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  #11  
Unread 6th September 2010, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Hentenza View Post
On average "guess work" produces 6% correct guesses. The bible's completed prophesies are 100% correct. I doubt it very much that it is "guess work". Of course, you will probably believe that for the last 3500 years the bible writers worked tirelessly in a conspiracy to deceive you. lol
just out of interest, where did you get your statistics from? and if you're not too busy could then you possible show me a link to the bible's prophecies and evidence that they are correct please? and i don't necessarily believe that the bible writers were purposely trying to deceive me.
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  #12  
Unread 7th September 2010, 05:51 AM
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The cross is a T shape

Originally Posted by i_am_me View Post
that's an interesting interpretation but why was it only a T shape and not a full cross shape? surely a prediction would at least show a full cross and maybe even show Jesus on that cross.

while i'm not saying that you're definitely wrong, i think that the symbols you have looked at are quite ambiguous and could be interpreted in more than one way. if they had written clearly what would happen then it would be less ambiguous.

i also think that it's unlikely that people back then would predict the crucifixion of Christ. i think that a lot of "prophecies" out there are due to lucky guess work rather than some sort of divine intervention.
There is nothing ambiguous about the cross being a T shape. And the figure of a man being crucified on it is indeed depicted there, along with the animals that are also placed there on the reliefs. But the painting on the wall of Calvary gives the clear meaning. Mary and John at the cross of Calvary, with three crosses. This is the freeze frame I took from the German documentary ...



This is not something I made up. It is on the wall at Gobekli Tepe. If you can't see Calvary in this image it is because you refuse to see it. You have eyes to see but you can't see.

The particularl T shapes used at Gobekli Tepe were probably done as they are because it was necessary to preserve the shape through a great conflagration. The people who placed the images there were related to Adam, who knew God, and to Enoch and to Methuselah and to Noah. Their prophecies were not just mishaps. Somebody went to a great deal of trouble to build this temple and then bury it. It is entirely consistent with the notion that Noah knew there was going to be a flood.

If the crosses had had a protruding upper portion on the T they would likely have fallen off in the conflagration. But it is not necessary that the cross should have such an upper portion, as is typically depicted, anyway because they come close enough. Notice that the particular design of the stones is not exactly the same as the design on the pictograph, which survived, yet even the unbelieving photographer intuited that there was a connection. Clearly then it is obvious that the pictograph is of a cross. And anyone can see that crosses on the pictograph which surround it also have figures on them. The one on the left is anthropoidal. And there are two people, looking very distressed approaching the central cross. The two figures at the cross were Mary and John. Enoch knew this would happen. Methuselah was born before Enoch died. Noah was born 500 years before Methuselah died. Enoch was born before Adam died. And only the archeologists place a date prior to Adam, not believing in the young earth.

I see no ambiguity here whatever. It is not 5%. It is 100% clear.
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  #13  
Unread 7th September 2010, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by jamescarvin View Post
There is nothing ambiguous about the cross being a T shape. And the figure of a man being crucified on it is indeed depicted there, along with the animals that are also placed there on the reliefs. But the painting on the wall of Calvary gives the clear meaning. Mary and John at the cross of Calvary, with three crosses. This is the freeze frame I took from the German documentary ...



This is not something I made up. It is on the wall at Gobekli Tepe. If you can't see Calvary in this image it is because you refuse to see it. You have eyes to see but you can't see.

The particularl T shapes used at Gobekli Tepe were probably done as they are because it was necessary to preserve the shape through a great conflagration. The people who placed the images there were related to Adam, who knew God, and to Enoch and to Methuselah and to Noah. Their prophecies were not just mishaps. Somebody went to a great deal of trouble to build this temple and then bury it. It is entirely consistent with the notion that Noah knew there was going to be a flood.

If the crosses had had a protruding upper portion on the T they would likely have fallen off in the conflagration. But it is not necessary that the cross should have such an upper portion, as is typically depicted, anyway because they come close enough. Notice that the particular design of the stones is not exactly the same as the design on the pictograph, which survived, yet even the unbelieving photographer intuited that there was a connection. Clearly then it is obvious that the pictograph is of a cross. And anyone can see that crosses on the pictograph which surround it also have figures on them. The one on the left is anthropoidal. And there are two people, looking very distressed approaching the central cross. The two figures at the cross were Mary and John. Enoch knew this would happen. Methuselah was born before Enoch died. Noah was born 500 years before Methuselah died. Enoch was born before Adam died. And only the archeologists place a date prior to Adam, not believing in the young earth.

