Paul, ON Marriage

AudioArtist · #11 23rd November 2010, 07:04 AM

I'd like to ask a question, because these verses have bothered me as a young man currently engaged...

Do these verses mean it is wrong to marry if you don't particularly 'burn'? To speak frankly - since my encounter with God a while ago and through remaining in prayer and worship since then, sexual desire has honestly been far from my thoughts. Of course I still struggle in many areas and am still far from fully sanctified - but the purity God gives is astounding. I understand biological make up and other factors have a role to play - but I have found that what Paul says about 'living by the Spirit' is practically true, and sexual desire has so severely lost its power that I am wondering whether it is wrong to marry in light of what Paul says here!

Faulty · #12 23rd November 2010, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by AudioArtist

I'd like to ask a question, because these verses have bothered me as a young man currently engaged...

Do these verses mean it is wrong to marry if you don't particularly 'burn'? To speak frankly - since my encounter with God a while ago and through remaining in prayer and worship since then, sexual desire has honestly been far from my thoughts. Of course I still struggle in many areas and am still far from fully sanctified - but the purity God gives is astounding. I understand biological make up and other factors have a role to play - but I have found that what Paul says about 'living by the Spirit' is practically true, and sexual desire has so severely lost its power that I am wondering whether it is wrong to marry in light of what Paul says here!

Here's the reasoning Paul wishes them to remain unmarried if possible:

1 Cor 7:32-34
"I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord. But the married man is anxious about worldly things, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided."

Paul actually expands a bit on the verses Franky questions.

1 Cor 7:36
"If anyone thinks that he is not behaving properly toward his betrothed, if his passions are strong, and it has to be, let him do as he wishes: let them marry—it is no sin."

Let's not forget, these are responses to very particular questions the church in Corinth asked Paul. The entire section starts with this question in verse 1, "Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: "It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman." and everything that follows is an answer to that very question of "sexual relations" between a man and a woman.

Verse 2 goes on to state, "But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband", which is the setup for verses 7-9 in question. This isn't something Paul wrote on a whim.

AudioArtist · #13 23rd November 2010, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by Faulty

Here's the reasoning Paul wishes them to remain unmarried if possible:

1 Cor 7:32-34
"I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord. But the married man is anxious about worldly things, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided."

Paul actually expands a bit on the verses Franky questions.

1 Cor 7:36
"If anyone thinks that he is not behaving properly toward his betrothed, if his passions are strong, and it has to be, let him do as he wishes: let them marry—it is no sin."

Let's not forget, these are responses to very particular questions the church in Corinth asked Paul. The entire section starts with this question in verse 1, "Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: "It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman." and everything that follows is an answer to that very question of "sexual relations" between a man and a woman.

Verse 2 goes on to state, "But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband", which is the setup for verses 7-9 in question. This isn't something Paul wrote on a whim.

Thank you for your post. It is also good to be reminded that these were answers to specific questions. I do not want to disobey Scripture, but neither do I want to make big decisions based on a misunderstanding of the intended breadth of certain passages. I need to keep in mind the beautiful imagery the Spirit inspired Paul with in terms of a marriage being like Christ's relationship to His Church, for example.

franky67 · #14 23rd November 2010, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by AudioArtist

Thank you for your post. It is also good to be reminded that these were answers to specific questions. I do not want to disobey Scripture, but neither do I want to make big decisions based on a misunderstanding of the intended breadth of certain passages. I need to keep in mind the beautiful imagery the Spirit inspired Paul with in terms of a marriage being like Christ's relationship to His Church, for example.

I agree, this, and the response of marjahel, are very insightful, and I thank you both.

And Jim, you and I both know that there are many, many verses that can be taken at least two ways, and some even more different ways, hence, so many denominations in existence.

No one will deny that those verses are the root of demanding celibacy for priests in the church.

It's wrong, it's unnatural, we're not created by God that way, and it causes some to sin.

You lecture on taking every word as inspired, I agree the writers were inspired, yet I must be open to the Holy Spirit in responding to some scriptures.

The subject of women teaching in the church may be another one of those situations where Paul is dealing with a specific local situation, but I must not rigidly say I cannot abide a women to teach a man, or take responsible positions in the church.

Just like God has never taught in His word that slavery is wrong, He only taught not to mistreat others, including slaves. I believe this and some of the things Paul wrote, reflect the traditions of the times in bible days.

So why didn't God teach against slavery ? It's wrong isn't it?

We so need the Holy Spirit to enlighten us.

LinkH · #15 23rd November 2010, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by franky67

Jesus stated facts in Matthew 19:11,12, He did not say it was the will of God.

And burning in the context given meant sexual desire.

Everything the Creator created, He said was good.

