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22nd September 2010, 10:30 PM
|  | Only convinced by evidence.
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| | Join Date: 7th May 2010 Location: Ohio
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Reps: 169,954,181,608,696,480 (power: 169,954,181,608,702) | | | Let me put it this way.
Secularists, such as myself aren't really that afraid of Islam taking over. Yes, we know they are bat-.... errr crazy. But the thing is, we've already have been dealing with the influence of a major religion taking away our freedoms and rewriting history for over a century now. It'd be nothing new. The constitution will at least protect us from becoming a theocracy (it has thus far) -- something that I'm sure isn't only an inappropriately arousing concept to Muslims alone.
So what I (and anyone who shares my opinion) do, is respect the freedom of religion, because I know with confidence that this awesome nation will protect me from a theocratic oppression.
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“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.” -- Susan B. Anthony |
22nd September 2010, 11:18 PM
|  | Legend
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 | | Join Date: 20th January 2004 Location: Sydney, NSW
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Reps: 2,946,003,535,378,828,800 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Delphiki  Let me put it this way.
Secularists, such as myself aren't really that afraid of Islam taking over. Yes, we know they are bat-.... errr crazy. But the thing is, we've already have been dealing with the influence of a major religion taking away our freedoms and rewriting history for over a century now. It'd be nothing new. The constitution will at least protect us from becoming a theocracy (it has thus far) -- something that I'm sure isn't only an inappropriately arousing concept to Muslims alone.
So what I (and anyone who shares my opinion) do, is respect the freedom of religion, because I know with confidence that this awesome nation will protect me from a theocratic oppression.
One doesn't have to make a religion the formal religion of state for it to have dominance.
And the constitution can be changed can it not - by means of refaranda? |
22nd September 2010, 11:20 PM
| | Legend
45
| | Join Date: 20th January 2004 Location: Sydney, NSW
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Reps: 2,946,003,535,378,828,800 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Delphiki I motion that Catholic Churches not be built within a 10 mile radius of any playground.
If you can show a causal link between Catholicism and child abuse you'd be on your way to making a point based on evidence. Good luck  |
23rd September 2010, 12:54 AM
|  | Some sort of timey-wimey madness
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| | Join Date: 21st July 2008 Location: Illinois
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Reps: 439,494,907,125,169,984 (power: 439,494,907,125,179) | | Originally Posted by Montalban So you say, but ironically you're not discussing Islam
Start a thread. Just a hint 
I didn't plan on it. I'm here to derail because I'm tired of the same subject.
Too lazy to make my own thread so I'm just going to complain instead. 
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"To the grownups, if you want to deny evolution and live in your world that's completely inconsistent with everything we've observed in the universe, that's fine.
But don't make your kids do it--because we need them. We need scientifically literate voters and taxpayers for the future. We need engineers that can build stuff, solve problems." -- Bill Nye
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23rd September 2010, 03:43 AM
| | Legend
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| | Join Date: 20th January 2004 Location: Sydney, NSW
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Reps: 2,946,003,535,378,828,800 (power: 0) | | | Anyone who'd care to discuss Islam??? Jihad and war! |
23rd September 2010, 04:33 AM
|  | Reverencing the Exalted Spirit of Man
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| | Join Date: 1st January 2003 Location: American resident of Sweden
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Reps: 579,882,325,460,913,792 (power: 579,882,325,460,945) | | Originally Posted by Montalban Anyone who'd care to discuss Islam??? Jihad and war!
War? Then we'd be discussing Christianity too. eudaimonia,
Mark
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23rd September 2010, 04:44 AM
|  | Minister, Liberal, Quaker, Theologian and TSSF
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Reps: 1,058,546,147,353,140,480 (power: 1,058,546,147,353,176) | | | Jihad is first and foremost the struggle with the innermost self, it is the lesser jihad which is war.
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dir="ltr"> "You cannot claim to worship Jesus in the Tabernacle, if you do not pity Jesus in the slums… It is folly — it is madness — to suppose that you can worship Jesus in the Sacraments and Jesus on the throne of glory, when you are sweating him in the souls and bodies of his children." -- Bishop Frank Weston, 1923 Anglo-Catholic Congress Father Ray McIntyre
Anglican Church International |
23rd September 2010, 05:22 AM
|  | Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
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| | Join Date: 31st March 2006 Location: Wales
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Reps: 2,304,241,849,508,589,312 (power: 2,304,241,849,508,611) | | Originally Posted by Montalban I'd be the first to congratulate any Moslem who wants to reinterpret their Koran away from violence.
However all the large Islamic schools of thought, and even the Sufi movement have interpreted it in terms of al-Lah's approval of violence.
There's a great book on this called " The Legacy of Jihad"
In this he sources Islamic opinion over the 1,400 years of Islam to show a constant theme on interpretation.
If you know of any less literal interpretations you're also more than welcome to show them here.
The evidence-lite approach to discussion is one I would avoid.
He has another work, which I don't yet have called The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism
Still does not tell us how Feisal Rauf interpretes the Koran. If you want to look at the history of antisemitism, European Christianity has had a much worse track record of antisemitism, persecuting, killing and exiling Jews and confiscating their property, all in the name of Christ and the bible. Maybe you and I don't interprete the bible the way antisemites have. But then again, maybe Rauf doesn't interpret the Koran the way you do.
Call this evidence light if you want, but the evidence you haven't produced is Rauf's own attitude towards Jews as a Muslim. Throughout the history of the church, Christians have held radically different attitudes to the Jews, I don't see why Muslims should be any different. What I do think is that if Muslims want to live in peace with Jews, it is not up to Christians to preach antisemitism from the koran.
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When you come to the Ammonites, do not
harass them or provoke them. Deut 2:19
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23rd September 2010, 06:48 AM
| | Legend
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| | Join Date: 20th January 2004 Location: Sydney, NSW
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Reps: 2,946,003,535,378,828,800 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by kiwimac Jihad is first and foremost the struggle with the innermost self, it is the lesser jihad which is war.
Have you got evidence for this? |
23rd September 2010, 06:55 AM
|  | Senior Veteran
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| | Join Date: 6th December 2004 Location: Arizona
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Reps: 197,302,394,532,338,528 (power: 197,302,394,532,355) | | Originally Posted by peaceful soul I must say that I am dissappointed how some of you (namely liberal minded individuals) who don't seem to take Islam seriously with regards to its potential to destroy non Islamic societies by its infiltration. Endorsing Muslims or any group who have intentions to destroy freedoms and liberties of others should be taken serious enough to consider with some wisdom of what can happen if Islam is not monitored and held accountable according to non Islamic values in the lands they are moving to, specifically those of the West. It is people like the one who is proposing to build this mosque that should have your attention. From all that we know of him, he has ties to terrorist groups and is not someone that we should support an any way. In fact, the U.S. should consider him a threat to our socitey and security. His speeches and ideas are not American and are encouraging Muslims to violence against the West and to make Muslim relations with other religions worse.
What makes his ideas non-American?
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