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Old 9th September 2010, 01:07 PM
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Gender Outreach in Church

Two articles linked and posted, both are so encouraging to me, as I keep saying, the "awakening" is coming....more on the awakening at the end.

I write here alot about it, and read a lot about it,it can be summed up as follows:

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The modern church doesn't have any characters like Eliphaz and his buddies, who "advised" Job, does it? To ask the question is to answer it.

I fear too many men's ministries are headed by "miserable comforters." They don't get it. Their theology is pat, simplistic, and lacking in serious reflection that comes from a concerted study of God's word and a modicum of spiritual growth. They falsely assume that the problems men face are largely self-inflicted. As Paul Coughlin has noted, women get "fellowship" groups while men get "accountability" groups. The "miserable comforters" will declare that if you only do "xyz" then God will resolve things. They don't want to listen. They want to discourse at length about their Mickey Mouse theodicy and assume that solves the problem. Sermonizing relieves them from understanding, compassion, and weeping with "those who weep" (Romans 12:15).

Here's a dangerous question to ask: What qualifies these people to minister? Are they ruling by decree? Or leading by example (1 Peter 5:1-3)? Really, let's think about it ...

1. Do they come from a tough background or where they raised in a supportive Christian home?

2. Have they ever experienced long periods of social isolation or alienation?

3. Have they ever struggled for a long time with sexual desire in the face of constant rejection from the opposite sex?

4. Have they ever lost their job, relationship, or something else comparable because of a personal failing?

5. Have they ever felt they were going nowhere with their life, being stuck in an unrewarding, dead-end situation?

6. Have they ever felt that their dreams have been dashed and that the doors have been slammed in their face?

7. Have they ever felt out of place in churches and among other believers?

8. Have they ever had to struggle with health problems at a young age?

9. Have they ever struggled with depression, serious backsliding, feelings of worthlessness, anger at God, feelings of being rejected by God?

10. Have they ever "hit bottom" with a serious challenge such as drug abuse, a prison sentence, contemplating suicide, etc.?

I suppose you or I could add to the list. I am not saying that men have to go through all of these things before they minister to others. On the other hand, if you see a pattern where self-proclaimed experts on "Biblical Manhood" act patronizing and condescending to men, and yet have never really struggled with the things many men struggle with, then take note. I fear that too many involved in "pastoring" or "ministering" to men grew up in the system, or were accepted early on because they "looked the part." Jesus, on the other hand, was "despised and rejected by men," "acquainted with suffering" and "tempted in all points" (Isaiah 53:3; Hebrew 4:15). Jesus understands what men go through. The others? I'm not so certain.

Jesus described his ministry this way: "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He anointed Me to preach the Gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free those who are oppressed, to proclaim the favorable year of the Lord" (Luke 4:18-19). But of the Pharisees he said, "They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger" (Matthew 23:4).

Do you feel free from the spiritual bondage of sin, guilt, dread, emptiness, and/or despair? Or do you feel weighted down? It's one thing to demand that people be holy; it's quite another thing to show them how to be holy by example. Gentlemen, test the spirits (1 John 4:1). Get out the litmus strips and see if your leaders are authentic. Maybe God, in his mercy, can work through them even though their motives are less than honorable (Philippians 1:15-18). Maybe they are in an acceptable relationship with God, but I really think many of them have misunderstood their calling. Perhaps the best thing they can do to advance the cause of Christ is to sit down and shut up.


