Home | Be a Christian | Devotionals | Join Us! | Forums | Rules | F.A.Q.


Go Back   Christian Forums > Theology (orthodox Christians only) > Theology (orthodox Christians only) > General Theology > Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum
Register BlogsPrayersJobsArcade Calendar Mark Forums Read

Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum The Endtimes & Prophecy Forum for the discussion of future events. No full preterist views. Partial preterists welcomed.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 13th October 2010, 10:39 AM
NightHawkeye's Avatar
Work-in-progress

Gender: Male Married Faith: Methodist Member For 3 Years
 
Join Date: 5th July 2010
Posts: 19,802
Blessings: 599,332,717
My Mood Blessed
Reps: 9,223,372,036,854,775,808 (power: 9,223,372,036,854,800)
NightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond repute
NightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond repute
Remnant of Israel = 144,000

One of the unanswered questions here recently has been the identity of the remnant of Revelation 12:
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
From this verse it's not at all obvious who/what the remnant is. The 144,000 has been identified as a possibility, but one which has been dismissed by many. We know though that the 144,000 are from the tribes of Israel, without fault before the throne, and that no guile is found in their mouths.

Confirmation that the 144,000 are the remnant of Revelation 12 comes from multiple Bible verses:
Zephaniah 3:13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Micah 5:8 And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

Zechariah 8:6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts. 7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country; 8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

Micah 2:12 I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of [the multitude of] men.

Micah 5:7 And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.

Micah 4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

Jeremiah 23:3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
It seems clear enough that the remnant of Revelation 12 corresponds with the 144,000 from the tribes.

That the remnant is the 144,000 came as a bit of a surprise to me. Perhaps it shouldn't have though. It has long seemed like the "man-child" was the 144,000.

Last edited by NightHawkeye; 13th October 2010 at 10:59 AM.
Reply With Quote
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!

  #2  
Old 13th October 2010, 11:42 AM
zeke37's Avatar
IMO...

43 Gender: Male Married Faith: Non-Denominational Party: CA-Conservatives Country: Canada Member For 5 Years Fisherman
 
Join Date: 24th May 2007
Posts: 11,719
Blessings: 200,910,333
My Mood Inspired
Reps: 307,520,533,935,544,576 (power: 307,520,533,935,562)
zeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond repute
zeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond repute
Bible

Originally Posted by NightHawkeye View Post
One of the unanswered questions here recently has been the identity of the remnant of Revelation 12:
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
From this verse it's not at all obvious who/what the remnant is. The 144,000 has been identified as a possibility, but one which has been dismissed by many. We know though that the 144,000 are from the tribes of Israel, without fault before the throne, and that no guile is found in their mouths.

Confirmation that the 144,000 are the remnant of Revelation 12 comes from multiple Bible verses:
Zephaniah 3:13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Micah 5:8 And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

Zechariah 8:6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts. 7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country; 8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

Micah 2:12 I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of [the multitude of] men.

Micah 5:7 And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.

Micah 4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

Jeremiah 23:3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
It seems clear enough that the remnant of Revelation 12 corresponds with the 144,000 from the tribes.

That the remnant is the 144,000 came as a bit of a surprise to me. Perhaps it shouldn't have though. It has long seemed like the "man-child" was the 144,000.
Hi
I realize you believe the 144,000 are the Man Child caught up in Rev12

consider that those promises by God, for and about the remnant, might be fulfilled after/during the Millennium,
so it is at least an option for me to see them as those believers other than the 144,000.

IMO the remnant mentioned at the end of the chapter
has a different identity than the Man Child, Who I believe to be Christ.

they are in the same chapter/vision, yet have different names...
The 144,000 are sealed and protected before the 4 trib winds blow....
Satan cannot go after them...he cannot sting them....
he goes after the rest of the believers, other than the 144,000
and he will be successful in beguiling/seducing them.
__________________
we just plant the seed, God grows It.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


in Christ's service
c

Last edited by zeke37; 13th October 2010 at 11:47 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 13th October 2010, 12:48 PM
NightHawkeye's Avatar
Work-in-progress

Gender: Male Married Faith: Methodist Member For 3 Years
 
Join Date: 5th July 2010
Posts: 19,802
Blessings: 599,332,717
My Mood Blessed
Reps: 9,223,372,036,854,775,808 (power: 9,223,372,036,854,800)
NightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond repute
NightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by zeke37 View Post
Hi
I realize you believe the 144,000 are the Man Child caught up in Rev12
I should probably clarify my position for you ...

I'm a technical geek.

When 2+2 is seen, the result is 4. Anyone says the result equals 8 is wrong. Some things are really that cut-and-dried. Not sure this is one of them though ...

