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  #11  
Unread 27th December 2010, 09:23 PM
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Very risky indeed. The risk is seeing what is really behind the curtain. We know this DMT phenomena isn't quite that. This has been a route of spiritually minded people in all cultures and religions for 5,000 years. This is nothing new.
I can't imagine that I would be sitting here saying these things 5 years ago, or 10 or 20 or even 30 years ago. It would have been off the table without giving it any real thought at all.
I am currently preparing for my next DMT experience. This will be my last one. My Pastor is going to sit with me during the experience, take notes and help me through the resulting information.
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  #12  
Unread 27th December 2010, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by wineart View Post
Very risky indeed. The risk is seeing what is really behind the curtain. We know this DMT phenomena isn't quite that. This has been a route of spiritually minded people in all cultures and religions for 5,000 years. This is nothing new.
I can't imagine that I would be sitting here saying these things 5 years ago, or 10 or 20 or even 30 years ago. It would have been off the table without giving it any real thought at all.
I am currently preparing for my next DMT experience. This will be my last one. My Pastor is going to sit with me during the experience, take notes and help me through the resulting information.
You pastor is in on it! well i suppose if you've made up your mind then its done but i can't believe a pastor is going to take notes! I am very curious to know about this, as risky as it is. I hope you aren't attacked or coerced by an evil spirit, so much is unknown about this. Even though i do not personally know you, i am a little afraid for you.
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  #13  
Unread 27th December 2010, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by benf View Post
This guy got it right.




But more seriously:
Why do some of you seem to think it is OK to consume a drug, because it is naturally occurring in the human body?

Some of you need to understand that wisdom and understanding are given to us by God, not reached by our contrived attempts at reaching out to him, especially so if it involves breaking the law.

Important note: given to us by God doesn't mean you can reach a stretched rationalizing by saying:
God put DMT in our body
DMT can be synthesized by humans
If I take DMT, I'm not breaking the law for enjoyment, I'm breaking the law to be enlightened!!!

This is full of important to note fallacies:
1. That since we produce DMT, and we can synthesize it, that taking it is okay, because we are using it to reach God, and breaking the law with "holy" (haha) intentions.

Untrue because:
Jesus says, above, that the only way to the Father (God, who embodies Love, Wisdom, Righteousness, etc.) is through him. Not our own inventions or leanings. How can you possibly get enlightened by mixing unnecessary law-breaking with "study" of God???!!! see:

Romans 6:1
...Should we continue in sin, that grace may abound?


2. That We can break the law when it serves a higher purpose.

Can you come closer to God without taking drugs? Can you come closer to god with legal drugs (memory supplements, etc.)? Do you need that particular drug, with complete justification of it being used specifically, to get closer to Jesus? No, you don't. Preachers of the past, great and small, didn't need them. The apostles didn't need them. God wants you to put in hard work and forget about shortcuts. There are no shortcuts when it comes to God.

You also can't say that man's laws are trumped by God's laws. In the big picture, obviously God's laws trump Man's, but you can't break them. Unless the laws prevent you from fulfilling your duty as a Christian (Pray, Read the bible, and worship/preach), we are told explicitly to obey them.

see:
1 Peter 2:13-17
13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 15 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. 16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves. 17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.


3. The concept of enlightenment coming from within and being direct towards God.

This one bothers me.

You can't enlighten yourself. You are a creature of sin, how can you use your (sinful) mind to bring about holiness? That is ridiculously absurd just by the premise alone.

Let's bring the bible verses out about this one:
1 Peter 1:13-16

13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”

See that in verse 14? The bible tells us to not use our way of thinking. To be like children who rely on God and his teachings, not sinners who rationalize with their logic of man.

Another important part of this is the fact that drugs don't jive with the holy spirit. The holy spirit is given to guide us and help us learn. Essentially, God says he gives us everything we need to learn and grow at the moment of salvation. The holy spirit.

Look at these verses in John 16:13-15
(words of Jesus)
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.



You can't downplay the importance of the holy spirit, rationalize the unnecessary and illegal, and put a "be sure you are all prayed up!!! warning on it. That warning alone shows you know your behavior is dangerous.

