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  #1  
Old 13th July 2010, 02:31 AM
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Does God already know if we are going to Heaven or Hell? My answer is no.

First lets get a couple of things out of the way. God is all omniscent(all knowing, and can know the future). The Bible says God is all knowing, and I believe what the Bible says, and the Bible has plenty examples of God knowing the future. So I am not at all debating either of those points.

The Bible also clearly shows that God can choose not to use his ominiscence to know the future, and instead allow man total free will. Lets look at Genesis 6:5-7, and also Luke 2:52.

5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.- Genesis 6:5-7 NKJV

Now Genesis 6:5-7 says God was sorry he had made man. I will destroy man from the face of the earth for I am sorry that I have made man. Man had become so wicked that God was sorry he had ever made man. We also know God is a holy, and did not create man to become evil.

This verse clearly shows that God had chose not to use his omniscence to know man would become so very wicked. God was sorry he had even made man. God had allowed man to have total free will in what man would become instead of using omniscence to know, and set the future.

Now lets also look at Luke 2:52

52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.- Luke 2:52 NKJV

This verse clearly show Jesus(who is part of the Godhead) not using His ominscience while he was on earth. As it said he grew in wisdom. He increased in wisdom as he grewed up, and was not using him ominscience. So again we see God choosing not to use ominscience.

Finally lets go to Philippines 2:12. One of many verses that talk about us having free will when it coems to our salvation(going to Heave or Hell).

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling- Philippians 2:12

Philippians 2:12 tells us to work out our salvation with fear, and trembling. We have to work out our own salvation it is not predetermined for us. We have total free will either to accept Jesus as our Lord, and Savior or to reject Him.

This also shows once saved, always saved is a false doctrine. Because to work out our own salvation denotes a continuous action. We cann't just get saved, and then do whatever we want do, and expect to keep our salvation. We have Free Will to choose if we want to continue to serving God after we get save or backslide, and go to hell.

So this is how I understand how Omniscence, and Free Will works according to the Bible. God is all powerful, and all knowing, and can know, and set the future whenever he chooses(such as the Book of Revelation he has already set the end in stone), but he can also choose not to use his omniscence to set the set the future, and instead give us total free will in weather we accept Jesus, and go to Heaven or reject him, and go to Hell.
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  #2  
Old 13th July 2010, 03:07 AM
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Who do you think writes all the names in the Book of Life? (lol, please don't take that as snide.)

My answer is yes, but he doesn't interfere, and it breaks his heart.

i.e. you say God chooses not to know. I say he absolutely knows, but chooses not to act, other than the act of fulfillment of the law - the Gospel of Christ.

Let's look at the passage from Genesis 6. God's omniscience is not confined by time, however, man's actions certainly are. so, the question is, did God see the wickedness of man only when it happened, or from the beginning? If from the beginning, this only means God let man descend into depravity despite his purpose, and yet would still continue to work creation toward his purpose.

The bit from Luke is not analogous with the omniscience of God the Father. I think it's not that Jesus wasn't using his omniscience, but that the flesh could not accommodate all the faculties of the invisible God.

As for insured salvation (for lack of a better term) versus a salvation that could be lost, I'd rather keep it separate from the other argument. That being said, I urge you to study Romans for the full context of Paul's gospel of salvation. Then, we can figure out what Paul means by working out your own salvation....
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  #3  
Old 13th July 2010, 04:10 AM
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Genesis 6:6-7 Clearly says that God was sorry that he had made man because they had become so wicked. In fact it says it twice. God regretted making man so much that he destroyed everybody except Noah.

Also God is a HOLY God he did not create man knowingly to be come evil, and Genesis 6:6-7 makes that clear because it says God was sorry that he had created man. He regretted creating man.

Yes God does write our names in the Book of Life, but that has nothing to do with the subject in this topic.

If you really believed that God already knows if you are going to Heaven or to Hell then it would be pointless weather you chose to serve God or not since your future has already been set, adn serving God or not wouldn't change it since it would already be set.

So IF God already knows who is going to Heaven or Hell then Philippians 12: 2 which says to work out your own salvation with fear, and trembling would have no meaning then.

If wouldn't matter if you served God or not if it has already been determined weather your going to Heaven or Hell.

I believe we have Free Will to choose to serve Jesus and go to heaven or reject Jesus and go to Hell. its not something that God has already predetermined for us. We have our free will to make that chose.

As far as Luke 2:52 I was using that as another example along with Genesis 6:6-7 that God can choose not to use his omnicience, and can instead allow us to totally use our own free will.

