I must admit to being dismayed when I read about the history of the various Patriarchates and how their leaders often acted in very unchristlike manners in order to secure their power and influence. Antioch against Alexandria, Constantinople vs Rome, etc.. It seems like many Patriarchates were always squabbling over power and trying to get ahead of the others. Even many otherwise holy and God fearing people seem to fall into that trap. What every happend to the first will be last?
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"The Devil cunningly induces us- instead of arousing us against himself-to notice our neighbors' sins, to make us spiteful and angry with others, and to awaken our contempt twoard them, thus keeping us in enmity with them, and with the Lord God himself."
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Irenaes says the Chair is in Rome.
SHOW me where it says Antioch.
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Matthew Chapter 7
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." Urgent Pray for your departed loved ones ~ even if you do not believe in purgatory - what harm can come from praying for them?
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. But I say, walk by the Spirit and you shall not fulfil the To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. of the flesh. For the flesh To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. against the To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. , and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other: that you may not do the things that you would.
All Bishops sit on the "chair of Peter". The Patriarchate of Rome often played an important leadership role in the Church and had certain privileges in connection with being the capital of the Empire and having been evangelized by St Peter and St Paul.
Show me where it says all the Bishops sit on the Chair of Peter.
I want evidence of the claims.
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Matthew Chapter 7
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." Urgent Pray for your departed loved ones ~ even if you do not believe in purgatory - what harm can come from praying for them?
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. But I say, walk by the Spirit and you shall not fulfil the To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. of the flesh. For the flesh To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. against the To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. , and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other: that you may not do the things that you would.
I'd be very interested in hearing both sides to this issue, however I would like to point out that the way the question is framed is unfair since it is asking someone to prove a negative, which can't always be done conclusively or logically.
It might get the dialogue moving more if you were to start by explaining why you believe the Bishop of Rome holds a unique position of teaching authority for the universal Church, and then those from the Eastern churches who care to could explain their objections to those beliefs.
Not to nitpick, but it is possible to prove a negative logically and conclusively.
It is impossible to prove a universal negative. Key difference.
It is, however, always more difficult to 'have the burden of proof'. The statement WA made puts the burden of proof on the EO, thus it does make things more difficult for them from the start.
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Matthew Chapter 7
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." Urgent Pray for your departed loved ones ~ even if you do not believe in purgatory - what harm can come from praying for them?
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. But I say, walk by the Spirit and you shall not fulfil the To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. of the flesh. For the flesh To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. against the To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. , and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other: that you may not do the things that you would.
"The Devil cunningly induces us- instead of arousing us against himself-to notice our neighbors' sins, to make us spiteful and angry with others, and to awaken our contempt twoard them, thus keeping us in enmity with them, and with the Lord God himself."
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Indeed - there is BUT One chair of Peter, and it was stated to be in Rome.
Show me it is anywhere else.
I'll show you mine, you show me yours.
That's all i am asking.
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Matthew Chapter 7
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." Urgent Pray for your departed loved ones ~ even if you do not believe in purgatory - what harm can come from praying for them?
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. But I say, walk by the Spirit and you shall not fulfil the To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. of the flesh. For the flesh To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. against the To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. , and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other: that you may not do the things that you would.
St Cyprian of Carthage seemed to consider himself a successor to Peter and a possessor of the chair of Peter as Bishop of Carthage.
The early Christian concept, best expressed in the third century by Cyprian of Carthage, according to which the ‘see of Peter’ belongs, in each local church, to the bishop, remains the longstanding and obvious pattern for the Byzantines. Gregory of Nyssa, for example, can write that Jesus ‘through Peter gave to the bishops the keys of heavenly honors.’ Pseudo–Dionysius when he mentions the ‘hierarchs’—i.e., the bishops of the early Church—refers immediately to the image of Peter....Peter succession is seen wherever the right faith is preserved, and, as such, it cannot be localized geographically or monopolized by a single church or individual (John Meyendorff, Byzantine Theology (New York: Fordham University, 1974), p. 98).
