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Old 21st December 2010, 11:55 PM
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Do Christians go through the Tribulation?

I've been confused recently. Do Christians go through the tribulation and then at the end of it ressercuted, or are Christians both dead and living taken up into heaven before the tribulation?

Answers with scripture quotations appreciated.

Thanks
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Old 22nd December 2010, 12:07 AM
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Yes, all who have "washed in the blood of the Lamb", ie blood-bought Christians, have endured the great tribulation. We are snatched up to the throne of God when we are resurrected and changed (given glorified bodies) before the Day of the Lord begins which includes the time of wrath.

Jesus specifically said when the tribulation began, when it ends, what event happens after it, and who rises up after it is cut short in Matthew 24:


15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (6th seal)

In Revelation, the church is seen standing in heaven in Rev 7, wearing their glorified bodies, praising God for their salvation, having just come out of great tribulation, before the Day of the Lord begins:

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.


The only group of people doing anything in the blood of the Lamb is the church.

Here is the church in Revelation 12, dwelling in heaven at the same moment in time with another key descriptor, it is at the moment when the devil is cast down before the antichrist arises during the time of wrath on the Day of the Lord:


10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


Here is a reference to the church, whom the antichrist blasphemes, while we are dwelling in heaven in Revelation 13:


5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.



Here is a reference to the church standing in heaven before mystery babylon is destroyed and before the mark is implemented:

Revelation 14


1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


It is the Day of the Lord, the time of wrath, that the church is not appointed to suffer and that includes the antichrist who is an instrument of God's wrath.

Last edited by Jensghost; 22nd December 2010 at 12:15 AM.
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Old 22nd December 2010, 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc15 View Post
I've been confused recently. Do Christians go through the tribulation and then at the end of it ressercuted, or are Christians both dead and living taken up into heaven before the tribulation?

Answers with scripture quotations appreciated.
Originally Posted by Marc15 View Post


Thanks


Marc, as I'm sure you already know, here in eschatology you're going to find two different responses to your question, with strong beliefs and opinions backing each one.

At Christs return, the restoration of Heaven and Earth into a New Creation will enter into completion.
Heaven and Earth will join together as one, an action that represents the culmination of Christs work on the cross and His resurrection in the tomb, and the work that the church has continued since His departure.

Originally Posted by Romans 8:18-27
18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21thati the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.



Originally Posted by Revelation 21:1
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.


Originally Posted by Isaiah 65:17
"Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.


Originally Posted by Isaiah 66:22
"As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure.

The dead will be resurrected upon Christs return into bodies that will be exactly like the body He rose from the dead in 2,000 years ago.



Originally Posted by Colossian 3:4
When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.


Originally Posted by 1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

We're never taken to heaven, when Scripture mentions being caught up in the clouds, it's referring to meeting Christ in the air at His return and coming back down to Earth with him as He finishes what was started at His resurrection. What Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4 is simply a repackaging of what he's already said in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Philippians 3:20-21



Originally Posted by 1 Corinthians 15:51-54
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”g


Originally Posted by Philippians 3:20-21
20But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
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Old 22nd December 2010, 02:23 AM
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Old 22nd December 2010, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc15 View Post
I've been confused recently. Do Christians go through the tribulation and then at the end of it ressercuted, or are Christians both dead and living taken up into heaven before the tribulation?

Answers with scripture quotations appreciated.

Thanks
Hi.....
many different opinions here....


Yes Christians go through the tribulation/time of the antiChrist.
this is evidenced many times....

we can start in Mar13


19For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. (the elect are sealed in Rev6)
21And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: (a Christian warning)
22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. (a Christian warning)
23But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


and 1Thes4 speaks of the same gathering...
to which there are believing people alive on earth to be gathered


13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2Thes2 likewise speaks of that time, and what has to happen first...
this is for you, as you said you were confused...
so listen up, ok?


1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

so, the falling away from faith as also explained in 1Tim4
has to happen first,
and the son of perdition must be revealed first (after he does all the things that we were just told about)
before Christ comes to gather us....

and later in the verse, we learn by Who and when the son of perdition is revealed..

or 1Cor15...that shows a gathering and a change of the believers on earth.


50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

let's move to the Revelation of Jesus Christ
Rev2

8And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev3

7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rev12

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

so as you can see the church is here against the beast

and as well as Rev12, there is more...

Christ defines candlesticks as churches in Rev1.

20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

He then defines the 7 individual candlesticks/churches in Rev2-3 as I have posted
2 of the 7 churches are not chastized at all by Christ,
and the same 2 churches actually share the same doctrine
Smyrna and Philadelphia

now, candlesticks was defined by God for us...as churches.
and candlesticks is only used one other time in all of Revelation,
so it MUST be relevant

it is in Rev11

3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


so as you can see,
the 2 candlesticks are part of the end time 2 witnesses
who are against the beast

and we already know that God defined candlesticks as churches for us


there is a great deception coming...
the church will be tried/tested...
the false Christ comes first (before Jesus)
to try to deceive/seduce the bride of Christ

that is why the symbolism is used in Rev13...lamb/worship/miracles


11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

there is actually a lot more...if ya want...
like how the sealed elect are standing on Mt Zion with Christ in Rev14...


1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

and how believers are called out of Babylon just before she falls...in Rev18

1And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

don't let anyone deceive you with the fly away doctrine...
pre trib / pre antiChrist rapture is jsut not biblical at all.

it is definitely post trib...
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Last edited by zeke37; 22nd December 2010 at 06:07 AM.
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Old 22nd December 2010, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Chilled Water View Post

Marc, as I'm sure you already know, here in eschatology you're going to find two different responses to your question, with strong beliefs and opinions backing each one.

At Christs return, the restoration of Heaven and Earth into a New Creation will enter into completion. Heaven and Earth will join together as one, an action that represents the culmination of Christs work on the cross and His resurrection in the tomb, and the work that the church has continued since His departure.
hi

some say this takes 1000 years...

The dead will be resurrected upon Christs return into bodies that will be exactly like the body He rose from the dead in 2,000 years ago.


Christ's Glorified body is described in Rev
and it is not the same as His body 2000 years ago...
the body that the earthly followers saw had not been to the Father yet...

We're never taken to heaven, when Scripture mentions being caught up in the clouds, it's referring to meeting Christ in the air at His return and coming back down to Earth with him as He finishes what was started at His resurrection. What Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4 is simply a repackaging of what he's already said in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Philippians 3:20-21
more accurately, we do not go "up" anywhere...at least it is not written...

in Greek, the word is more properly translated "seized"
and it is "together" with the returning dead
just like in Mar13...

"up" is just not written, but in errant translations...

clouds = the same cloud Paul spoke about in Heb12:1...
figurative for amassive amount of believers

air = the same pneuma that Paul spoke of in 1COr15,
(our mystery change into spirit bodies)

1Thes4 is a very mis-interpreted/misunderstood scripture set.
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Old 22nd December 2010, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc15 View Post
I've been confused recently.
Don't be. God is not the author of confusion (1Cor. 14:33).

Do Christians go through the tribulation
YES (Rev. 12:17, et al)

and then at the end of it ressercuted
You mean gathered to Christ (2Thes. 2), commonly referred to as the rapture? Yes, that happens after the tribulation (Matt. 24:31; Mark 13:27).
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Old 22nd December 2010, 01:56 PM
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Thank you all for the replies. They were all helpful.
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