Now certainly there are somethings that God has already predetermind such as the Book of Revelation. Everything in that book is set in stone. Nothing can change it no matter what there is no Free Will in that matter.

Last edited by dennis580; 13th July 2010 at 04:18 AM.
  #4  
Old 13th July 2010, 04:25 AM
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My answer is yes...the parable of the wheat and the tares tells us this. He has planted the wheat and it's the wheat that will be harvested. He knows who are His.
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Old 13th July 2010, 04:25 AM
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Lets also look at Jeremiah 17:10

I, the LORD, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give every man according to his ways,
According to the fruit of his doings.- jeremiah 17:10


If God had chosen to already know all of our decisions then there would be no need for Him to search the heart or test the mind.
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Old 13th July 2010, 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Cassidy View Post
My answer is yes...the parable of the wheat and the tares tells us this. He has planted the wheat and it's the wheat that will be harvested. He knows who are His.
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

2 peter 3:9 tells us that God is not willing that any should perish. He wants ALL to come to repentence.

So God's plan is for EVERBODY to go to Heaven. He wants ALL to come to repentence, but we have FREE WILL weather to follow God's Plan, and except jesus and go to Heaven or to reject Jesus, and go to Hell, but God's will, and plan is for ALL to come to repentence, but each of us has Free Will weather to accept God's plan or not.
  #7  
Old 13th July 2010, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by dennis580 View Post
Finally lets go to Philippines 2:12. One of many verses that talk about us having free will when it coems to our salvation(going to Heave or Hell).

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling- Philippians 2:12

Philippians 2:12 tells us to work out our salvation with fear, and trembling. We have to work out our own salvation it is not predetermined for us. We have total free will either to accept Jesus as our Lord, and Savior or to reject Him.

This also shows once saved, always saved is a false doctrine. Because to work out our own salvation denotes a continuous action. We cann't just get saved, and then do whatever we want do, and expect to keep our salvation. We have Free Will to choose if we want to continue to serving God after we get save or backslide, and go to hell.
That verse isn't sitting off is space somewhere by itself as if it was open to any whim of intrepretation. It has a context, which you ripped it out of to make a point. In that context, it does not say what you are telling us it says.

A main point of the entire book of Philippians is the perseverence of the saints, not for the goal of salvation maitenance, but rather to "press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus" (Phil 3:14), something that Paul himself did not even claim to have attained yet (v.12)

This was written to people that Paul declares they are alrealy citizens of Heaven (3:20), not hopefully to one day become citizens. And also begins by greeting them with assurence that God is faithful to finish the work started in Him, "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." (Phil 1:6)

You should probably study 1 John for a while as well, because those things are written so we would "know", not hope, we have eternal life (1 Jo 5:13). Just a thought.



I'll leave you with this (because I have to go to work now). It shows He knew us who would be saved from the beginning.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Eph 1:3-6
That's why the scripture states the Lamb was slain before the foundations of the world (Rev 13:8), because the fall of man was known and so was the redemption of man through Jesus, who was made manifest to us in flesh for that purpose, as Peter states:
"He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God." 1 Peter 1:20-21
  #8  
Old 13th July 2010, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by dennis580 View Post
The Bible also clearly shows that God can choose not to use his ominiscence to know the future, and instead allow man total free will.
Saying that God knows the future, but chooses not to access that knowledge doesn't solve problems about free will at all.

Lets look at Genesis 6:5-7, and also Luke 2:52.

5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.- Genesis 6:5-7 NKJV

Now Genesis 6:5-7 says God was sorry he had made man. I will destroy man from the face of the earth for I am sorry that I have made man. Man had become so wicked that God was sorry he had ever made man. We also know God is a holy, and did not create man to become evil.

This verse clearly shows that God had chose not to use his omniscence to know man would become so very wicked. God was sorry he had even made man. God had allowed man to have total free will in what man would become instead of using omniscence to know, and set the future.
I don't see how this verse demonstrates what you want it to. First, it doesn't say anything about God's knowledge. Second, knowing something doesn't mean you can't be grieved or be sorry. Third, the author of this piece of text isn't intending to comment on God's knowledge.