Cyprian’s view of Peter’s ‘chair’ (cathedri Petri) was that it belonged not only to the bishop of Rome but to every bishop within each community. Thus Cyprian used not the argument of Roman primacy but that of his own authority as ‘successor of Peter’ in Carthage...For Cyprian, the ‘chair of Peter’, was a sacramental concept, necessarily present in each local church: Peter was the example and model of each local bishop, who, within his community, presides over the Eucharist and possesses ‘the power of the keys’ to remit sins. And since the model is unique, unique also is the episcopate (episcopatus unus est) shared, in equal fullness (in solidum) by all bishops (John Meyendorff, Imperial Unity and Christian Divisions (Crestwood: St. Vladimir’s, 1989), pp. 61, 152).
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"The Devil cunningly induces us- instead of arousing us against himself-to notice our neighbors' sins, to make us spiteful and angry with others, and to awaken our contempt twoard them, thus keeping us in enmity with them, and with the Lord God himself."
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Last edited by Christos Anesti; 30th November 2010 at 12:40 PM.
"Our Lord whose precepts and warnings we ought to observe, determining the honour of a Bishop and the ordering of His own Church, speaks in the Gospel and says to Peter, I say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build My Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven. Thence the ordination of Bishops, and the ordering of the Church, runs down along the course of time and line of succession, so that the Church is settled upon her Bishops; and every act of the Church is regulated by these same Prelates (A Library of the Fathers of the Holy Catholic Church (Oxford: Parker, 1844), The Epistles of S. Cyprian, Ep. 33.1).
This page has some good "stuff" regarding the Church Fathers, Peter , and Rome:
For some ask, Since Linus and Cletus were bishops in the city of Rome before this Clement, how could Clement himself, writing to James, say that the chair of teaching was handed over to him by Peter?
Now of this we have heard this explanation, that Linus and Cletus were indeed bishops in the city of Rome before Clement, but during the lifetime of Peter: that is, that they undertook the care of the episcopate, and that he fulfilled the office of apostleship; as is found also to have been the case at Cæsarea, where, when he himself was present, he yet had Zacchæus, ordained by himself, as bishop. And in this way both statements will appear to be true, both that these bishops are reckoned before Clement, and yet that Clement received the teacher's seat on the death of Peter. But now let us see how Clement, writing to James the Lord's brother, begins his narrative.
St. Irenæus (180-200) states the theory and practice of doctrinal unity as follows:
With this Church [of Rome] because of its more powerful principality, every Church must agree, that is the faithful everywhere, in this [i.e. in communion with the Roman Church] the tradition of the Apostles has ever been preserved by those on every side. (Adv. Haereses, III)
(In Eusebius' Eccl. Hist., v. 28.)
For they say that all those of the first age, and the apostles themselves, both received and taught those things which these men now maintain; and that the truth of Gospel preaching was preserved until the times of Victor, who was the thirteenth bishop in Rome from Peter, and that from his successor Zephyrinus the truth was falsified. And perhaps what they allege might be credible, did not the Holy Scriptures, in the first place, contradict them. And then, besides, there are writings of certain brethren older than the times of Victor, which they wrote against the heathen in defence of the truth, and against the heresies of their time: I mean Justin and Miltiades, and Tatian and Clement, and many others, in all which divinity is ascribed to Christ. For who is ignorant of the books of Irenaeus and Melito, and the rest, which declare Christ to be God and man? All the psalms, too, and hymns of brethren, which have been written from the beginning by the faithful, celebrate Christ the Word of God, ascribing divinity to Him. Since the doctrine of the Church, then, has been proclaimed so many years ago, how is it possible that men have preached, up to the time of Victor, in the manner asserted by these? And how are they not ashamed to utter these calumnies against Victor, knowing well that Victor excommunicated Theodotus the tanner, the leader and father of this God-denying apostasy, who first affirmed that Christ was a mere man? For if, as they allege, Victor entertained the very opinions which their blasphemy teaches, how should he have cast off Theodotus, the author of this heresy?
The (third-century) poem, "Adversus Marcionem", says (P.L., II, 1099):
Hâc cathedrâ, Petrus quâ sederat ipse, locatum
Maxima Roma Linum primum considere iussit.
(On this chair, where Peter himself had sat,
great Rome first placed Linus and bade him sit.)
