Home | Be a Christian | Devotionals | Join Us! | Forums | Rules | F.A.Q.


Go Back   Christian Forums > Theology (orthodox Christians only) > Theology (orthodox Christians only) > General Theology > Salvation (Soteriology)
Register BlogsPrayersJobsArcade Calendar Mark Forums Read

Salvation (Soteriology) The forum to discuss the theological doctrine of salvation.

Reply
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Unread 7th June 2010, 02:02 PM
Dark_Lite's Avatar
Chewbacha

Faith: Catholic Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 15th February 2002
Posts: 17,096
Blessings: 46,143,725
Reps: 1,238,051,283,267,514,112 (power: 1,238,051,283,267,544)
Dark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond repute
Dark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond repute
Draw != force.
__________________

__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Client-side CF enhancements for Google Chrome. Now with [bible=tag]power[/bible].

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Read CF in your mobile web browser. For all kinds of devices.
Reply With Quote
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!

  #12  
Unread 7th June 2010, 02:21 PM
Senior Veteran

Gender: Male Faith: Calvinist Country: United States Member For 4 Years
 
Join Date: 16th March 2010
Posts: 3,134
Blessings: 1,274,451
Reps: 316,908,273,105,126,528 (power: 0)
anthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond repute
anthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Dark_Lite View Post
Draw != force.
No it does not. You obviously have not looked up the word for its metaphorical definition.

It is the greek word
helkō


to draw, drag off

2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

The Father or Christ leads them. Jesus said of His Sheep Jn 10:3

To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

The sheep are not being forced, they are being led by His voice.

You need to study more.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #13  
Unread 7th June 2010, 03:09 PM
Dark_Lite's Avatar
Chewbacha

Faith: Catholic Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 15th February 2002
Posts: 17,096
Blessings: 46,143,725
Reps: 1,238,051,283,267,514,112 (power: 1,238,051,283,267,544)
Dark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond repute
Dark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond reputeDark_Lite has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by anthony55 View Post
No it does not. You obviously have not looked up the word for its metaphorical definition.

It is the greek word
helkō


to draw, drag off

2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

The Father or Christ leads them. Jesus said of His Sheep Jn 10:3

To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

The sheep are not being forced, they are being led by His voice.

You need to study more.
!= means does not equal.
__________________

__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Client-side CF enhancements for Google Chrome. Now with [bible=tag]power[/bible].

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Read CF in your mobile web browser. For all kinds of devices.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Unread 7th June 2010, 03:48 PM
Charis kai Dunamis's Avatar
χάρις καὶ δύναμις

30 Gender: Male Married Faith: Protestant Country: United States Member For 5 Years Steward
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 4th December 2006
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 3,685
Blessings: 23,218,389
Reps: 380,347,685,811,724,480 (power: 380,347,685,811,736)
Charis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond repute
Charis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond repute
Post removed
__________________

__________________
I fall on my knees before the Lord God of heaven and earth, and wish to earnestly praise Him with my life for the loving kindness He hath shewn us in Christ Jesus, in that He took the form of a bond servant and emptied Himself, and died the death of a sinner. It was Him who knew no sin, yet He became sin on our behalf that we may have our sins atoned for and be clothed with His righteousness, being justifed before God the Father with none to bring accusation against us. Therefore, I am forever in debt to Him, and regard all things as rubbish but that of which is done by the power of the Holy Spirit working in me, by which I praise my Father and my Lord from the depths of my heart. Praise be to our Lord forever and ever!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Unread 7th June 2010, 04:42 PM
Legend

Gender: Male Faith: Christian Country: United States Member For 4 Years Tentmaker
 
Join Date: 24th May 2010
Location: WI
Posts: 26,562
Blessings: 1,535,859
My Mood Thankful
Reps: 4,446,822,502,958,666,752 (power: 0)
razeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond repute
razeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond reputerazeontherock has a reputation beyond repute
Ok, this is reasonable discussion:

Originally Posted by Jesusfreak5000 View Post
Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Most Calvinists point to this as being a proof of monergism; God must draw the individual first before he can come to Christ. Now the typical rebuttal is to immediately run to John 12:32, where it says: Jhn 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." And the synergist says "See! He draws all men!" And I am going to prove this line of reasoning as false, right here and now.

let's jump back to John 12:32. If ἕλκω defines God as drawing men, by Himself, with no help or struggle in either direction, then wouldn't John 12:32 be saying that God was going to save all men, since He would be drawing all men to Himself?

There is a slight problem here (apart from Universalism). The passages are being falsely equated. Who is doing the drawing in John 6?

Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

The Father is drawing.

Jhn 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

Jesus is drawing.

Right here, you have two different statements. They cannot be equated.