Paul does not disagree that marriage is good. He just argues that celibacy is better. He considers both a gift. Every man has his gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that, he says.

There is no Law in the Old Testament that says that every man or woman must marry.

LinkH · #16 23rd November 2010, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by franky67

So why didn't God teach against slavery ? It's wrong isn't it?

Being a slave is not a sin. Having slaves is not a sin. Paul wrote a letter to a Christian slave-owner.

Slavery was a bit different in both Hebrew and Greek culture than it was in the American south. The idea that slavery is a sin is something from American culture, not something revealed from God in the Bible.

Be that as it may, I am glad we live in a country where slavery is illegal, for the most part (except for the military, prisons, and maybe primary and secondary schools).

franky67 · #17 23rd November 2010, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by LinkH

Being a slave is not a sin. Having slaves is not a sin. Paul wrote a letter to a Christian slave-owner.

Slavery was a bit different in both Hebrew and Greek culture than it was in the American south. The idea that slavery is a sin is something from American culture, not something revealed from God in the Bible.

Be that as it may, I am glad we live in a country where slavery is illegal, for the most part (except for the military, prisons, and maybe primary and secondary schools).

Got to be kidding, no man has the right to own another human being, and the military and schools aren't examples of slavery.

You live in a country where slavery is illegal because others fought and died in the military to make it that way.

Owning another human being is a sin under God period.

imperfectchristian · #18 23rd November 2010, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by franky67

First I want to make it very clear, I do not post this to bash the apostle Paul, he was a human being just like us, he missed the mark just like we do. IMHO, he indicated many times in the epistles that he was only human.

If any doctrine does not agree with the doctrine of Christ, we should defer to the red letters.

Here is what Paul taught on the subject of marriage.

1 Corinthians 7:7-9
"Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am, however each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that, but I say to the unmarried and the widows, that it is good for them if they remain even as I.
But if they do not have self control, then it is better to marry than to burn."

Marriage, ordained by God Himself, is NOT a remedy for lust.

And those words quoted above, are responsible for a multitude of sins.

When I first read the Bible seriously as a teen I concentrated pretty heavily on this passage. Could I be more spiritual if I were single. In one place it does say where married people can't devote themselves to the work of God like single people because having a family takes up a lot of time and additional expense.

There was one point I thought I might actually want to remain single. I was like Audio Artist describes...full of God and didn't give much of any thought to sex. That all changed when I started spending time around the opposite sex though.

I think people get too intense about these matters. I know I did. I wanted desperately to become closer to what God wanted me to be and it really messed me up in my thinking.

First off...God made everything good originally and sex is a great and wonderful thing meant to be enjoyed...how do I know this? because God created it that way. Give Song of Solomon a whirl and then tell me God did not create sex, passion and intimacy to be enjoyed.

Sex begins losing its magic when we abuse the intent for which God created it. We are relational creatures and God created sex to be enjoyed within a life long committed relationship. (AKA marriage)

Theologians believe Paul was likely a widow having probably been married earlier in life. As with many widows, (more women than men) if they have loved deeply and lost they tend to throw themselves into work. Paul's work was being a Jew and he excelled at it right up until His conversion. Then his life went in overload. He was so completely consumed with the message of the love of God that it became his whole life. He didn't even care if he died, he welcomed persecution and death...not because he was some staunch disciplinarian that bravely served God in his own right, but because He was consumed with God's love and it overflowed in his life where sharing it became all cared about.

That is the Paul I see.

Now let's examine this letter in light of this...(my comments in green)

"Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am,

Uh yeah...of course he does...he wants everyone to know the love of God the way He does...as wonderful as marriage is...it still doesn't compare to God's love. In short...marriage is great...having more time to be consumed with the knowledge of God's love and share it with others...even better.

however each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that, but I say to the unmarried and the widows, that it is good for them if they remain even as I.

It's good because you are not distracted by everyday living like you are in a marriage...it gives you more time to give attention totally to God and His love for you and for the world.

But if they do not have self control, then it is better to marry than to burn."

Ok...let me be blunt here...I love sex (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with me saying that) I love intimacy, I love closness...you get the picture...I love everything about the passion and intimacy that goes on between a man and a woman who are in love with each other....I'm very much a romantic.

Here is the deal...I am 32 right now and while I have noticed a decrease in my desire level in the past 5 years I can tell you, that unless I was forced to like say...a military deployment...I could not go without sexual intimacy for a long period of time because my sex drive is rather high. I'm exactly the kind of guy Paul is talking about here and I have absolutely no problem in saying so...its who I am and thank God this Scripture is in here or else someone might get some crazy gnostic notion that sex is bad or should be refrained from or something.