This is more like we see 2 here and we also see 2 over there. Conclusive evidence shows they exhibit the same characteristics. There is also evidence strongly suggesting that they are the same, but not conclusive.

I simply follow the evidence. Truth is truth, regardless of any prior beliefs I might have (or you might have). I'm kinda like an AA member in that regard. I can only take one step at a time. Sometimes it's forward, other times backwards.

Originally Posted by zeke37 View Post
consider that those promises by God, for and about the remnant, might be fulfilled after/during the Millennium,
so it is at least an option for me to see them as those believers other than the 144,000.
Thanks for elucidating that. It's a useful perspective. Some of the verses I cited certainly are for the millennium. Others appear to pre-date the millennium though.

Originally Posted by zeke37 View Post
IMO the remnant mentioned at the end of the chapter
has a different identity than the Man Child, Who I believe to be Christ.
Won't argue with ya, since ya didn't present any evidence ...

Originally Posted by zeke37 View Post
they are in the same chapter/vision, yet have different names...
The 144,000 are sealed and protected before the 4 trib winds blow....
Satan cannot go after them...he cannot sting them....
he goes after the rest of the believers, other than the 144,000
and he will be successful in beguiling/seducing them.
There's a subtlety here that's under-appreciated. The OT precedent for sealing is protection from God's wrath, not from Satan. Some proof of protection from Satan would help resolve this.

I also seem to recall that there are OT verses indicating that some of the remnant will fall during tribulation. "They will be given a little help ... "
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 13th October 2010, 01:08 PM
interpreter's Avatar
Senior Member

67 Gender: Male Faith: Anglican Country: United States Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 4th March 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,760
Blessings: 90,499
Reps: 288,958,008,462,190,400 (power: 288,958,008,462,205)
interpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond repute
interpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond reputeinterpreter has a reputation beyond repute
The remnant of Israel is the 144,000 young Jewish men of fighting age who escaped the great tribulation of WW II by escaping to the Holy Land, and they were available to the new Israeli army of 1948. 100,000 joined the army, and 44,000 were conscientious objectors (i.e, Orthodox Jews).
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
"The proof of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" Revelation 19:10

Last edited by interpreter; 13th October 2010 at 01:14 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 13th October 2010, 02:53 PM
Veteran

50 Gender: Male Married Faith: Christian Country: United States Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 12th October 2007
Posts: 1,444
Blessings: 1,099,472
My Mood Cynical
Reps: 42,591,578,411,047,920 (power: 0)
trialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond repute
trialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond repute
In Revelation, there are two sets of 144,000 peoples.

1. 144,000 of the tribes of Israel (Rev 7)
2. 144,000 from among men (Rev 14)

In Revelation 12, there are four "characters" discussed.

1. The woman (Israel) who is protected and untouched by the devil.
2. The manchild (church) who is caught up to the throne of God.
3. The dragon (devil) who is cast down by Michael, the archangel.
4. The remnant of the woman's offspring whom the devil makes war with after the church is gone and the woman is protected.

Therefore, the 144,000 of Israel who are sealed and shown as protected (Rev 9) from the devil in Revelation are not the child and they are not the remnant of the woman's offspring. They are the woman.

Therefore, the 144,000 from among men (Rev 14) who is seen in heaven is not the woman, not the remnant of the woman's offspring. They are the manchild.

There are two remnants mentioned in Revelation -

1. the remnant of Israel that is sealed and protected from the devil (144,000 of Israel/the woman).

2. the remnant of the woman's offspring that the devil makes war with. (Christians and Jews who are not of the church or of the woman)

They are not the same. One is made war with. One is protected away from the devil.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 13th October 2010, 03:50 PM
NightHawkeye's Avatar
Work-in-progress

Gender: Male Married Faith: Methodist Member For 3 Years
 
Join Date: 5th July 2010
Posts: 19,802
Blessings: 599,332,717
My Mood Blessed
Reps: 9,223,372,036,854,775,808 (power: 9,223,372,036,854,800)
NightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond repute
NightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond repute
I daresay you ass u me a lot here, Trialbyfire. Much is contradicted by scripture.

Originally Posted by trialbyfire View Post
1. The woman (Israel) who is protected and untouched by the devil.
Actually, the woman flees to the wilderness. Doesn't say she is untouched. It says instead, the devil "persecuted the woman" after the woman brought forth the man-child.

Hence, woman doesn't fit criteria to be the 144,000.
Originally Posted by trialbyfire View Post
2. The manchild (church) who is caught up to the throne of God.
Present compelling irrefutable evidence if you really believe this. The generally accepted interpetation of woman is "church". Again, if you have some real evidence for your statement, please provide it.
Originally Posted by trialbyfire View Post
3. The dragon (devil) who is cast down by Michael, the archangel.
Yep.
Originally Posted by trialbyfire View Post
4. The remnant of the woman's offspring whom the devil makes war with after the church is gone and the woman is protected.
Failing to get the woman right, makes this subsequent event wrong as well.