Now lets also look at Luke 2:52

52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.- Luke 2:52 NKJV

This verse clearly show Jesus(who is part of the Godhead) not using His ominscience while he was on earth. As it said he grew in wisdom. He increased in wisdom as he grewed up, and was not using him ominscience. So again we see God choosing not to use ominscience.
Don't ignore the fact that Jesus was a man. It makes perfect sense for him to grow in wisdom and stature. Another thing to consider is that Luke is just offering a summary here in order to transition to Jesus' public career, and so the comment isn't meant to be understood in any way other than what Luke intended.

Finally lets go to Philippines 2:12. One of many verses that talk about us having free will when it coems to our salvation(going to Heave or Hell).

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling- Philippians 2:12

Philippians 2:12 tells us to work out our salvation with fear, and trembling. We have to work out our own salvation it is not predetermined for us. We have total free will either to accept Jesus as our Lord, and Savior or to reject Him.
I think by saying "work out", he's saying to practice/exercise/perform your faith with reverence and awe, which makes sense given everything he just said about Jesus and everything he goes on to instruct about how to exercise your faith. I don't see it saying what you want it to. It certainly doesn't say anything about God choosing or not-choosing to access knowledge. And it doesn't say that people are 'working out' as in 'arranging'/'setting up' their own salvation. The picture is that Paul's audience is already made up of believers and so they are to behave appropriately, not that they aren't really believers yet and so have to arrange their salvation or that they are to be afraid to the point of shaking because they might lose their salvation.

This also shows once saved, always saved is a false doctrine. Because to work out our own salvation denotes a continuous action. We cann't just get saved, and then do whatever we want do, and expect to keep our salvation.
Does anyone who affirms OSAS really think that that means they can go do whatever they want? I keep hearing this mantra from people, but I've never met anyone who actually believes that people can go do whatever they want.

So this is how I understand how Omniscence, and Free Will works according to the Bible. God is all powerful, and all knowing, and can know, and set the future whenever he chooses(such as the Book of Revelation he has already set the end in stone), but he can also choose not to use his omniscence to set the set the future, and instead give us total free will in weather we accept Jesus, and go to Heaven or reject him, and go to Hell.
There are many problems here, I will start with a few. First, it would be God's power that He uses to fix the future, if that's what He indeed does. Merely knowing the future or knowing how to set the future doesn't mean God has done so. God must act to do that. Second, if God didn't know who would reject Jesus, it's hard to see how He planned for the crucifixion. Third, if you say that God can access knowledge about what is going to happen in the future, but chooses not to, then presumably His ability to do this means that the future is already set, otherwise He wouldn't be able to access knowledge about it. Presumably, even if He ignores the knowledge, He can still know everyone who is going to accept Jesus. It's not a matter of whether or not the future is fixed, because on your view it MUST be. Your view is only a matter of what God chooses to know about events that are going to happen in the future. Fourth, I'm feeling certain other verses neglected that indicates the opposite of what you say, such as God knowing who the saved are/will be, even before they are actually saved.

A fifth problem has to do with epistemology, and there are several problems in this area, I will give only one right now. It's hard to see how anyone can actually know something but choose not to access that knoweldge. Can I know the solution to 2+2 but choose to not-know the solution to 2+2? If you ask me the answer, can I ever honestly say "I don't know"? Can I choose not acess knowledge of my mother even though I know her? If she says hi to me, can I really ever say "who are you"? I think people who know something yet choose not to access the knowledge are classified as having some mental defect such as cognitive dissonance. I'm not quite sure there is any such thing as someone who knows something but chooses not to access that knowledge, since I think having knowledge about X requires one to be in a positive mental state about X, such as believing that X is true and/or being aware that X. But being in a positive mental state, such as being aware of or believing, means that one cannot know X but not access the knowledge. Choosing not to access that knowledge would require one to cease being in a positive mental state, such as believing. But once one stops believing that X is true, then it's no longer the case that someone knows that X is true.

For God, it seems that either He knows or doesn't know something. It doens't seem to be the case that He can know but not access the knowledge since doing so would put Him in a state of not-knowing. For any future event X, if God knows that X is true, then it's the case that God IS in a positive mental state about X - namely, believing that X is true. By definition, He cannot choose to not access facts that He holds in a positive mental state simply because He's already in a positive mental state about those facts. At least, not without showing some sort of serious cognitive defect.
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Old 13th July 2010, 09:51 AM
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To answer the OP: Yes.
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Old 13th July 2010, 09:52 AM
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disciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond repute
disciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond reputedisciple-ofjesus has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by LeadWorship View Post
To answer the OP: Yes.
exactly. Yes, God knows. He is outside of time, knows the beginning from the end, who will come to Him, who won't. He is ALL wise.
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