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  #1  
Old 2nd November 2010, 01:49 PM
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The "nice guy" chart

In an effort to put this issue to rest once and for all (which, I'm sure, will be futile but no harm in trying), I have constructed this chart to demonstrate why nice guys are so often wrongly maligned.

There is a tendency to conflate the "nice guy" with someone who is passive or weak, and (inconsistently, to a lesser extent) to associate jerks with strength or bravery. People try to construct a linear scale with weak, passive nice men on once side, and strong, assertive bad boys on the other.

However, there are two separate axes to that issue. By conflating them, people misrepresent all the possible types of people that can lie on the chart. So I have made a chart to demonstrate something closer to the truth. One axis represents "nice guys" vs. "jerks"; the other axis represents passivity vs. assertion.




As you can see, there are different kinds of jerks, and different kinds of nice guys.

There are passive nice guys: the wimps that constitute the usual strawman of those who criticize nice guys. They tend do be self-pitying or self-loathing, wishy-washy, and while they try not to hurt other people they may blame others for their problems. They will also let themselves be trampled by the objects of their affection. They, along with the next sort of person, are those who are described as "putting women on a pedestal" and pandering to women without regard for their own emotional and spiritual well-being.

There are passive jerks, who we could call passive-aggressive, manipulators, whiners, and the like. They have a sense of entitlement, and really don't care much for the feelings or needs of others, but prefer to use wheedling and guilt instead of domination to get their way. Like the wimp, they may place women on a pedestal, but rather than servility, they engage in pitymongering, threats of abandonment, and subtle insults.

There are assertive jerks, or bullies. These are the straight-up A-holes that openly ridicule and hurt others out of spite. The typically-imagined abuser would probably fall into this category.

And then there are the other sort of nice guys, the ones that always seem to be left out of these conversations. Though they are kind-hearted and do not wish to hurt other people, they are not obsequious or indecisive. They are polite, but they stand up for themselves. They have ambition, but they prefer to take others with them instead of stepping on them on the way up.

I made this chart in defense of the last kind of man. I think that there are far more of them than people - both the girls who tend to lump them in the friendzone along with the wimps, and the jerks who think that domination is a virtue - give credit for.
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Old 2nd November 2010, 02:06 PM
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Interesting...

What I find interesting is that typical Christianity has done a great job of making the stereotypical "nice guy" a virtue in men. Rather than focus on being a strong, powerful, confident man, the church has typically told men to be bearded women. It has exalted self-abasement, humility and the putting of the opposite sex (as well as everyone else) far above one's self. In trying to model 'agape' the church has, in many ways, effectively neutered modern masculinity.

Typically, when people (both men and women) describe the "nice guy" they are referring to the wimp. He's the one they cannot stand. The other guys may get somewhere with women, but cannot hold a relationship for any length of time because they are too insensitive and uncaring. Yet they are, at least, able to procure a phone number, a date, a one-night fling or a semblance of the beginning of a relationship.
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Old 2nd November 2010, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Howard Cneal View Post
Rather than focus on being a strong, powerful, confident man, the church has typically told men to be bearded women. It has exalted self-abasement, humility and the putting of the opposite sex (as well as everyone else) far above one's self. In trying to model 'agape' the church has, in many ways, effectively neutered modern masculinity.
It would be fairer to say that modern Christians, along with the world, have confused agape with passivity and an impossible standard of altruism (impossible because people who act in love and charity are still acting according to their own preferences). Agape is neither passive nor aggressive; it can be quite assertive when it confronts evil, but it is also polite and humble.

Typically, when people (both men and women) describe the "nice guy" they are referring to the wimp. He's the one they cannot stand. The other guys may get somewhere with women, but cannot hold a relationship for any length of time because they are too insensitive and uncaring. Yet they are, at least, able to procure a phone number, a date, a one-night fling or a semblance of the beginning of a relationship.
I disagree with this. A one-night stand or a fling are nothing close to the beginnings of a relationship. Romantic relationships encompass all aspects of two person's beings - emotional, spiritual, intellectual, and physical. Non-romantic relationships are all of those things except physical. A fling is physical only; maybe emotional to a highly limited extent. It is not the beginning of a relationship any more than a lump of metal is the beginnings of a car - it is a necessary component to the making of a car, but could just as easily be used to make something quite different, even contrary in purpose to a car.
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Old 2nd November 2010, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by MacFall View Post
It would be fairer to say that modern Christians, along with the world, have confused agape with passivity and an impossible standard of altruism (impossible because people who act in love and charity are still acting according to their own preferences). Agape is neither passive nor aggressive; it can be quite assertive when it confronts evil, but it is also polite and humble.