And further this

---------------------------------------------------------

Church Girls Gone Mild, Paul Coughlin

Pain & Prejudice

While returning from teaching at an Iron Sharpens Iron men’s conference in Hartford, CT last weekend, I chuckled out loud while on the long plane ride home back to the West Coast. I recounted in my mind some of the hilarious comments men made during the question and answer portion of my seminar about how important emotional engagement is today in marriage.
We discussed a lot of topics during the seminar: How wives, not husbands, are more likely to begin a serious conversation more harshly, so be prepared. Why responding in anger is the wrong way to get to a win-win in marriage. How childhood trauma causes many adult men to be passive and timid when it comes to emotions, and how important it is for such men to do the soulwork necessary to overcome this problem in order to meet the emotional needs of our wives.
But what sticks out most in my mind are the “Amens” and “Say it Brother” I heard when I talked about the tremendous prejudice against their male nature. When I embarked on my unusual ministry to Christian men, I assumed that it would be the younger Christian men who saw this problem the clearest, and who would be willing to undergo the hard work to correct it. Turns out, it’s men in their 50’s and 60’s who express the most disappointment, resentment, and anger toward well-meaning messages that have mishandled their masculine nature. But it makes sense to me now: they are the group that bought the propaganda the longest, tried to live by it, and who, along with their wives and children, have paid the largest price.
Here are some of the messages Christian men have been told, some for decades:
· If there is a major problem in a couple’s marriage, whether or not it leads to divorce, it is ultimately the husband’s fault.
· Women are more moral and spiritual than men.
· Women are more sensitive to the Holy Spirit than men.
In addition, Father’s Day and Mother’s Day are an opportunity in many churches to tell men how to be better fathers instead of honoring them as fathers. One man said he no longer goes to church on either day. “The pastor’s wife preaches on Father’s Day and tells us how bad we are. Then on Mother’s Day we have to get on our knees and beg our wives for forgiveness.” Ask yourself: What would happen if women were told how to be better mothers, or told to beg for their husband’s forgiveness during these special days? You know the answer.
To drive a better understanding of this prejudice home, I point out how one popular Christian author said that in 30 years of counseling, he has never seen a divorce that was not ultimately the husband’s fault. Let that radical statement from a traditionalist sink in for a moment, because this man represents much of what we hear on Christian radio, what we read in Christian books, and what he hear from guest speakers at church, supposed “experts” on marriage.
To say that in three decades of marriage counseling that you have never seen a case where the husband was not to blame for the divorce is to go through life seeing what you want to see. It is a form of spiritual delusion. Such a person should have his counseling license pulled and he should apologize to the men he has wounded.
I saw this wounding in a man who sat in my office, his foot twitching. He was told by a Christian man who claims to be a counselor that his wife’s battle with depression was really his fault. “I was told that I wasn’t the spiritual leader that I needed to be,” he told me, face turning red, anger swelling his throat. “He told me that if I would just get ‘back up on the cross’ that my wife’s depression would go away.” He no longer goes to church, yet he speaks about the church with the passion of a spurned lover. He stopped reading Christian books and listening to Christian radio long ago because he feels double-crossed.
I do what I can to help such men, but the bleeding is so great that I can only do so much. I point out during conferences that nowhere in the Bible does it state that men are ultimately to blame for their failed marriages. Or that women are more moral and spiritual and sensitive to the Holy Spirit. These are cultural fabrications put in the mouth of God. And I call this message against men what it is: Bigotry.
The Bible states plainly that though groups have distinctions, they remain equal before God in value. “For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink” (I Cor 12:13). “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Gal. 3:28).
I also point out that beating up on Christian men in church is good business in Christian media. The Apostle Paul wrote about this tendency in his second letter to the church in Corinth. “For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God’s word.” (IICor 2:17) Some Christian authors and speakers know that they can malign men and get away with it because guys will “suck it up” and keep coming to church. They know that their message plays well with some women. It’s hard to get a person like this to understand the problem when their paycheck depends upon them not understanding the problem.
Christian men don’t like the prejudice against them, they complain--sometimes bitterly--in private, but they keep going, though something happens to many of them beginning in their late thirties. Church becomes a chore. And a bore. They go out of duty, not because they receive much inspiration there as men, or truly helpful instruction regarding marriage and gender differences. They go because they feel they have to.
If you question this prejudice against men, then ask yourself: Why do men have “Accountability Groups,” at church, yet women have “Fellowship Groups”? Men are treated as if they are one step away from committing felonies. So they require constant monitoring, constant “accountability,” as if they are at risk of jumping a form of spiritual bail.
Bigotry robs people of dignity and value. It frustrates common and healthy human desires, creates dark psychic storm clouds, and unless a man is unusually robust, creates spiritual fissures. Bitterness, anger, and resentment seep into men’s souls, as I heard during the question and answer portion of the conference. One man used some words that I can’t restate here regarding his wife’s behavior and how handcuffed he felt defending himself and his children against her wicked tongue. He’s been told that a “good Christian man” does not confront his wife about her behavior. His spiritual training has told him that accepting abuse is synonymous with sacrifice, so he sits there and takes it. He doesn’t feel right protecting his children either.
But the biggest problems aren’t that such bigotry takes place and those who are guilty of it get away with it. The biggest problem is that with enough intensity and duration the group under fire believes the propaganda against them.
Minorities believe they are feckless.
Blondes believe they are stupid.
Christian men believe they’re spiritually deficient.
No wonder they don’t lead as they should. Or they lead, but with the unsure footing that accompanies fear, inspiring confidence in no one. Or they lead, but with ambivalence, inspiring no respect in no one either.
Paul Coughlin is the author of No More Christian Nice Guy,