Further, St. Cyprian, writing about 250, during the vacancy of the chair after the death of Pope St. Fabian, describes it as follows: "Cum locus Fabiani, id est locus Petri et gradus cathedræ sacerdotalis vacaret" (when the place of Fabian, i.e. the place of Peter and the step of the sacerdotal chair were vacant). Still earlier, about 200, Tertullian writes, in his "De præscriptione bæreticorum": "Percurre ecclesias apostolicas, apud quas ipsæ adhuc cathedræ apostolorum suis locis præsident. Si Italiæ adjaces habes Romam"
(Visit the Apostolic churches in (among) which the very chairs of the Apostles still preside in their places. If you are near Italy, there is Rome).
From the earliest times the Church at Rome celebrated on 18 January the memory of the day when the Apostle held his first service with the faithful of the Eternal City. According to Duchesne and de Rossi, the "Martyrologium Hieronymianum" (Weissenburg manuscript) reads as follows: "XV KL. FEBO. Dedicatio cathedræ sci petri apostoli qua primo Rome petrus apostolus sedit" (fifteenth day before the calends of February, the dedication of the Chair of St. Peter the Apostle in which Peter the Apostle first sat at Rome). The Epternach manuscript (Codex Epternacensis) of the same work, says briefly: "cath. petri in roma" (the Chair of Peter in Rome).
5. The Lord cries aloud, saying, Hearken not unto the words of the false prophets, for the visions of their own hearts deceive them. They speak, but not out of the mouth of the Lord. They say to them that despise the word of the Lord, You shall have peace. Jeremiah 23:16-17 They are now offering peace who have not peace themselves. They are promising to bring back and recall the lapsed into the Church, who themselves have departed from the Church. There is one God, and Christ is one, and there is one Church, and one chair founded upon the rock by the word of the Lord. Another altar cannot be constituted nor a new priesthood be made, except the one altar and the one priesthood. Whosoever gathers elsewhere, scatters. Whatsoever is appointed by humanmadness, so that the divine disposition is violated, is adulterous, is impious, is sacrilegious. Depart far from the contagion of men of this kind. and flee from their words, avoiding them as a cancer and a plague, as the Lord warns you and says, They are blind leaders of the blind. But if the blind lead the blind, they shall both fall into the ditch.Matthew 15:14 They intercept your prayers, which you pour forth with us to God day and night, to appease Him with a righteous satisfaction. They intercept your tears with which you wash away the guilt of the sin you have committed; they intercept the peace which you truly and faithfully ask from the mercy of the Lord; and they do not know that it is written, And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, that has spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, shall be put to death. Deuteronomy 13:5 Let no one, beloved brethren, make you to err from the ways of the Lord; let no one snatch you, Christians, from the Gospel of Christ; let no one take sons of the Churchaway from the Church; let them perish alone for themselves who have wished to perish; let them remain outside the Church alone who have departed from the Church; let them anoia be without bishops who have rebelled against bishops; let them alone undergo the penalties of their conspiracies who formerly, according to your votes, and now according to God's judgment, have deserved to undergo the sentence of their own conspiracy and malignity.
Chapter IV. An Adjuration Concerning the Receivers of the Book
1. Therefore James, having read the epistle, sent for the elders; and having read it to them, said: Our Peter has strictly and becomingly charged us concerning the establishing of the truth, that we should not communicate the books of his preachings, which have been sent to us, to any one at random, but to one who is good and religious, and who wishes to teach, and who is circumcised, and faithful. And these are not all to be committed to him at once; that, if he be found injudicious in the first, the others may not be entrusted to him. Wherefore let him be proved not less than six years. And then according to the initiation of Moses, he that is to deliver the books should bring him to a river or a fountain, which is living water, where the regeneration of the righteous takes place, and should make him, not swear—for that is not lawful—but to stand by the water and adjure, as we ourselves, when we were re-generated, were made to do for the sake of not sinning.
2. And let him say: 'I take to witness heaven, earth, water, in which all things are comprehended, and in addition to all these, that air also which pervades all things, and without which I cannot breathe, that I shall always be obedient to him who gives me the books of the preachings; and those same books which he may give me, I shall not communicate to any one in any way, either by writing them, or giving them in writing, or giving them to a writer, either myself or by another, or through any other initiation, or trick, or method, or by keeping them carelessly, or placing them before any one, or granting him permission to see them, or in any way or manner whatsoever communicating them to another; unless I shall ascertain one to be worthy, as I myself have been judged, or even more so, and that after a probation of not less than six years; but to one who is religious and good, chosen to teach, as I have received them, so I will commit them, doing these things also according to the will of my bishop.
