pile of your own books, like Giordano Bruno, or forbidden to publish, like Teilhard de Chardin, or threatend and placed under house arrest, like Galileo. Or maybe you were just murdered by mobs incited by the clergy, like Hypatia. Stark: "My studies show that the "Enlightenment" was conceived initially as a propaganda ploy by militant atheists attempting to claim credit for the rise of science. The falsehood that science required the defeat of religion was proclaimed by self-appointed cheerleaders like Voltaire, Diderot, and Gibbon, who themselves played no part in the scientific enterprise--a pattern that continues today".
Mr. Stark is doing what he accuses others of doing: Rewriting history to suit his fancy. Stark: "I find that through the centuries (including right up to the present day), professional scientists have remained about as religious as the rest of the population--and far more religious than their academic colleagues in the arts and social sciences."
I have read statistics that contradict this. Stark also came up with a list of top scientific contributors during the Scientific Revolution. Of 52 top contributors 50 were Christian. Christians also founded the universities where many of these scientists worked.
And if they weren't Christians they wouldn't be allowed to work there.
Those who have read history know how much trust can be placed in the testimony of "Christians".
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15th May 2011, 07:54 PM
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Reps: 33,073,033,399,861,112 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Diane_Windsor Turing was not forced into an early grave. He knew what the laws were in Britain at that time and he willingly chose to break them. He couldn't handle the consequences of his actions and he so willingly chose the coward's way out. I firmly believe that everyone is responsible for his or her own actions.
It sickens me that 50 years ago my government was chemically castrating people for being gay. | 
18th May 2011, 12:30 AM
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Reps: 2,946,003,535,378,828,800 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Gracchus It was not exactly a coincidence. If you were not a Christian you would be killed, tortured, or ostracized (anathema).
That's missing the point. The great leaps in science (scientific revolution) happened in Christian countries, not Moslem, or Buddhist | 
18th May 2011, 05:58 AM
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Reps: 128,278,070,739,798,352 (power: 128,278,070,739,815) | | Originally Posted by Montalban That's missing the point. The great leaps in science (scientific revolution) happened in Christian countries, not Moslem, or Buddhist
Except the ones that happened in Europe before 317 CE or the ones that happened in Africa or Asia.
__________________ "A belief which leaves no place for doubt is not a belief; it is a superstition." - Jose Bergamin
"You can't trust an honest man." --- Anonymous
"He does not believe who does not live according to his belief." -- Thomas Fuller
"The fact that the author thinks slowly is not serious, but the fact that he publishes faster than he thinks is inexcusable." -- Wolfgang Pauli
"He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" -- Micah 6:8
"It is because we believe absurdities that we are able to commit atrocities." -- Voltaire "This isn't right. This isn't even wrong." -- Wolfgang Pauli "Je ne suis pas marxiste." -- Karl Marx "Faith is believing what you know ain't so."-- Mark Twain
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein | 
18th May 2011, 06:23 AM
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The enlightenment started not from Christianity but from some of the works of St. Aristotle which had been preserved by the Muslims.
One copy was left behind in Spain by the Moors, and made it's way (via a translator?) to Robert Grosseteste here in Oxford who was the first in the 'West' to grasp the basic meaning of it, and this basic understanding was continued by Roger Bacon and despite a clampdown by the Church on heresy and witches, eventually the Church was pushed aside and science and the enlightenment emerged triumphant (except in the USA).
Evidently behind the scenes there must have been something happening and there is some evidence that at one time the enlightenment mainly survived within the Jewish community. | 
18th May 2011, 06:33 AM
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Reps: 2,946,003,535,378,828,800 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Gracchus Except the ones that happened in Europe before 317 CE or the ones that happened in Africa or Asia.
No one denies that science has been developed in other parts of the world.
The context of the conversation was "The Scientific Revolution", so I guess a goal-shift counts as a retort? | 
18th May 2011, 06:36 AM
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Reps: 2,946,003,535,378,828,800 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by MorkandMindy The early advances came from China, India, Egypt and Greece
The enlightenment started not from Christianity but from some of the works of St. Aristotle which had been preserved by the Muslims.
