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  #1  
Old 17th August 2010, 05:20 PM
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Is god willing to prevent evil but not able to?

or is he able but not willing?
suppose he could be both able and willing... maybe?
or maybe he's neither willing nor able?

anyone know?
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  #2  
Old 17th August 2010, 05:54 PM
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The way I see it is that God could but sees it as more of an evil to intervene than to allow humans to choose between good and bad. If God prevented us from doing bad then by definition no-one could ever choose good, which (in the eyes of God I guess) is seen as worse than a load of people being forced into goodness.

I don't read it as a historical story, but Noah and the Flood, God stopped the bad, and felt so bad for having done so.

Not the best response I know but that's the way I view it (and am able to express what I understand :S).
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  #3  
Old 17th August 2010, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DwarfJuggler View Post
or is he able but not willing?
suppose he could be both able and willing... maybe?
or maybe he's neither willing nor able?

anyone know?
God gave us free will, which means we are free to bless God or to curse God, to do as God commands or to ignore God and do as we will.

Let's say I have a big stick and decide to hit you with it. That's an evil thing, and as a result of my evil you will suffer. So we might ask why God allows evil, why God allows suffering. From your perspective the evil and suffering are very real.

But the only way God can prevent that suffering is to deny my freedom to use the big stick in the first place. If we expect God to override our free will to make sure we never make the wrong decision, of what value is that free will in the first place? We weren't made as some kind of automated being that simply follow whatever the programming tells us, we were made as sentient beings with the freedom to choose.

We could also argue that perhaps God should intervene to prevent the greatest evils, and it's easy to make an emotional argument that God should prevent rape, genocide and the like. But that only raises the question of how much evil God should permit - if all of the most heinous crimes were eliminated because God prevented them we'd just be up in arms expecting God to prevent the things that just been moved up to the top of the "evil list". And before long we'd be right back with nobody having free will in case we did anything a little bit nasty to someone else.

So ultimately it comes back to us. We can choose to do good, or we can choose to do evil, and either decision has consequences.
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Old 17th August 2010, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by DwarfJuggler View Post
or is he able but not willing?
suppose he could be both able and willing... maybe?
or maybe he's neither willing nor able?

anyone know?
LOL!!! The Epicurius so called philosophical problem of evil. It's been refuted a few times.

BTW- God merely allows evil. It's part of His plan. Factor that into the syllogism and it falls apart.
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  #5  
Old 17th August 2010, 07:38 PM
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you noticed the quote hentenza nice .

But in this case the quote would mean he's able but not willing...
But to stop someone from doing evil is to violate their free will which he can't do...
and if he can't do it then he's not omnipotent.

I like the quote fits well .

But if you have references to how it's been refuted I'd be more than happy to read em.

for those of you that don't know the full quote or don't want to bother to google epicurius's quote...

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God.
~Epicurus.

Also just a random thought, do you at all support the separation of church and state?
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  #6  
Old 17th August 2010, 08:40 PM
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[quote]
Originally Posted by DwarfJuggler View Post
you noticed the quote hentenza nice .
Yea, seen it a few times.

But in this case the quote would mean he's able but not willing...
But to stop someone from doing evil is to violate their free will which he can't do...
and if he can't do it then he's not omnipotent.
But you are dismissing the obvious. God uses evil to do His will. Is part of His plan, therefore, He doesn't have the conundrum of free will. He is not either willing nor unwilling to stop evil. When He will stop evil is prophesied in scripture. We, mankind, are perfectly capable of messing it up without any help until then. lol


But if you have references to how it's been refuted I'd be more than happy to read em.
Mmm....there has been tons of threads about this in this site. It's easy to just search for one (search feature top right on the blue task bar).


Also just a random thought, do you at all support the separation of church and state?
I do, but I am still an American and do my civil duty (vote).

BTW- Welcome to CF!!
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  #7  
Old 17th August 2010, 09:27 PM
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"But you are dismissing the obvious. God uses evil to do His will. Is part of His plan, therefore, He doesn't have the conundrum of free will. He is not either willing nor unwilling to stop evil. When He will stop evil is prophesied in scripture. We, mankind, are perfectly capable of messing it up without any help until then. lol"

For him to "do" anything though would be a violation of free will.
Also when did the idea of "free will" come about in the bible specifically. If it was right from the start then the bible is riddled with god intervening on free will numerous times, just in genesis. While this does make god more omnipotent if he's able to violate free will when he chooses, it hardly makes him empathetic if he's willing to allow evil just to be elusive on the idea of free will.

And ty to the welcome . I'm sure I'll stir some commotion with some people unintentionally but where better to get information and view points if not through a debate.

Last edited by DwarfJuggler; 17th August 2010 at 09:28 PM. Reason: Forgot to say ty for the welcome GASP! :)
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Old 17th August 2010, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by DwarfJuggler View Post
For him to "do" anything though would be a violation of free will.
Nah, you are taking this where it doesn't need to be. Again, there is nothing that He needs to do since it is all in His plan.