Does God want you doing dangerous things that could (rather, should) be done other ways?

wineart I'm praying for you.
You are wrong on so many levels I don't know where to begin...You can use DMT legally for religious or spiritual reasons. No one is synthesising anything, it is a naturally occuring compound everywhere on earth.

In recent years I have been enlightened, way before any knowledge of DMT.

I was saved over 30 years ago, with a Slain in the Spirit experience, something I was ill prepared for in that I had no previous knwledge of it too. I have attended the same ultra conservative Full Gospel church for virtually all of those years.

I witnessed and to men & women for all of those years and continue today. DMT is not a substance to take lightly, because you will see things that your mind says are impossible. There is a very thin curtain between this world and the ecclesiastical.

Virtually every major vision/prophesy is accompanied by the description of a DMT experience. Every dream you have ever had where you may know in your dream that you are dreaming, is brought on by receptors responding to a flow of DMT from the pineal gland.

DMT doesn't affect your mind or your judgement. Your mind is no different than it is when you wake up in the morning. There is no stoned or high kind of feeling. After the experience there is going to be significant awe, and sometimes a smile you can't get off your face.

The feeling you get when Dallas Holm sings "Rise Again" on Easter...You have that feeling 1000X.

This was aways wrong for me and would have reached similar conclusions, until....

Until what? Until I got far more insight into the questions that plagued me for so long. These questions are always 100% of the time answered with "you have to have faith"... (Lean not unto thine own understanding...") But what about when we have understanding? We are learning very fast in the world we live in today. For instance we know today that disease is caused in large part by microbes and unseen bacteria, not the sin of our forefathers unto the 7th generation. We know we must wash our hands after visiting the hospital.

Even as something as simple as the definition of what "dead" is, has changed dramatically in just a couple of years. What was dead in 1900 isn't near dead anymore, just check any Living Will.

The point being, what we have always known isn't going to always be what we know. Taking that premise for grantid, it's time to really examine what you have always believed.

Jesus chose 12, each for specific reasons, to be sure. All but one became Apostles. Each of them writing thier accounts of Christ's teachings. Each of them went out to bear the fruit of thier evangelizing. Each of thier churches from Subsaharan Africa, to Asia to Europe the Middle & Near East. Each of those sects venerated the writings and the apostasy that brought them to where they were.

Yet of the 11 Apostles Christ chose only 3 (Luke having not been a selected desciple) of 11 gospels were accepted into the current cannon.
As is ALWAYS the case, when there is a struggle, the winners get to write history and the losers become heretics. The Council of Nicea chose these books because it fit into the current doctrine of Orthadoxy (winners are orthadox, losers heretics).

Now these ancient texts are available for the world to read. It is very clear why these books were excluded. The man with the ultimate decision as to what got in or tossed out like a pack of lies, was Constantine a Pagan.

Heck the Council of Nicea didn't believe The Revelation of John was accurate and would have opted for the long accepted Apocrypha of Peter.
There isn't a Theologian of any standing in any credible Divinity School that doesn't know that.

It would seem that if a man or woman wanted to examine what Christ left us with would be best reflected in the 1st Century Church rather than diffused through the new Age of Dispensationalism that pervades all the "Full Gospel" churches.

So Jesus either had so little discernment he chose the 12 unwisely by recruiting liars or Nicea got it wrong. I wonder which the 3 Wise men would have chosen?

Almost the entirety of the New Testament writings are attributed to men that never knew or witnessed a single thing that they wrote. Luke, Acts (also written by Luke, it was originally a continuation of Luke) and the volumes attributed to Paul. *another interesting note: John's gospel was accepted but his Apochrypha was discarded...Go figure

Each book was discarded or chosen based primarily on which sects venerated these books. The sects sitting at Nicea were the only venerated texts chosen.

I would have always replied, The Holy Spirit was in control of those ballots cast. Sure wish He was in control of other Ballots. Choosing the Cannon was based as much upon free will as anyother decision we make.

When those texts are read the blanks I had were filled in and the "puzzle" fit together so nicely. The nature of creation is explained. Even how Jesus was created before the dawn of the the universe. When I read these things all I could say was wow, is my Pastor going to have a hard time explaining this.

When I first confronted my Pastor after a couples of reading, he looked down then up and said "yes I know...It is perplexing". As I went even further into writings of the early church, my entire relationship with God was so much more complete and my mind was so much more at ease.