I disagree with this. A one-night stand or a fling are nothing close to the beginnings of a relationship. Romantic relationships encompass all aspects of two person's beings - emotional, spiritual, intellectual, and physical. Non-romantic relationships are all of those things except physical. A fling is physical only; maybe emotional to a highly limited extent. It is not the beginning of a relationship any more than a lump of metal is the beginnings of a car - it is a necessary component to the making of a car, but could just as easily be used to make something quite different, even contrary in purpose to a car.
I think agape can be aggressive. 'God is agape' yet He is also pretty confrontational and in-your-face in the OT. He certainly does not seem very passive when He talks about whetting his glittering sword or spreading dung upon the priests' faces because they weren't doing their jobs properly.


A fling is definitely not the start of a relationship (as a rule - and if it was, that would be a very bad start to one, that). I was just merely pointing out the simple fact that being a typical "jerk" can yield success in many venues; whether the goal is a date, a fling, a phone number, flirting, etc. I wasn't saying that a relationship and fling are the same thing, because they are far from it, as you say. Either way, the stereotypical "jerks" are often the ones the 'nice guys' decry and become offended with, because of their said successes in such avenues.

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Old 2nd November 2010, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Howard Cneal View Post
I think agape can be aggressive. 'God is agape' yet He is also pretty confrontational and in-your-face in the OT. He certainly does not seem very passive when He talks about whetting his glittering sword or spreading dung upon the priests' faces because they weren't doing their jobs properly.
You're confusing assertion with aggression. Assertion requires standing up for your rights; aggression requires infringing on someone else's rights*. Agape is necessarily respectful of other people's rights, as "love does not demand its own way".

*I'm aware that the word aggression is often conflated with assertion; it's difficult to imagine a coach telling his football team to "be assertive on the field". But in ethical/moral terms, the two concepts are quite distinct.
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Old 2nd November 2010, 04:50 PM
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This is pretty good, Mac. I think that it's somewhat more cloudy than that at times (for instance, I can be a real jerk at times), but overall this is actually a really good diagram.

Maybe if we could somehow cue that up with abusive/overbearing fathers, it would be more accurate though? I'm just thinking that a lot of the girls who I'm into are often quite a bit more mental than I am, and somehow the "nice guy" comes from simply being non-abusive. Just a thought.
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Old 2nd November 2010, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by MacFall View Post
You're confusing assertion with aggression. Assertion requires standing up for your rights; aggression requires infringing on someone else's rights*. Agape is necessarily respectful of other people's rights, as "love does not demand its own way".

*I'm aware that the word aggression is often conflated with assertion; it's difficult to imagine a coach telling his football team to "be assertive on the field". But in ethical/moral terms, the two concepts are quite distinct.
Not really. I don't think spreading dung on someone's face is simply just being assertive. That seems pretty aggressive to me. lol I don't see aggression as a bad thing, and I think most (Christian) Nice Guys could stand to be a little more 'aggressive' (or 'assertive' as you like to call it).

Of course, ultimately, the goal is to be a 'gentleman' as you describe him. And that's definitely an ideal. I don't know if I'd put him in the 'nice' category, though. He's a strong, independent, powerful guy... (Sadly) being nice is often tantamount to being "weak" and supplicating, which women obviously despise. I think what you're calling assertion, I am calling aggression (so it's all semantics anyway). I don't advocate being one who bullies others or put them down to make one's self look good. That's not right. But I like the term 'aggressive' so much more. It has more impact, to me personally. Anyway...

The book, 'No More Christian Nice Guy' deals with this whole topic in great detail. A buddy of mine read it, and it has drastically changed his way of thinking. He now realizes how crippling it can be to be a typical "nice guy" and is starting to learn how to avoid the pitfalls and snares of being a so-called "Christian Nice Guy". I've glanced at it, and it seems to make some pretty solid points. Have you heard of the book?
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Old 2nd November 2010, 05:22 PM
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I still think the line is a bit hazy sometimes. How nice is too nice? How assertive can you be until you become a jerk? I don't think the lines are as clear as some make them out to be but I'd like to hear what others have to say about it.
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Old 2nd November 2010, 05:59 PM
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The same person can be all over that map.
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Old 2nd November 2010, 06:21 PM
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IDK when I talk about nice guys I usually am talking about the pushovers, the guys that are afraid to have sex with women, like crying during it or something. But I guess its also the guys who are too gentleman like all the time as well. Though they are certainly better than the men who abuse their women.

Like I said sometimes you gotta learn how to push. We are not the most PC species in the world and I'd assume your Bible confirms that.
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