Also when did the idea of "free will" come about in the bible specifically.
It's implied. Personally, I don't believe the bible teaches libertarian free will though.


If it was right from the start then the bible is riddled with god intervening on free will numerous times, just in genesis. While this does make god more omnipotent if he's able to violate free will when he chooses, it hardly makes him empathetic if he's willing to allow evil just to be elusive on the idea of free will.
I think, correct me if I'm wrong, that you believe that to be omnipotent means to exert said omnipotence 100% of the time. In other words you believe that one is either omnipotent or not. No in between or possibility any other option. However, If He is omnipotent then He also has the power to intercede in what He pleases. In other words, God has the free will to exert His omnipotence as He pleases. For example, you have a top sports car with the potential of a top speed of 150mph. The potentiality (as an actual attribute) of having a top speed of 150 mph remains whether you drive at a speed of 50 mph or 100 mph or max it out at 150 mph.

And ty to the welcome . I'm sure I'll stir some commotion with some people unintentionally but where better to get information and view points if not through a debate.
Nah, just be considerate and follow the posting rules. We've heard just about every question you guys can dish out though.
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Last edited by Hentenza; 17th August 2010 at 10:11 PM.
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  #9  
Old 17th August 2010, 10:22 PM
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Different angle from Hentenza:

Originally Posted by DwarfJuggler View Post
For him to "do" anything though would be a violation of free will.
1. You're COMPLETELY overlooking the fact that G-d gave man dominion. do you know what that means? Have you considered it?

2. G-d NEVER violated free will. Not once! Rather, we ALWAYS see G-d respecting man's dominion; although it only takes ONE man.
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Old 17th August 2010, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by razeontherock View Post
Different angle from Hentenza:



1. You're COMPLETELY overlooking the fact that G-d gave man dominion. do you know what that means? Have you considered it?

2. G-d NEVER violated free will. Not once! Rather, we ALWAYS see G-d respecting man's dominion; although it only takes ONE man.
So when the village of sodom wanted to sleep with those men, god was respecting man's dominion by torching them alive?

So when (can't remember his name off the top of my head.. orne? ornan?) was choosing to ejaculate onto the floor rather than impregnate his brothers wife, and was put to death. This was god respecting man's dominion and not intervening? He violated the man's choice not to impregnate her.

This is just within genesis. I've yet to tackle the other passages. Heck he killed that man's brother to. And tried to kill moses. There is lots of death that god did. So why is this idea of free will not being violated around?

I can understand if perhaps the new testament he's apparently not as spiteful and controlling as old. But if this were the case why aren't we letting out all the prisoners on the chance that they will learn their lesson and be kind? Because we know that it won't happen, there filled with "demons" and need to be retrained on the ways of society... mind you I think our current prison system is a joke but so be it...

and if i remember correctly it mentions that god is unchanging. So why is it we don't have miracles freeing people, not just 1 or 2, but whole groups much like moses and his flock. Although I'm quick to don the theist hat when it comes to a statement like this and imagine the answers. such as a plane able to land safely on the water and save it's passengers is a miracle... I'd say otherwise. They had the skill and training to prepare them for the situation.

also hentenza. You're entering the realm of the paradox with the omnipotent idea. If god were to make a rock so heavy he could not lift it that would rule out his ability to be omnipotent. And if he were not able to make said rock so heavy he could not lift it then he would not be able to. Which again rules out omnipotent. So if he is able allegedly but not willing to do, or rather dons the wait and see mindset. He doesn't overly care about intervening and say perform miracles such as... stirring an african revolution creating prosperity in the land and ending famine while considerably increasing their medical abilities to knock out a huge % of aids spreading with in.
But again for him to do this he would have to violate free will by getting the people to stand up to their government. Or perhaps directing tiny asteroids to pepper their government officials to death. By definition what ever god does is a violation of his free will claim. Which applying rules onto oneself is preventing you from doing something. Much in the same that someone wanting to lose weight may prevent themselves from eating cheese cake. To lose weight in their mind they're not able to eat cheesecake. To allow free will in god's mind he wouldn't be able to intervene. And not being able again rules out omnipotence.

(thought of more to say on the topic lol...)

And if he were to suddenly change his mind and perform miracles much like that of the biblical stories. Then we'd have God changing. Which apparently God claimed he does not change, which no disrespect would mean god kind of psychotic as he is quick to punish and kill but seems kind and loving elsewhere. It's almost like there's no consistency with the mentality of this omnipotent being. So to say god is a being of love is invalidated when you consider the past events god has done onto man. Like wise to say he's a spiteful vengeful god is invalid as well for the moments he seems to be loving.

Last edited by DwarfJuggler; 18th August 2010 at 12:04 AM. Reason: was talking about paradoxs and miracles for hentenza.
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