Those nagging questions, aren't so nagging anymore. I can wrap my mind around God more completely, (my heart was never in question).

About a year ago I read about DMT and saw a Discovery Channel show on the subject. Then I read more about it. I realized alot of what I read was being written my modern day mystic thinkers whose search is for something entirely different from my own.

What happens if someone has a brain tumor involving the pineal glad? No more lucid dreams and no more personal connection to God. I guess that needs rewording. The person would no longer feel drawn by God, because the pineal gland (also known as Third Eye) is the part of our brain that recogizes the spiritual aspects of our lives. It is basically a spiritual lobotomy. Our reaching out to God and recognizing the divine comes from somewhere, guess what? They think they found it.

About whether God intended us to utilize the DMT once we found it, I can't judge that. That hasn't been revealed to me. I don't think it will because that is not what I am seeking.

One needs to be prayed up to get all that one can out of the experience. I want the prayer to guide me. The prayer cements my intentions and desires.

For me it is loss of pride & ego. Pride being the one thing that ignites all sin. I believe pride on any level is the enemy of the spirit. I don't think I can eliminate pride without the revelation that accompanies the DMT experience. Most of us are defenseless against it. It permiates our lives from the time our mothers taught us to take pride in making a nice bed when we got up in the morning. We are told to take pride in our appearance. In our pride we ignore the warnings of graven images, we ignore the commandment of the Sabbath, we covet everything we see. Look around your house and see how many adornments and trinkets are displayed and polished on a regular basis. We fill our lives with "stuff", most stuff we would do better without in the first place. It is stuff that makes us work so hard we don't have the hours in a day to attend to our spiritual needs when we are attending to our stuff needs.

At least for me I am HONESTLY seeking wisdom, knowledge & humility in all things. Most Christians I know are raising thier hands in Praise & Worship on Sunday morning and Wednesday evening. Mostly self edifying efforts. It's how Christians in my world get powered up for the week.

I never would have dared go to this place if I wasn't sure the Holy Spirit has His hand on me and is my protector to anything that could be perhaps too profound for me to handle.

Now I have a pretty good idea what is in store for us after we die. I almost feel like giggling at the anticipation of the World to Come. The World to come is already here by the way, & it isn't very far, trust me....There is a very thin veil/membrane seperating us.

Anyway I intend one more peek behind the curtain. It takes me several weeks to work myself up to it. In the next couple of weeks I will make an appointment with my pastor and we will go through this once more. The first time I was distracted by the view and I couldn't get past the "Oh my God, oh my God...Awesome Wonder".

Hopefully this next one will be more easily grasped and recorded more precisely. I only have a short life left and what I have left I want filled with contemplation of the eternal and the daily loss of ego/pride as I shed my "stuff".

Again sorry about the rambling, it is hard to concentrate until after the grand kids leave. My wife is upset I kept running back and forth here. :-)
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  #14  
Unread 27th December 2010, 11:47 PM
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LOL, My Pastor is so far away from doing this! He would NEVER. He too was far too curious after my report to him, for him to leave me on my own with this kind of experience.
Trust me though, he is as facinated by what I have seen as anything he can recount.
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Unread 28th December 2010, 12:01 AM
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You can see a lot of weird things when you are tripping. Some of it can seem rather profound. If you start taking it too seriously you are probably on the start of downward spiral though. Heck back in the day I thought my journey in a car to different places was representative of me traveling internally through the various chakras and that I was on the way to enlightenment. Thankfully the next day when I woke up passed out on the kitchen floor I realized it was all non-sense. If you start taking stuff like that seriously you are in trouble. Probably best to leave the drugs behind. Seriously, it isn't worth fooling around with. It's bad enough to use it for recreation but if you start thinking it has anything to do with being "spiritual" you are just deceiving yourself.
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  #16  
Unread 28th December 2010, 01:57 AM
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christians using DMT? all i knew about it is that its a psychedelic drug and was used by the natives around the amazon river.

