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  #1  
Unread 14th December 2010, 11:48 AM
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a third of the angels fell?

I know people talk about "a third of the angels fell", and that comes from this verse, I think -

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

But couldn't that verse be along the lines of this one? -

Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.


In Rev. 12:4 it says the tail drew the third part of the stars and cast them to the earth - Why would the dragon cast his own angels to the earth?

It's written later in the chapter -

Rev 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, (8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. (9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


In those verses there was a war, and the dragon and his angels were cast out.
But in verse 4, the dragon's tail had cast out one third of the stars.

So, I have two questions - does the term "stars" actually mean "angels" in that chapter or are they two different things?
If the two terms are interchangeable, then why would the dragon cast out his own angels/stars?
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Bless the LORD, all his works in all places of his dominion: bless the LORD, O my soul. (Psa 103:22)

"Rav Judah said in Rav's name: In truth, that man, Channaniah the son of Chezkiah by name, is to be remembered for good; but for him, the book of Ezekiel would have been hidden, for its words contradicted the Torah. What did he do? Three hundred barrels of oil were taken up to him and he sat in an upper chamber and reconciled them." Tractate Shabbat 13b.
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  #2  
Unread 14th December 2010, 11:50 AM
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Reminds me of the Book of Enoch. He talks about the connections between angels and stars..
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  #3  
Unread 14th December 2010, 01:56 PM
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The word "star-s" is often used as a parable to refer to man or men.

Numbers 24:17
“I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come out of Jacob; a scepter will rise out of Israel. He will crush the foreheads of Moab, the skulls of all the people of Sheth.
Stars:
BibleGateway.com - Keyword[bless and do not curse]Search: \"stars\"
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  #4  
Unread 14th December 2010, 02:02 PM
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There is no such thing as "angel-s." The correct translation into English is "messenger-s."
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  #5  
Unread 14th December 2010, 02:07 PM
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Satan rebelled and was cast out of heaven.

Is 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

Yeshua said Luke 10:18 I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven,

and in the book of the Revelation Satan is seen as Rev 9:1 ..a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth.

It shouldn't be too hard of a stretch to put two and two together and agree that the stars=fallen angels in the verses you used. Especially when the Bible itself makes the connection...

Rev 12:9 the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him
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  #6  
Unread 14th December 2010, 02:09 PM
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Stop trying to read a digital book with anolog eyes...

The book is not a linear book. Such as Rev 12 is not a chronological account. As my wife likes to accuse me of, the writer seems to be reiterating. Verses 1- 6 appear to outline verses 7-17.

The reference in verse 4 refers to how the angels followed the apostasy of the dragon. Since they followed the dragon (tail) they were cast out of heaven, as described more (again) in verse 9.

I believe its two ways of looking at (describing) the same thing. Yes, angels are referred to as stars of heaven. Yes, a third of them were cast out because of following the dragon (Satan). Yes, they are interchangeable in this account. No, you can’t read this as though it was a chronological account. If you did you would see the angels cast down twice...which is what I believe you are stumbling with. You would also see the woman first in heaven (verse 1), then after the dragon is cast to earth he chases the woman (verse 13). If the woman was in heaven, how did the dragon chase her 'after' he was cast down to earth.

To me, God tends to communicate to us polyphonically. Um, I mean prophetically. ;P He shows you the feet then you see how the body stands. Though, some just stand there staring at the feet in ignorance of the body attached to it. They freek out when a hand reaches down and touches them, cause they can't focus on the body. Just the feet.

This account is a very intricate word painting that if you follow in chronological order you will get tripped up. Stand back and look at the whole painting, stop focusing on the order the strokes were layed.

HTH
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  #7  
Unread 14th December 2010, 02:17 PM
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This world is also called "Heaven."
And God called the firmament heaven.


Genesis 1:6
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9. And God said, Let the waters under the Heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.


Luke 17:21
nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is among you."
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  #8  
Unread 14th December 2010, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Shimshon View Post
The book is not a linear book. Such as Rev 12 is not a chronological account. As my wife likes to accuse me of, the writer seems to be reiterating. Verses 1- 6 appear to outline verses 7-17.

The reference in verse 4 refers to how the angels followed the apostasy of the dragon. Since they followed the dragon (tail) they were cast out of heaven, as described more (again) in verse 9.

I believe its two ways of looking at (describing) the same thing. Yes, angels are referred to as stars of heaven. Yes, a third of them were cast out because of following the dragon (Satan). Yes, they are interchangeable in this account. No, you can’t read this as though it was a chronological account. If you did you would see the angels cast down twice...which is what I believe you are stumbling with. You would also see the woman first in heaven (verse 1), then after the dragon is cast to earth he chases the woman (verse 13). If the woman was in heaven, how did the dragon chase her 'after' he was cast down to earth.

To me, God tends to communicate to us polyphonically. Um, I mean prophetically. ;P He shows you the feet then you see how the body stands. Though, some just stand there staring at the feet in ignorance of the body attached to it. They freek out when a hand reaches down and touches them, cause they can't focus on the body. Just the feet.

This account is a very intricate word painting that if you follow in chronological order you will get tripped up. Stand back and look at the whole painting, stop focusing on the order the strokes were layed.

HTH
good to see you again..
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  #9  
Unread 14th December 2010, 02:35 PM
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Rev 12:9 the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent / snake called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the [earth / ground], and his [angels / messengers] with him.
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Unread 14th December 2010, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by chunkofcoal View Post
I know people talk about "a third of the angels fell", and that comes from this verse, I think -

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

But couldn't that verse be along the lines of this one? -

Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.


In Rev. 12:4 it says the tail drew the third part of the stars and cast them to the earth - Why would the dragon cast his own angels to the earth?

It's written later in the chapter -

Rev 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, (8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. (9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


In those verses there was a war, and the dragon and his angels were cast out.
But in verse 4, the dragon's tail had cast out one third of the stars.

So, I have two questions - does the term "stars" actually mean "angels" in that chapter or are they two different things?
If the two terms are interchangeable, then why would the dragon cast out his own angels/stars?

I think the keyword to concentrate on here is, 'tail'. Various translations translate it as drew, swept away, etc.

I think it should be more correct to translate it as 'dragged'. As he is the head, and his sins against G-d lead the others into sinning, thus they were dragged away on the 'tail' of his sins and cast out of heaven with him.
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