That underscores the very point. Despite Islam holding this knowledge the 'scientific revolution' didn't happen there. Originally Posted by MorkandMindy One copy was left behind in Spain by the Moors, and made it's way (via a translator?) to Robert Grosseteste here in Oxford who was the first in the 'West' to grasp the basic meaning of it, and this basic understanding was continued by Roger Bacon and despite a clampdown by the Church on heresy and witches, eventually the Church was pushed aside and science and the enlightenment emerged triumphant (except in the USA).
One copy of what?
This knowledge of Aristotle wasn't lost to Europe. The east had the continuation of the Roman Empire until the 1450s. Then a great many Christians fleeing to the west helped kick-off the Renaissance | 
18th May 2011, 06:43 AM
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Reps: 48,527,679,962,910,000 (power: 48,527,679,962,921) | | | If Christians want to ignore the medieval church and say things are very different now etc. etc, and we aren't like them etc. etc. then there are several problems.
One is take the scientific contributions of Bible-Believing Christians now and stack them against the atheists and secular Jews - not impressive.
I remember as a Christian I was told that the evangelical Christian Stephen Gould was also a World class anthropologist and had no problem reconciling a belief in God with science. Also that his theory of punctuated equilibrium gave a scientific basis to species surviving Noah's flood. Now that the internet exists I find most of that was false, and wonder how many people have been taken in by such nonsense.
Another problem is with both the demographic and historical extent of Christianity.
On the historical aspect people are fond of claiming Christianity is humane, unaware that it was not until the arrival of humanism. The theology of Augustine and practices of the early church were very cruel but justified by Biblical teaching such as that it is better to enter heaven with a leg missing etc. than for the whole body to be thrown into eternal torment.
A God who applies torment, or to use the modern term - torture - is advocating a different type of religion from a person who aims, perhaps not always successfully, to reduce suffering which is the aim of Buddhism.
The nice enlightened image of Christianity requires eliminating most of the history and most of the present day demography as well. Who are left as the nice Christians? Mostly some Jesuits down in Central America. | 
18th May 2011, 06:51 AM
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Reps: 2,946,003,535,378,828,800 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by MorkandMindy If Christians want to ignore the medieval church and say things are very different now etc. etc, and we aren't like them etc. etc. then there are several problems.
Who's ignoring the Medieval Church? Originally Posted by MorkandMindy One is take the scientific contributions of Bible-Believing Christians now and stack them against the atheists and secular Jews - not impressive.
Do you have a comparison list? Originally Posted by MorkandMindy I remember as a Christian I was told that the evangelical Christian Stephen Gould was also a World class anthropologist and had no problem reconciling a belief in God with science. Also that his theory of punctuated equilibrium gave a scientific basis to species surviving Noah's flood. Now that the internet exists I find most of that was false, and wonder how many people have been taken in by such nonsense.
So what?
When I was taught biology I was told the Miller-Urey experiment had shown abiogensis, and it had not.
I was shown how evolution worked using what was even then the discredited Haecekel drawings.
If I were to reject evolution on the basis of bad teachers I would be mistaking one thing for another Originally Posted by MorkandMindy Another problem is with both the demographic and historical extent of Christianity.
What's the demographics got to do with anything? Originally Posted by MorkandMindy On the historical aspect people are fond of claiming Christianity is humane, unaware that it was not until the arrival of humanism. The theology of Augustine and practices of the early church were very cruel but justified by Biblical teaching such as that it is better to enter heaven with a leg missing etc. than for the whole body to be thrown into eternal torment.
That's simply false too. Starting with Jesus, and his lesson for universal love, we have throughout history Christians advocating humane treatment of others. Originally Posted by MorkandMindy A God who applies torment, or to use the modern term - torture - is advocating a different type of religion from a person who aims, perhaps not always successfully, to reduce suffering which is the aim of Buddhism.
Where's God apply torment? Originally Posted by MorkandMindy The nice enlightened image of Christianity requires eliminating most of the history and most of the present day demography as well. Who are left as the nice Christians? Mostly some Jesuits down in Central America.
I saw on the news a person with red hair committing a crime.
Is the fact he had red hair relevant to the criminal act?
To suggest so you would need to establish 'causal links'.
You've not done so regarding Christians behaving badly, and Christianity.
To look at it another way, the USA is a democracy. It's been involved in illegal wars, and once had slaves. If I were to say "Democracies are evil, because the USA (a democracy) has misbehaved" it would be to attack one thing, by showing another. |  | | | Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes | Linear Mode | | | |