----------------------------------------------

The awakening will look ugly and create havoc. Women will literally leave churches over it, and try and take their husbands with them....some men will gladly go...because they are still stuck in "low mode", some will go because they are leaders...they lead where she tells them to go, some few will stay, some will experience TRUE revival of Biblical manhood, and marriages where both spouses see some value in that will be the best ones left standing.
I guess there will even be divorces come aplenty as these things get fixed, and the comfort of what is a badly skewed norm becomes what will FEEL LIKE a full on attack on women.
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Old 9th September 2010, 01:09 PM
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It boggles my mind, this stuff IS the norm....it IS the stuff of Promise Keepers, and in the last guys case an "Iron Sharpens Iron" conference.

Yet STILL they persist saying we are running rough shod, and that because a man is at the pulpit means men are in charge....well, give me a woman in charge if she actually speaks truth.
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Old 9th September 2010, 01:23 PM
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The Outcast

I took a walk on a public path near to where I live; it is a delight to horsemen, ladies with strollers, rollerbladers, and all sorts of diverse people. People ride their bikes, stroll, or have picnics there. There are wild berries to be found (if you know where to look), water fountains, and flowers that are both cultivated and wild. Scout troops maintain the cultivated flower beds. If the breeze is right the smell is intoxicating.
…. I found a man seeking solace there, battered by circumstance; one would not overstate the case to say that, metaphorically, his guts were hanging out. His wife had left and had an affair with a man who was “more spiritual” than he was; and moreover it was one that she had planned and executed in advance, even telling some members of her [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] session — excuse me, fellowship circle — about her plans. Said man found himself an outcast in his own fellowship when this became public; for he was thought “diseased” in some way; he had been accused of all sorts of mis-deeds in a public fashion. His wife thought to bolster her case for infidelity by spreading tales. It so happened he had met other believers on his walk. One of them was quick with a “God Bless” and a happy smile and hurried along; he didn’t really want to pry. It was none of his business, and his own wife was in the [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] session. Excuse me; prayer meeting. Another man — I tell you, this is a popular public walkway in the summertime — came along, this one a pastor. It so happens that this pastor had taken in the adulterous wife and put her on his music ministry, since he needed someone who could play the piano. He stopped to commiserate with the man, and told him to make sure he kept himself connected to people, and explained that he thought it better for the adulterous wife to be in church, at least, rather than out in the world, doing worldly things. Or something like that. Anyway I came upon him after all these strange visitations; and he was still trying to make heads or tails of his situation. The normal Christian universe had become inverted; for things were happening that defined explanation. He even had a Christian marriage counselor from his fellowship — she had a cutesy Holy Spirit dove on her business card — decline to address his wife’s infidelity in a joint counseling session. It would have been “unethical” since the wife did not wish to talk about this; it would have been wrong from the standpoint of her professional credential and the canons of the counselor’s profession to press a matter against a client’s desires.
However, he had met this fellow a few weeks prior – we’ll call him Bob (since that was his name) who had had suchlike things happen to him as well, and also had found disfavor in his local fellowship. It’s so obviously the man’s fault, right? Anyway Bob had committed to pray for him and made himself available. Really available for the all the struggles of a newly divorced man. It was interesting that Bob’s help was all under the radar, since the Pastor at Bob’s church had read a bestselling book in which was revealed (!) that all marriage failures are the fault of the man. But Bob stood by his fellow believer. No fees, no condemnation; rebuke when it was called for, and prayer for and fealty towards his injured brother in the Lord. He made a point of checking up on him from time to time; even feeding him a sandwich once…..
