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  #1  
Unread 30th September 2010, 02:04 PM
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Correlation between amounts of faith and supernatural occurrences

The girlfriend and I were having a Bible study (over the phone) last night and were reading Acts 4 when the light bulb came on.

Acts 4:
" 8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people! 9If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, 10then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11He is
" 'the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the capstone.[a]'[b] 12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

13When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus. 14But since they could see the man who had been healed standing there with them, there was nothing they could say. 15So they ordered them to withdraw from the Sanhedrin and then conferred together. 16"What are we going to do with these men?" they asked. "Everybody living in Jerusalem knows they have done an outstanding miracle, and we cannot deny it. 17But to stop this thing from spreading any further among the people, we must warn these men to speak no longer to anyone in this name."

18Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John replied, "Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God. 20For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard."

21After further threats they let them go. They could not decide how to punish them, because all the people were praising God for what had happened. 22For the man who was miraculously healed was over forty years old."
...
32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
36Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means Son of Encouragement), 37sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles' feet.
You don't find this kind of faith anymore. Heck I can just look into history and find "Christians" of the middle ages not demonstrating such faith. You don't see people selling their homes and land and bringing it to the church or give it to the needed. Sure, I've pulled a few bucks out of my pocket to buy a homeless person a cheeseburger or a shirt to wear, but I really cannot even fathom selling all my stuff and giving the money away.

Do you think that there is a correlation between the amount of faith you have and your ability (only by Christ Himself) to perform miracles? I do. Christ even says so:

Matthew 17:20
He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."
This only makes me realize how little faith I really have, and how much doubt is really there. I have never see miracles like the ones described in the Gospels or in Acts, nor do I see any Christians I know putting their faith in God instead of doctors when health problems arise, or selling their homes and land to follow Christ and carry their cross. Why is this?
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  #2  
Unread 30th September 2010, 05:18 PM
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Why is this? It is because most folks have no idea who God is or who Christ is. But because we might know without even the shadow of a doubt that God is able it doesn't mean He will. The problem is that most folks have faith in their faith instead of in Christ. The Apostles wrought many might works because it clearly showed that they were speaking by God. Heb. 2:1-4 If you see a man working miracles today you had better expect to hear a new revelation from God by him. But since we have the canon of Scripture God has said all He intends to say to us in this world. The working of miracles is no sign of great faith. Satan is very adept at appearing as an angel of light.

Oh yeah I forgot to address your point about selling all you have. Show me where the Apostles or any of the folks at Jerusalem at that time were told to do such a thing. Actually it didn't work out for them. If you read further into the book of Acts you find folks complaining that they weren't getting their fair share of the communal bounty. The first settlers to this country tried it as well and it was a miserable failure for them as well. Faith isn't doing acts it is simply trusting. If you feel led to sell all you have and give it to the poor then do it but if you tell anyone about it it is nothing but a show. Do what you are convinced is the Lord's will but never make a show of religion. God hates a religious show.

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Unread 30th September 2010, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by 98cwitr View Post
You don't find this kind of faith anymore.
Actually history is chock full of great men and women of faith, and there are many even now. If you're not seeing any, perhaps you need to get out more. I realize that sounds flippant. But it's not meant to be. We live in a rich, spoiled, comfortable culture that has most of us lazy and half asleep. Spend some time anywhere else in the world where Christians are persecuted or even just where life is really hard, and you'll see great faith is alive and well and quite obvious.


Originally Posted by 98cwitr View Post
Heck I can just look into history and find "Christians" of the middle ages not demonstrating such faith. You don't see people selling their homes and land and bringing it to the church or give it to the needed. Sure, I've pulled a few bucks out of my pocket to buy a homeless person a cheeseburger or a shirt to wear, but I really cannot even fathom selling all my stuff and giving the money away.
Maybe you don't see it because they don't boast about it. Just a thought.

Originally Posted by 98cwitr View Post
Do you think that there is a correlation between the amount of faith you have and your ability (only by Christ Himself) to perform miracles? I do. Christ even says so:

Matthew 17:20
Disagree. That scripture is often used by proponents of the prosperity gospel to promote the idea that if we just muster up enough "faith" we can perform all sorts of signs and wonders, which is utterly sickening. Faith is a gift from God, for starters. Second, God is not limited in the slightest by us mere puny humans. When He performs miracles it is for His glory in fulfillment of His plan. And no amount of unbelief will thwart His plans. Yes, we certainly have a call and responsibility to live according to the faith He has given us. But that is not so that He can be enabled to do anything.

Originally Posted by 98cwitr View Post
This only makes me realize how little faith I really have, and how much doubt is really there. I have never see miracles like the ones described in the Gospels or in Acts,
Hm, well that's primarily because the Canon of Scripture is closed, and those gifts were primarily for the purpose of authenticating it.