Originally Posted by trialbyfire View Post
1. the remnant of Israel that is sealed and protected from the devil (144,000 of Israel/the woman).
The remnant is the 144,000, but not the woman.

Originally Posted by trialbyfire View Post
2. the remnant of the woman's offspring that the devil makes war with. (Christians and Jews who are not of the church or of the woman)
You're demonstrably wrong on this, Trialbyfire. The remnant of Revelation 12 "keep the commandments of God" and therefore are clearly of the church.
Remnant is specified three times in Revelation:
a) The remnant of Revelation 11 are "affrighted" and give Glory to God.
b) The remnant of Revelation 12 keep the commandments of God.
c) The remnant of Revelation 19 are slain with the sword-from-the-mouth.

It's possible that the remnant of Rev 11 are not of the church, but that's kinda irrelevant to this thread. It seems that the remnant of Rev 19 would not be of the church but, again, that's also irrelevant to this thread.


.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 13th October 2010, 05:27 PM
zeke37's Avatar
IMO...

43 Gender: Male Married Faith: Non-Denominational Party: CA-Conservatives Country: Canada Member For 5 Years Fisherman
 
Join Date: 24th May 2007
Posts: 11,719
Blessings: 200,910,333
My Mood Inspired
Reps: 307,520,533,935,544,576 (power: 307,520,533,935,562)
zeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond repute
zeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond reputezeke37 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by NightHawkeye View Post
I should probably clarify my position for you ...

I'm a technical geek.

When 2+2 is seen, the result is 4. Anyone says the result equals 8 is wrong. Some things are really that cut-and-dried. Not sure this is one of them though ...

This is more like we see 2 here and we also see 2 over there. Conclusive evidence shows they exhibit the same characteristics. There is also evidence strongly suggesting that they are the same, but not conclusive.

I simply follow the evidence. Truth is truth, regardless of any prior beliefs I might have (or you might have). I'm kinda like an AA member in that regard. I can only take one step at a time. Sometimes it's forward, other times backwards.



Thanks for elucidating that. It's a useful perspective. Some of the verses I cited certainly are for the millennium. Others appear to pre-date the millennium though.


Won't argue with ya, since ya didn't present any evidence ...



There's a subtlety here that's under-appreciated. The OT precedent for sealing is protection from God's wrath, not from Satan. Some proof of protection from Satan would help resolve this.
some view Satan and what he does as part of God's wrath...

but anyway...Luk21 protection promised to the witnessing elect,
Rev9 limits the locust armies actions to those marked....

I also seem to recall that there are OT verses indicating that some of the remnant will fall during tribulation. "They will be given a little help ... "
my pastor did a study on that'little help" part...
have to get my notes...
I think the Hebrew clears it up...
__________________
we just plant the seed, God grows It.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


in Christ's service
c
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 13th October 2010, 06:24 PM
NightHawkeye's Avatar
Work-in-progress

Gender: Male Married Faith: Methodist Member For 3 Years
 
Join Date: 5th July 2010
Posts: 19,802
Blessings: 599,332,717
My Mood Blessed
Reps: 9,223,372,036,854,775,808 (power: 9,223,372,036,854,800)
NightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond repute
NightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by zeke37 View Post
some view Satan and what he does as part of God's wrath...
Understandable ..., and in that vein:
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
As I look at this, I have to wonder ... there are really only two possibilities:
1) the "saints" are tested and literally killed, or
2) the "saints" have already been tested and found worthy.

If the latter, then the war ends when the voices of the saints are quieted (at least for practical purposes). In either case, these saints appear to be the remnant of Revelation 12. I'm inclined to believe possibility 2 above, because the first choice above would be in contradiction with what's stated elsewhere about the 144,000. Of course, if the saints are other than the 144,000 then possibilities expand considerably ...

Originally Posted by zeke37 View Post
but anyway...Luk21 protection promised to the witnessing elect,
Luke 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
Kinda suggests the second possibility above, doesn't it? Of, course, there's that pesky part about some being put to death ...

Originally Posted by zeke37 View Post
Rev9 limits the locust armies actions to those marked....
Again, an argument for the second possibility ...

Originally Posted by zeke37 View Post
my pastor did a study on that'little help" part...
have to get my notes...
I think the Hebrew clears it up...
I'd like to see that, Zeke.