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Old 9th September 2010, 01:23 PM
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Posts too long?
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Old 9th September 2010, 01:53 PM
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I have ventured to put my foot into the bit about “adultery” not to “soften” the idea of “purity” but rather to attempt to make the reader think. Sister: Do you want to be married to a man who is not interested in women by definition because the only approach his teachers and pastors have had towards his masculinity is to make him feel guilty for being attracted to them; and by extension to you?
*If you are willing to say publicly that a man can divorce his wife, or a woman can divorce her husband for a “lustful look” then you have the standing to rattle your gums at me for this. If you can’t, won’t, or don’t, put a cork in it while you reflect on this awhile. We are so used to using this as a “club” rather than “an explanation” that it seems we balk at thinking about this.
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Old 9th September 2010, 02:16 PM
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Interesting food for thought.
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Old 9th September 2010, 02:48 PM
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Debbie Maken's designs, it is this quote:
"Women, our biggest challenge in holding men accountable and inspiring them to biblical manhood is that they often don't know any better. They don't understand that this issue goes beyond personal choice to being held accountable by God for failing to pursue his will for their lives. We have no choice but to educate men. I think it would certainly be better if it came from ministers, church leaders, parents, or other male friends, but many of them are not particularly aware of the problem either."
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Old 9th September 2010, 03:40 PM
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I only read the first article of the first post.

I enjoyed it.
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"Pit Bulls and Christians, the whole lot of them being damned for a few bad apples"

I dreamt death came the other night
and Heaven's gates swung wide
An Angel with Halo Bright
Ushered me inside
And there to my astonishment
Stood folks I had judged and Labeled
as Quite unfit, of Little Worth, and Spiritually Disabled.
Indigent words rose to my lips
But never were set Free
as every face showed stun surprise
not one expected me.
  #9  
Old 9th September 2010, 03:46 PM
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chaz345 has a reputation beyond reputechaz345 has a reputation beyond reputechaz345 has a reputation beyond reputechaz345 has a reputation beyond reputechaz345 has a reputation beyond reputechaz345 has a reputation beyond reputechaz345 has a reputation beyond reputechaz345 has a reputation beyond reputechaz345 has a reputation beyond reputechaz345 has a reputation beyond reputechaz345 has a reputation beyond reputechaz345 has a reputation beyond reputechaz345 has a reputation beyond reputechaz345 has a reputation beyond reputechaz345 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Conservativation View Post
Posts too long?
No not too long, just nothing to add. I agree with what is said, and I'm just waiting for the usual crowd to come along and try to invalidate what's being said.

In short "quit whining and be a man".
  #10  
Old 9th September 2010, 03:49 PM
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useless

Gender: Male Married Faith: Non-Denominational Member For 2 Years
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Join Date: 18th June 2009
Posts: 10,629
Blessings: 2,245,161
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Reps: 321,111,302,317,927,872 (power: 321,111,302,317,940)
Conservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond repute
Conservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond reputeConservativation has a reputation beyond repute
I guess I was talking to them....and wondering where they were, when I asked posts too long
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I often wonder what terrorists think, when Americans so frequently choose to congregate at the Target
 


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