I see no ambiguity here whatever. It is not 5%. It is 100% clear.
I don't know where your photo of that painting came from, but I cannot find any reliable source depicting it at Gobekli Tepe. Gobekli Tepe, if the carbon dating is correct, would pre-date Adam by 6000+ years and would be part of a pre-Adamic world.

Some people look at a cloud and see all sorts of imagery, others see a cloud with maybe a chance of rain. The Shroud of Turin is one thing, this is another.
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Unread 7th September 2010, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jamescarvin View Post
There is nothing ambiguous about the cross being a T shape. And the figure of a man being crucified on it is indeed depicted there, along with the animals that are also placed there on the reliefs. But the painting on the wall of Calvary gives the clear meaning. Mary and John at the cross of Calvary, with three crosses. This is the freeze frame I took from the German documentary ...
yes it does look like people and crosses... sort of. but it still looks ambiguous to me.
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Unread 7th September 2010, 01:06 PM
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I will take a wait and see approach. Once all is unearthed we will have more to base decisions on. In the mean time we are free to speculate as longs as we don't get to far out on the limb.
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Unread 7th September 2010, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by sam5432 View Post
I will take a wait and see approach. Once all is unearthed we will have more to base decisions on. In the mean time we are free to speculate as longs as we don't get to far out on the limb.
This is a very intelligent approach. When people get too far out on a limb and the limb gets sawed off behind them, they are left hanging out in space without a foundation, with a gap between their current position and the roots of their faith.
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Unread 7th September 2010, 07:48 PM
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Pre-Adamic?

Originally Posted by Faith.Man View Post
I don't know where your photo of that painting came from, but I cannot find any reliable source depicting it at Gobekli Tepe. Gobekli Tepe, if the carbon dating is correct, would pre-date Adam by 6000+ years and would be part of a pre-Adamic world.

Some people look at a cloud and see all sorts of imagery, others see a cloud with maybe a chance of rain. The Shroud of Turin is one thing, this is another.
For those who believe the Bible is true, except for five days, there is no such thing as a "Pre-Adamic world." Not so sure what you mean about the Shroud of Turin. This is definitely another thing. I have no opinion about the Shroud, pro or con.

I got the picture from the German Documentary on Gobekli Tepe. The head archeologist is from Germany and I believe this was produced by his team. Pictographs are a feature of the find as well as reliefs. You can see the image from whence I took the still for yourself right here ...



Couldn't be a more plain picture of Calvary, IMHO. But each will see what he wants and refuse to see what he doesn't want. That is why the Jews never accepted their own Messiah, refusing to see hundreds of prophecies pertaining to Jesus. It happens.
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Unread 7th September 2010, 08:20 PM
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prophecies fulfilled

Originally Posted by i_am_me View Post
...and if you're not too busy could then you possible show me a link to the bible's prophecies and evidence that they are correct please? and i don't necessarily believe that the bible writers were purposely trying to deceive me.
I think the best source for understanding fulfilled prophecy was written by Justin the Martyr around 165 C.E., Dialog with Trypho, a Jew. There were many others with many other insightful observations. But I think it is best to start with the earliest sources, and that would be Justin. That way, at least, you don't have to feel like it is just later Christianity rewriting the past. His writing is long ... because the number of prophecies fulfilled is numerous.
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Unread 8th September 2010, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by jamescarvin View Post
For those who believe the Bible is true, except for five days, there is no such thing as a "Pre-Adamic world." Not so sure what you mean about the Shroud of Turin. This is definitely another thing. I have no opinion about the Shroud, pro or con.

I got the picture from the German Documentary on Gobekli Tepe. The head archeologist is from Germany and I believe this was produced by his team. Pictographs are a feature of the find as well as reliefs. You can see the image from whence I took the still for yourself right here ...