Originally Posted by 98cwitr View Post
nor do I see any Christians I know putting their faith in God instead of doctors when health problems arise,
I'm sorry, but then what kinds of "Christians" are you associating with? Definitely God has given us doctors for the purpose of healing within His providential grace. However when a Christian sees a doctor it should never be because he or she doesn't believe God can heal (in His time, according to His purpose, when it bring Him glory, of course!). We trust Him with all aspects of our lives, do we not? That includes trusting that He has provided legitimate means for us to function in daily life with out constant requirement for miraculous intervention.
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Unread 30th September 2010, 08:43 PM
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I agree. And I've known of a ministry which witnessed miracles first hand on Skid Row in LA. A group of people prayed over a palsy, and she got out of her wheel chair and was cured (it's in the Lord's hands). Yet, the natural mind doubts this, "Was she really palsy to begin with?" I question it as well, even though I'm telling you this. The whole, "those were signs to the original church to authenticate their faith," is not necessarily true. It's based on one scripture that does not give a definitive of when it would end. In fact, the Bible teaches that many false teachers will deny the power of godliness (I'm not accusing anyone, just bringing it up). However, in the same verse it tells us that knowledge will pass away as well, so has knowledge stopped too?

I've known very few Christians who have done such things (selling all their possessions). I do not think that it is because they don't make a show, I think it's because they don't. I'm not trying to come of judgmental, but it's common sense. The whole early churches' faith was heard throughout the world. Was it heard because they did what they did in secret? Doubtful. We're not to boast in our works and we're not to judge people who do not do the same works as us. Not necessarily that we shouldn't make our works known. Even Jesus said people will know we are His disciples by our love. It must be seen in order for people to know. It's one thing to make it seen, it's another thing to make a show of it.

Now, people suppress the truth to deny God. But as I've mentioned before (I think here on CF), perhaps the reason so many people are atheists, is because the church is complacent. I realize this is a lot of generalizations, so if this doesn't fit you, I'm sorry.

But I'm hypocritical of everything I've mentioned above.
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Unread 1st October 2010, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by mlqurgw View Post
Why is this? It is because most folks have no idea who God is or who Christ is. But because we might know without even the shadow of a doubt that God is able it doesn't mean He will. The problem is that most folks have faith in their faith instead of in Christ. The Apostles wrought many might works because it clearly showed that they were speaking by God. Heb. 2:1-4 If you see a man working miracles today you had better expect to hear a new revelation from God by him. But since we have the canon of Scripture God has said all He intends to say to us in this world. The working of miracles is no sign of great faith. Satan is very adept at appearing as an angel of light.

Oh yeah I forgot to address your point about selling all you have. Show me where the Apostles or any of the folks at Jerusalem at that time were told to do such a thing. Actually it didn't work out for them. If you read further into the book of Acts you find folks complaining that they weren't getting their fair share of the communal bounty. The first settlers to this country tried it as well and it was a miserable failure for them as well. Faith isn't doing acts it is simply trusting. If you feel led to sell all you have and give it to the poor then do it but if you tell anyone about it it is nothing but a show. Do what you are convinced is the Lord's will but never make a show of religion. God hates a religious show.
Isn't the conduct of these disciples a model that we Christians are to follow?
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Unread 1st October 2010, 09:46 AM
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Isn't the conduct of these disciples a model that we Christians are to follow?
The conduct of Jesus is our model but we aren't supposed to get nailed to anything wooden.

You only need to sell everything if it is in the way of you giving everything to God. You are right, we teach the now-satanic teaching of tithing. In reality 100% goes to God, 0% is required to go to church(club-house)fees because 100% is to go to Church (benefit of the kingdom overall).

Not to say that giving 10% to club-house fees is wrong! It's just that if you do so and think you're aces spending the rest of your money on things that don't benefit the Kingdom the you have been deceived. (taking care of yourself, kids etc benefits the Kingdom)
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Unread 1st October 2010, 09:53 AM
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we're not talking about tithes, Magus, you cannot carry your cross and your possessions at the same time.

Matthew 10:38
and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Mark 8:34
Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Luke 9:23
Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

Luke 14:27
And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.


That's not the point of this thread though. Christ tells us with only a little faith we can move a mountain or move and reroot a tree in the sea. This might be figurative to mean we can do great things, but I don't see that from any of the Christians that I have come in contact with and would really like to see it for myself. I would like to see what realy faith is apart from my own imagination.
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Unread 1st October 2010, 10:09 AM
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I'm not so sure you want what you're asking for. Faith enough to change the world around you in dramatic ways can lead to a big dose of "careful what you wish for".

Go talk to some folks at pentecostal church's who were physically addicted to substances and didn't suffer any physiological symptoms of withdrawal because they kept in the Lord; as a matter of fact if you don't understand what Jesus was talking about there you might do well to fast, pray and spend some time praising God for who God is and just standing right-under his Love.

When you feel the water spring-up in you and start to un-fathom the infinite breath with and depth of God... when you see what Christ would have had for you as a person if you had stayed in Him... that's when you'll understand man:

The change to reality that occurs through faith happens ALL the time, but we forget about it because memory of such events was reserved for those bearing witness for the bible: all so that we can have faith.

Would you rather see and believe, or be counted among those who do not see but still believe?
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Unread 1st October 2010, 10:32 AM
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I'm talking about people doing supernatural things through the spirit. God doing supernatural things on His own is quite obvious
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Unread 1st October 2010, 03:09 PM
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Off topic here. Is to deny ourselves to give up things that start taking control of our lives8
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