.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 13th October 2010, 10:21 PM
Veteran

50 Gender: Male Married Faith: Christian Country: United States Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 12th October 2007
Posts: 1,444
Blessings: 1,099,472
My Mood Cynical
Reps: 42,591,578,411,047,920 (power: 0)
trialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond repute
trialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond reputetrialbyfire has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by NightHawkeye View Post
I daresay you ass u me a lot here, Trialbyfire. Much is contradicted by scripture.


Actually, the woman flees to the wilderness. Doesn't say she is untouched. It says instead, the devil "persecuted the woman" after the woman brought forth the man-child.

Hence, woman doesn't fit criteria to be the 144,000.

Present compelling irrefutable evidence if you really believe this. The generally accepted interpetation of woman is "church". Again, if you have some real evidence for your statement, please provide it.

Yep.

Failing to get the woman right, makes this subsequent event wrong as well.


The remnant is the 144,000, but not the woman.


You're demonstrably wrong on this, Trialbyfire. The remnant of Revelation 12 "keep the commandments of God" and therefore are clearly of the church.
Remnant is specified three times in Revelation:
a) The remnant of Revelation 11 are "affrighted" and give Glory to God.
b) The remnant of Revelation 12 keep the commandments of God.
c) The remnant of Revelation 19 are slain with the sword-from-the-mouth.

It's possible that the remnant of Rev 11 are not of the church, but that's kinda irrelevant to this thread. It seems that the remnant of Rev 19 would not be of the church but, again, that's also irrelevant to this thread.


.
Ok, now you're way off. The woman is not the church. The remnant of the devil's armies in Rev 19 are not the same remnant as the remnant of Israel or the remnant of the woman's offspring.

It doesn't matter what "people" say or what the "popular opinion" is. It only matters what Scripture says.

The 144,000 of Israel are never seen in heaven in Revelation. The church is. No one else, besides the church, is ever caught up to the throne of God.

The devil can't touch the woman. He "persecutes the woman" by sending the flood (armies) after her (gog) whom God destroys. It says she is protected away from the devil for 42 months. The devil can't touch the 144,000 of Israel (Rev 9). The woman is Israel - the Kingdom of God.

The remnant of the woman's offspring are people who are not the woman, not the church, but who choose to believe after the church is caught up. They are judged by their works. Only those who are beheaded at that time are judged worthy to be a part of the church AFTER Christ comes to destroy.

The remnant who are destroyed by Christ are specifically the rest of the armies of the devil who gathered to fight against Christ.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 13th October 2010, 11:29 PM
NightHawkeye's Avatar
Work-in-progress

Gender: Male Married Faith: Methodist Member For 3 Years
 
Join Date: 5th July 2010
Posts: 19,802
Blessings: 599,332,717
My Mood Blessed
Reps: 9,223,372,036,854,775,808 (power: 9,223,372,036,854,800)
NightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond repute
NightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond reputeNightHawkeye has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by trialbyfire View Post
Ok, now you're way off.
The woman is not the church.
The remnant of the devil's armies in Rev 19 are not the same remnant as the remnant of Israel
or the remnant of the woman's offspring.
OK. It's OK for you to have those opinions, Trialbyfire. Really.

Originally Posted by trialbyfire View Post
It doesn't matter what "people" say or what the "popular opinion" is. It only matters what Scripture says.
I agree fully. There are really only three things posters here can do: prove, disprove or make noise. The choice is yours, Trialbyfire.

Originally Posted by trialbyfire View Post
The 144,000 of Israel are never seen in heaven in Revelation. The church is. No one else, besides the church, is ever caught up to the throne of God.
LOL. I can't wait to hear how you explain this away then ...

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Originally Posted by trialbyfire View Post
The devil can't touch the woman. He "persecutes the woman" by sending the flood (armies) after her (gog) whom God destroys. It says she is protected away from the devil for 42 months. The devil can't touch the 144,000 of Israel (Rev 9). The woman is Israel - the Kingdom of God.
It's good you have this all figured out, Trialbyfire. It's important to have opinions. Just be sure to keep an open mind so that when new information comes along you'll be able to deal with it.

Originally Posted by trialbyfire View Post
The remnant of the woman's offspring are people who are not the woman, not the church, but who choose to believe after the church is caught up. They are judged by their works. Only those who are beheaded at that time are judged worthy to be a part of the church AFTER Christ comes to destroy.
LOL. That's another nice opinion, Trialbyfire.

Originally Posted by trialbyfire View Post
The remnant who are destroyed by Christ are specifically the rest of the armies of the devil who gathered to fight against Christ.
Can't argue too much with this one. It's not entirely clear though whether those destroyed are just Satan's army, or whether simple mis-guided individuals are included as well.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Return to Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum

Thread Tools
Display Modes


 
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:04 PM.