what do christians experience when they get high on this stuff? they see heaven and hell? is it similar to what people see in near death experiences?
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Unread 28th December 2010, 06:04 AM
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It is the Ayahuasca of the Amazon & Peru. It just happens to be far easier to write DMT.
All the Chakra business is that of the mystic types that have no other frame of spiritual reference. But regardless of the point of reference it is just indescribeable with words and you are left with weak metaphors to explain it. I cringe everytime I hear a 60's throwback outline his or her's experience as such from the Berkley point of view.
It is the near death experience that presents itself.
As far as Christians taking it, that goes back to the 1500's. Christian Monks while on the horrible European trek through South America were first exposed the Ayahuasca. Like so many other indiginous rituals it was allowed to be incorporated into the "new Christianity" being presented to those people. It is sometimes known or referred to as "Folk Catholacism".
I don't think there are 1 in 10,000 people "cut out" for this type of experience.
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Unread 28th December 2010, 07:25 AM
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irst of all you need to stop thinking in terms of getting high. I don't know how to be more succint that it is not a recreational drug. It DOES NOT get you high, if it did it would be abused. There are very few people who ever abused, it is abuse proof.
It is sort of ironic in a sad way to read Christians assume thier knowledge is exclusively thir own and assume it is the REAL DEAL.
I have been a part of the Body of Christ since before many of you were born. In that time I have been involved in debates with men & women who discount any teaching but thier own. We roll our eyes at Catholics we treat Jehovah Witnesses like they are lepers and Mormons like they are heretics. With an only we have it frame of mind.
It isn't your fault. You are taught, you digest it and then again regurgitate it as divine enlightenment. Again along these lines we hold in contempt every denomination that doesn't fall in line with what we have come to understand. We always agree to pray for these people, "that they will come to understand the Lord like we do." Since the dawn of Christianity and all of it's movements from Protestantism to Calvinism we have all thought God was speaking to us through a new interpretation of the Word. Pride goes before each of us in such a way the we are sure we have the answer and have seen a new light and anyone that doesn't see the light as we see it, are really in the dark.

God gave each of us at birth a mind capable on knowledge and the capacity for pragmatic insight & He gave it to us for a reason. I am going to go out on a limb and say that God at the day we are before Him will look at 2 people who come from vastly different teachings as the the nature of God and see 1 who fell in line (by faith) with the current state of teaching and the other who spent his or her life in the never ending search for a deeper personal relationship with Him that is to some degree outside the current state of teaching. To which will He say "good job".

Imagine for a moment that we subject ourselves to the literal interpretaion of Jesus's healings. He healded stating "Your sins are forgiven". From a historical perspective the current teaching of the time, was all illness comes from sin. Now we know illness comes from unseen microbes or a mutation of our DNA (usually from some environmental influence). Today when we go to healing services and hands are laid upon us and we are annointed with oil, we don't say "your sins are forgiven". Usually we say "I hope you find a good doctor".

We all know the religious sects that cling to faith healing and under no circumstance will they submit to a blood transfusion or seek modern medical treatment. We usually respond that the people now have knowledge and a deeper understanding of the cause of our ilness & should seek out a doctor. Isn't that rather convenient, that we lean on our new found understanding and wisdom & we don't seek the forgiveness for the sin that caused our debilitation, but rather seek out an antibiotic. In years past if you told any Christian that his illness was brought on by an invisable bug and could be treated with a capsule taken 2 times a day for 5 days, it would have cost you your life. All divine wisdom & knowledge at the time would have marked you a witch or worse. We now know that 90% (1,980 years of our Christian history) of all teaching about about illness and disease was being taught in "darkness".

I guess pretty much everything is transitory and we make up the rules as we go along, we always have and always will. Otherwise we would still be clinging to the truths of the early church & we know that todays church is unrecognizable by that standard.
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Unread 28th December 2010, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by wineart View Post
irst of all you need to stop thinking in terms of getting high. I don't know how to be more succint that it is not a recreational drug. It DOES NOT get you high, if it did it would be abused. There are very few people who ever abused, it is abuse proof.
It is sort of ironic in a sad way to read Christians assume thier knowledge is exclusively thir own and assume it is the REAL DEAL.
I have been a part of the Body of Christ since before many of you were born. In that time I have been involved in debates with men & women who discount any teaching but thier own. We roll our eyes at Catholics we treat Jehovah Witnesses like they are lepers and Mormons like they are heretics. With an only we have it frame of mind.
It isn't your fault. You are taught, you digest it and then again regurgitate it as divine enlightenment. Again along these lines we hold in contempt every denomination that doesn't fall in line with what we have come to understand. We always agree to pray for these people, "that they will come to understand the Lord like we do." Since the dawn of Christianity and all of it's movements from Protestantism to Calvinism we have all thought God was speaking to us through a new interpretation of the Word. Pride goes before each of us in such a way the we are sure we have the answer and have seen a new light and anyone that doesn't see the light as we see it, are really in the dark.