I can say from first hand experience that a healthy sex life in a marriage will keep a guy from being overtaken by his own sexual desires and sleeping with people he is not married to.

For whatever its worth, that is my reality.

Simon_Templar · #19 23rd November 2010, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by Howard Cneal

Most of St. Paul's sayings in 1 Cor. 7 were merely his OPINION - as he even pointed out. To take one man's OPINION and put it on the same level as God's view Himself, I think that's foolish and dangerous. I wonder, were St. Paul still with us, would he be too keen on the fact that people have taken some of his OPINIONS and placed them on the same level as the Word of God? And would he be impressed with people arguing over what *he* said, rather than spreading the simple truth of the Gospel? Somehow, we doubt the latter.

H. Cneal

First off, I'll take the opinion of a guy chosen directly by Jesus, and cought up to heaven to be taught, over some guy on the internet who thinks he knows better.
For that matter I'd take it over anyone living today.

Second, even if it is only Paul's opinion, it has been backed up by the authority of the Church for 2000's years.

Third, I see nothing at all wrong with what Paul said. I think its wise, and the criticism of it which is offered here has no real basis in scripture, or reason.

Fourth, and last, the biggest problem in the charismatic movement, is the apparently dominant idea that people can simply dismiss scripture in favor of their own thoughts and feelings. This became an issue numerous times in my old church, and in other local charismatic churches.
Many charismatics, most that I have met and know, style themselves as bible believers, sola scriptura, biblical literalists. The fact is, however, when most come up against a scripture they don't like, or that disagrees with what they feel or believe, its the scripture that goes away and is dismissed.

suddenly the bible is relegated to "traditions of men" while that individual's feeling is the word of God.

Simon_Templar · #20 23rd November 2010, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by AudioArtist

I'd like to ask a question, because these verses have bothered me as a young man currently engaged...

Do these verses mean it is wrong to marry if you don't particularly 'burn'? To speak frankly - since my encounter with God a while ago and through remaining in prayer and worship since then, sexual desire has honestly been far from my thoughts. Of course I still struggle in many areas and am still far from fully sanctified - but the purity God gives is astounding. I understand biological make up and other factors have a role to play - but I have found that what Paul says about 'living by the Spirit' is practically true, and sexual desire has so severely lost its power that I am wondering whether it is wrong to marry in light of what Paul says here!

No. Paul is not in the least saying that it is wrong to marry unless you HAVE to.

What Paul is talking about is a spiritual gifting. He, and many others down through history, and yet still today, had the gift of celibacy.

Jesus spoke of this also. When speaking to the Apostles about divorce, they were surprised at how strict his teaching was, and they said "if this is true its better not to marry." Jesus replied with this...

"Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it."

His point being, there are some people who are gifted with celibacy for the purpose of the Kingdom. Most people are not. It is a mistake to try and be celibate if you are not gifted for it.

Also, this does NOT mean only if you can't resist sex. Marriage isn't all about sex. It is a sacramental covenant in which two people are joined spiritually and physically. Many people need the emotional and spiritual side as much or more than they need the physical side.

In the end, its all about what God calls you to. If you have a strong desire to marry, it is likely that you are called to marriage. If you do feel that you might be called to celibacy then it is something you should pray about, but God will make it clear. In our culture, engagement isn't what it used to be... but being somewhat old fashioned, if I were you, I'd view that as a pledge of honor and a commitment not easily cast aside.

As such, it'd take a lighting bolt of obviousness to convince me I was called to celibacy.

Celibacy is a sacrifice, not just because you give up sex, but also because you give up family. Its a big sacrifice.
And as such it has always been viewed with a special kind of respect in the Church.

However, Paul's teaching should never be misconstrued as denegrating marriage. Marriage is Holy. It is Sacred. It is just as much a God calling as Celibacy.

When Paul says "its better to marry than to burn" he is not at all saying that marriage should be viewed as a last ditch effort to avoid falling to lust.
Remember, Paul started the verse saying "I wish that all were even as I am"... he isn't just talking about being single and celibate... he is talking about being gifted with celibacy for the kingdom.

Thus when he talks about not being able to control yourself, he doesn't mean that everyone who can possibly force themselves to abstain from sex should remain unmarried. On the contrary, he is saying that those who do not have the gifting of celibacy, should marry.

Also, it should be recognized that in mentioning widows, he is referring largely to women who, after their husband's died, had devoted themselves to serving the Church. He also talks about this with Timothy I believe. This is basically the origin of what we would today call nuns. He tells specifically tells Timothy not to (or rarely) to accept young widows into this role because the chance is too great that they will eventually want to marry again and thus break their vows (indicating that they were required to take a vow of celibacy when they entered the service of the Church).