But otherwise, though he were my son or my brother, or my friend, or otherwise in any way pertaining to me by kindred, if he be unworthy, that I will not vouchsafe the favour to him, as is not meet; and I shall neither be terrified by plot nor mollified by gifts. But if even it should ever seem to me that the books of the preachings given to me are not true, I shall not so communicate them, but shall give them back. And when I go abroad, I shall carry them with me, whatever of them I happen to possess. But if I be not minded to carry them about with me, I shall not suffer them to be in my house, but shall deposit them with my bishop, having the same faith, and setting out from the same persons as myself. But if it befall me to be sick, and in expectation of death, and if I be childless, I shall act in the same manner. But if I die having a son who is not worthy, or not yet capable, I shall act in the same manner. For I shall deposit them with my bishop, in order that if my son, when he grows up, be worthy of the trust, he may give them to him as his father's bequest, according to the terms of this engagement
The original passage, as found in most manuscripts and as printed in Hartel's edition, runs thus:
If any will consider this, there is no need of a long treatise and of arguments. 'The Lord saith to Peter: 'I say unto thee that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it; to thee I will give the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and what thou shalt have bound on earth shall be bound in heaven, and what thou shalt have loosed shall be loosed in heaven.' Upon one He builds His Church, and though to all His Apostles after His resurrection He gives an equal power and says: 'As My Father hath sent Me, even so send I you: Receive the Holy Ghost, whosesoever sins you shall have remitted they shall be remitted unto them, and whosesoever sins you shall have retained they shall be retained', yet that He might make unity manifest, He disposed the origin of that unity beginning from one. The other Apostles were indeed what Peter was, endowed with a like fellowship both of honour and of power, but the commencement proceeds from one, that the Church may be shown to be one. This one Church the Holy Ghost in the person of the Lord designates in the Canticle of Canticles, and says, One is My Dove, My perfect one, one is she to her mother, one to her that bare her. He that holds not this unity of the Church, does he believe that he holds the Faith? He who strives against and resists the Church, is he confident that he is in the Church?
The substituted passage is as follows:
. . . bound in heaven. Upon one He builds His Church, and to the same He says after His resurrection, 'feed My sheep'.And though to all His Apostles yet did He set up one chair He gave an equal power , and disposed the origin and manner of unity by his authority. The other Apostles were indeed what Peter was,but the primacy is given to Peter, and the Churchand the chair is shown to be one.And all are pastors, but the flock is shown to be one, which is fed by all the Apostles with one mind and heart. He that holds not this unity of the Church, does he think that he holds the faith? He who deserts the chair of Peter, upon whom the Church is founded, is he confident that he is in the Church?
These alternative versions are given one after the other in the chief family of manuscripts which contains them, while in some other families the two have been partially or wholly combined into one.
We may accept the statement of the Liberian catalogue that he reigned two years, three months, and ten days, for Lipsius, Lightfoot, and Harnack have shown that this list is a first-rate authority for this date. His predecessor, Fabian, was put to death by Decius, 20 January, 250. About the beginning of March, 251 the persecution slackened, owing to the absence of the emperor, against whom two rivals had arisen. It was possible to assemble sixteen bishops at Rome, and Cornelius was elected though against his will (Cyprian, Ep. lv, 24), "by the judgment of God and of Christ, by the testimony of almost all the clergy, by the vote of the people then present, by the consent of aged priests and of good men, at a time when no one had been made before him, when the place of Fabian, that is the place of Peter, and the step of the sacerdotal chair were vacant". "What fortitude in his acceptance of the episcopate, what strength of mind, what firmness of faith, that he took his seat intrepid in the sacerdotal chair, at a time when the tyrant in his hatred of bishops was making unspeakable threats, when he heard with far more patience that a rival prince was arising against him, than that a bishop of God was appointed at Rome" (ibid., 9). Is he not, asks St. Cyprian, to be numbered among the glorious confessors and martyrs who sat so long awaiting the sword or the cross or the stake and every other torture?
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Matthew Chapter 7
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." Urgent Pray for your departed loved ones ~ even if you do not believe in purgatory - what harm can come from praying for them?
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. But I say, walk by the Spirit and you shall not fulfil the To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. of the flesh. For the flesh To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. against the To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. , and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other: that you may not do the things that you would.
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