Couldn't be a more plain picture of Calvary, IMHO. But each will see what he wants and refuse to see what he doesn't want. That is why the Jews never accepted their own Messiah, refusing to see hundreds of prophecies pertaining to Jesus. It happens.
So, do you believe those of us who take the Bible literally, and see a gap (Gap Theory) in the Genesis account are heretics? Do you consider those of us like Merrill C. Unger who believed in an OEC as a heretic? How about Dr. Walter Kaiser? Gleason Archer? Finis Jennings Dake? Dr. David Snoke? Dr. Hugh Ross, Dr. William Craig, C. I. Schofield, et al?
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Unread 8th September 2010, 11:16 AM
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Smudge Thinking

Originally Posted by Faith.Man View Post
So, do you believe those of us who take the Bible literally, and see a gap (Gap Theory) in the Genesis account are heretics? Do you consider those of us like Merrill C. Unger who believed in an OEC as a heretic? How about Dr. Walter Kaiser? Gleason Archer? Finis Jennings Dake? Dr. David Snoke? Dr. Hugh Ross, Dr. William Craig, C. I. Schofield, et al?
I believe that the Bible is true in its autographs, and I agree with Jesus, who said that the Scriptures cannot be broken and that every jot and tittle would be fulfilled. On the other hand, I don't think there are inconsistencies between what we find in the Bible and what we will find outside of the Bible. The heavens and the earth are declaring the glory of God.

That said, geologically, if the world was created formless, then it could not rotate, and if a day is defined as a full rotation of the earth, then it is possible that the first few days may have been longer than 24 hours, in fact millions of years each. So I am not opposed to an earth that is as much as a billion years old. And if the evidence showed otherwise, I would only have good reason to disbelieve it if it was inconsistent with the Scriptures, which I believe.

Even when the fish were created prior to landmasses, the formlessness may have continued so that up to the fourth "day" the period of a day may have been counted much longer than 24 hours. But once there were landmasses, the notion of formlessness disappears and the excuse for making a gap disappears along with it.

Beyond that, one might say the observability of the lights in the heavens that were for signs only became possible after the creation of man. But then why also count the first five days as days? And wasn't God there to observe these things? So I would discount observability as an excuse for continuing a gap theory, though it is still quite possible that the earth initially rotated much more slowly than it now does, even while plants were being formed on the land.

The idea of a gap helps explain old rocks and possibly some fossilized plants found in them, but the generations given from Adam are another matter. The whole race is thought to descend from Adam, who was created on the sixth day, whenever that was.Therefore there can be no "PreAdamic" temple building except by non-humans without running into Biblical errancy. So my opinion concerning any of these writers you mentioned is that they are not Biblcial literalists if they do not believe that the whole human race was descended from Adam.

Is a person a heretic if they are not a Biblical literalist? Depends on how one defines heresy. Those who espouse various gap theories do so in order to preserve the Bible as true, which they revere. So there is a tendency, at the least, for them to believe in the Bible throughout and with some clever input, while taking into account the findings of archeologists and paleontologists and geologists, etc., as well. And that is reasonable. But there are many who take the Bible seriously and even literally who are also heretics. We can read Ireneus' Against Heresies just for an initial dose. And the list will go on endlessly.

My own opinion is that it is possible that the dating given, especially for the patriarchs, may have error in the copy though not the autographs. There are definitely differences between the MT and the LXX. Augustine and others noticed them.

That means that "PreAdamic" may be a misnomer when it comes to looking at something dating back to the year 9000 BCE.

On the other hand, Luke recounts the genealogy from Jesus through Adam. So if we take an older date for the birth of Adam than the estimated approximately 6000 years we are looking at in available texts, then to stretch the dating back all the way to 10,000 BCE requires expanding the lifespans of some number of these patriarchs beyond the already very long ages our copies have retained.

Then again, Luke says "supposedly" and this is a legal term, which simply means that is how it was on the books of his day, which is the basis Africanus gives for the discrepancies between Matthew and Luke, showing that both accounts were true. In other words, Luke gives the legal genealogy, where Matthew gives the actual genealogy. And Matthew gives the genealogy only to Abraham. Therefore, if anyone is looking for "smudge room" between the findings of anthropologists and archeologists and Biblical accounts, I think the best place to find it is in the idea that the copy deteriorated with respect to the ages of the patriarchs up until Abraham. That way they won't be in conflict with Matthew or Luke. Either there were more generations than were recorded, or the patriarchs lived longer than was recorded. We can then attribute any problems to Genesis itself, especially Genesis 5, which we already know to have textual problems with respect to copy.

What any of these people you mentioned think doesn't matter to me. I am not associated with any of them. This is my opinion, though all that said, I remain unconvinced that the archeologists are basing their opinions on the right assumptions. I will unabashedly admit that I am more comfortable with basing my understanding of science on scripture, than my scripture on science. And even with respect to the ages of the patriarchs up to Abraham if asked to decide on longer or shorter dates, or more patriarchs just omitted, in order to allow for an older date for the birth of Adam, I'd guess that the Masoretic Text is probably reliable. (In other cases I might prefer the Greek - just not here).