God gave each of us at birth a mind capable on knowledge and the capacity for pragmatic insight & He gave it to us for a reason. I am going to go out on a limb and say that God at the day we are before Him will look at 2 people who come from vastly different teachings as the the nature of God and see 1 who fell in line (by faith) with the current state of teaching and the other who spent his or her life in the never ending search for a deeper personal relationship with Him that is to some degree outside the current state of teaching. To which will He say "good job".

Imagine for a moment that we subject ourselves to the literal interpretaion of Jesus's healings. He healded stating "Your sins are forgiven". From a historical perspective the current teaching of the time, was all illness comes from sin. Now we know illness comes from unseen microbes or a mutation of our DNA (usually from some environmental influence). Today when we go to healing services and hands are laid upon us and we are annointed with oil, we don't say "your sins are forgiven". Usually we say "I hope you find a good doctor".

We all know the religious sects that cling to faith healing and under no circumstance will they submit to a blood transfusion or seek modern medical treatment. We usually respond that the people now have knowledge and a deeper understanding of the cause of our ilness & should seek out a doctor. Isn't that rather convenient, that we lean on our new found understanding and wisdom & we don't seek the forgiveness for the sin that caused our debilitation, but rather seek out an antibiotic. In years past if you told any Christian that his illness was brought on by an invisable bug and could be treated with a capsule taken 2 times a day for 5 days, it would have cost you your life. All divine wisdom & knowledge at the time would have marked you a witch or worse. We now know that 90% (1,980 years of our Christian history) of all teaching about about illness and disease was being taught in "darkness".

I guess pretty much everything is transitory and we make up the rules as we go along, we always have and always will. Otherwise we would still be clinging to the truths of the early church & we know that todays church is unrecognizable by that standard.
While you are correct that most denominations teach that they are the only way to Christ, I believe you are misspoken when you talked about Jesus' healing and the forgiveness of sins. Like in Mark 5:25 we find the story of a woman who knew that if she could get close enough to Jesus, her ailment would be healed. She did not approach him to have her sins forgiven. Many of the others that were healed by Jesus did in fact accompany Him saying,"Your sins are forgiven." This does not belittle the act of the healing. No, it heightens the healing act and adds the healing from sin when people put their faith in Jesus Christ.

You talk about this drug (and it is if you have to take something in more than what your own body makes and has on hand) and that it gives someone "enlightenment" by showing them "spiritual things". What about what Jesus told us when He said, "blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Another question one must ask themselves about this DMT, is does it reveal any spiritual TRUTHS that can be verified in the Bible or does it merely elevate one to a higher spiritual level and awareness. If it only elevates and does not revelate, it very well might be of the Devil. Remember we are to test the spirits.

I cannot speak for anyone else but myself, but I would rather pray to Jesus that He would reveal Himself to me than to rely on anything else.

In Christ, GB
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Unread 28th December 2010, 01:36 PM
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irst of all you need to stop thinking in terms of getting high. I don't know how to be more succint that it is not a recreational drug. It DOES NOT get you high, if it did it would be abused.
You would be surprised what some people consider "recreational". Some people hate the way they are sober so much they don't really mind the puking and near death experience thing as long as it's different and provides some level of distraction from the real world. Not saying thats the case with you personally. Just saying.
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"The soul which bears abundant clusters of fruit is the one which has driven out of itself anything that says: 'This man is good, and that man is bad; this man is just and that man is a sinner.'... The barren soul is the one which judges its neighbor as being good or evil... When the grace visits us, the light of the love of our fellow-men, which is shed on the mirror of our heart, is such that we do not see in the world any sinners or evil men; but when we are under the influence of the demons, we are so much in the darkness of wrath that do not see a single good or upright man in the world."

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Last edited by Christos Anesti; 28th December 2010 at 01:43 PM.
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