As for modern science, I am inclined to think that this is one of the culprits of the spirit of antichrist that changes times and law. The effect of it is to force people into very creative thinking in order to continue to maintain that the Bible is true, whether that be by gap theories or any of what I mentioned above. The result is that very few people believe in the Bible any more. And that is certainly consistent with the devil's agenda.

I also think that Jesus Himself, being the Truth and the Word made flesh, could easily have addressed this type of discrepancy if it had existed. At the least He could have said, "by the way, there are errors in this copy that were created by the devil." Or He may have said "and I only mentioned to Moses those patriarchs whose names are written in the book of life." And this may actually have been something He said, but we have no record of Him having said that through the apostles. Yet He, being God, is omniscient. And the result is, that He foresaw we would be having this discussion today.

Apparently then, Jesus was entirely comfortable with our being left with these questions. What should we do about them? For me, the best solution is to get comfortable with the fact that there is smudge room in all that I've mentioned above. It may well be that only those patriarchs whose names are written in the book of life were mentioned in the original autographs of Scripture. Maybe there were seven generations of faithful believers between Adam and Enoch, but seventy generations of non believers between them, as well. The Bible asks us not to lean on our own understanding but to trust and acknowledge the Lord in all our ways. So my answer is that I don't know.

But as for dates and places, these are portrayed in Scripture not as allegory and poetry, but as inventories of reality. Just read Numbers and Leviticus/ The style suggests a literal interpretation is appropriate. And the apostles and early fathers of the church, as well as the Jews who lived before them all accepted literal interpretations of the Bible for that reason. It wasn't until geology and archeology started to show contradictions that Christians began forming these gap theories, not excluding Christian Darwinism.

In Christian Darwinism an unidentified period is given for each of the days. And the order followed in the Genesis creation account follows the same order given by Darwin in the theory of evolution. It would then make sense to accept a "PreAdamic" temple because no one would claim that Adam was the first born human being, or we could perhaps agree with those who maintain that prior to Adam the others were of another species. And this would not be inconsistent with the theory that the Bible only counted those who were believers whose names were to be written in the book of life. And that God created Adam from the dust of the earth could be understood as a summary of Darwinian evolution.

Well fine. Maybe that is possible. But I have no record of Jesus ever saying anything about it. So either it just doesn't matter, which is what those who espouse this theory say, or it does. I think that it matters because not only does it effect our hermeneutics, but it effects our theology. If we believe that man ascended from animals over many millions of years then we get a very different picture of who God is. We may conclude from such a picture that the resurrection is actually not like a new creation that happens all of a sudden ex nihilo, but will take another gazillion years to recycle naturally. We may even reject all that is supernatural and the entirety of the power of God.

Belief in evolution seems to seriously effect theology, and soteriology as well. The resurrection of Christ did not happen over millions of years, did it? No, it happened quite supernaturally on the third day, in a way that demonstrated the already understood power of God (for those who believed), because it was a sign of the new creation. If the new creation recapitulates the old creation, not only does it arise from the power of God, it takes place on the first day of the week, as a deliberate anti-type of Genesis 1 so that Christ fulfills the Sabbath Law, showing that the Law is perfect.

A smudged creation account results in a smudged resurrection account and a smudged future restoration of all things. And that pretty much sums up why I am more comfortable just accepting the MT as is on Genesis 5 and rejecting various gap and smudge theories. Does this make those who disagree with me heretics? Hmmmm. Yes and no. Yes, if heresy is defined as being in error in any way shape or form. And if that is the case, we are all heretics except God. No, if heresy is defined as relating only to Christology. Soteriology is akin to Christology and is somewhat effected by old earth creation beliefs. But it is not utterly destroyed by it when it gets smudged. The types and anti-types remain the same. However, there are dangers. If we do not take the types literally, then we may not wish to take the anti-types literally.

This may lead to people accepting the mark of the beast, rationalizing that such warnings were not meant to be accepted literally. It may also result, as it so often has, in disbelief in the resurrection, on the one hand, and a belief in deism, on the other. A rejection of the incarnation of Christ, and spiritualizing of Christ is also a possibility. Once one thing is rejected in Scripture, the principle is injected that allows the whole thing to be sliced and diced according to preference. Ultimately, each man does what is right in his own eyes. Smudge an inch and they take a mile. But dangers and heresies are still two different things.
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James
... and the greatest of these is love.
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"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." (John 13:34-35)
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archeology, creation mythology, eschatology, noah's flood, prophecy


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