It is clear that what is meant here are two different drawings. We Calvinists would still affirm that John 6 is teaching Monergism, and more specifically, monergistic regeneration. But from the context, John 12:32 can be spelled out very specifically in opposition to the synergists, now that we have established a few things.

It shows that synergists cannot reconcile what Jesus has taught, and are in a desperate scramble to preserve their supposed free will.
I've never encountered your terms monergism / synergists. Is it as simple as what is apparent from context? Anyway, the problem I see with your whole line of reasoning is you overlook that Jesus does nothing of Himself. He would not draw anyone the Father does not draw, so your foundation here appears to be gone. I think this has everything to do with Him being Faithful, tested, and proven Worthy; made both Lord and Christ. Baby Jesus was neither. W/o Holy Ghost, too.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #16  
Unread 7th June 2010, 04:54 PM
Charis kai Dunamis's Avatar
χάρις καὶ δύναμις

30 Gender: Male Married Faith: Protestant Country: United States Member For 5 Years Steward
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 4th December 2006
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 3,685
Blessings: 23,218,389
Reps: 380,347,685,811,724,480 (power: 380,347,685,811,736)
Charis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond repute
Charis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by razeontherock View Post
Ok, this is reasonable discussion:



I've never encountered your terms monergism / synergists. Is it as simple as what is apparent from context? Anyway, the problem I see with your whole line of reasoning is you overlook that Jesus does nothing of Himself. He would not draw anyone the Father does not draw, so your foundation here appears to be gone. I think this has everything to do with Him being Faithful, tested, and proven Worthy; made both Lord and Christ. Baby Jesus was neither. W/o Holy Ghost, too.
In the end, I do find them to be the same drawing. Christ will not draw men whom the Father does not draw. But that is not my point. What I am saying is that there are two different types of drawing, one being general, and one being specific. The drawing by Christ is for all types of men, Jew or Gentile, that being specified by the context. The drawing by the Father, however, as mentioned in John 6, is intended towards specific individuals. No one can come to the Christ unless the Father draws them, including your Aunt Sally or Uncle Eddy.

See my point?
__________________

__________________
I fall on my knees before the Lord God of heaven and earth, and wish to earnestly praise Him with my life for the loving kindness He hath shewn us in Christ Jesus, in that He took the form of a bond servant and emptied Himself, and died the death of a sinner. It was Him who knew no sin, yet He became sin on our behalf that we may have our sins atoned for and be clothed with His righteousness, being justifed before God the Father with none to bring accusation against us. Therefore, I am forever in debt to Him, and regard all things as rubbish but that of which is done by the power of the Holy Spirit working in me, by which I praise my Father and my Lord from the depths of my heart. Praise be to our Lord forever and ever!
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Unread 7th June 2010, 05:52 PM
Contributor

Gender: Male Faith: Christian Country: United States Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 28th October 2004
Location: California
Posts: 8,902
Blessings: 336,072
My Mood Joyful
Reps: 866,456,371,216,119 (power: 866,456,371,235)
Van has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond repute
Van has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond reputeVan has a reputation beyond repute
Yes another effort to support Calvinism without laying a foundation in scripture.

1) Draw only means to literally drag by compulsion according to Calvinism, yet draw seems to be used metaphorically to refer to presenting the gospel in an attractive way.

2) The claim that the only alternative to the Calvinism view of John 12:32 is Universalism. This of course is based on the fiction that John 6:44 says everyone the Father draws will be saved. But John 6:44 says No one can come to Me unless the Father draws Him, and I will raise Him up on the third day. The person being referred to as the one who comes to Him is the one that will be raised up, not every person drawn by a presentation of the gospel. See the problem, using the disputed definition of draw to support the argument that everyone drawn is saved.

Bottom line, neither verse says what Calvinism claims, John 12:32 does not say "draw all [kinds] of men" and John 6:44 does not say "Everyone drawn by the Father comes to Me."
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #18  
Unread 7th June 2010, 05:53 PM
Senior Veteran

Gender: Male Faith: Calvinist Country: United States Member For 4 Years
 
Join Date: 16th March 2010
Posts: 3,134
Blessings: 1,274,451
Reps: 316,908,273,105,126,528 (power: 0)
anthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond repute
anthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond reputeanthony55 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Dark_Lite View Post
!= means does not equal.
huh ?
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #19  
Unread 7th June 2010, 06:13 PM
Charis kai Dunamis's Avatar
χάρις καὶ δύναμις

30 Gender: Male Married Faith: Protestant Country: United States Member For 5 Years Steward
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 4th December 2006
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 3,685
Blessings: 23,218,389
Reps: 380,347,685,811,724,480 (power: 380,347,685,811,736)
Charis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond repute
Charis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond reputeCharis kai Dunamis has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Van View Post
Yes another effort to support Calvinism without laying a foundation in scripture.
I did lay a foundation of Scripture. You dispute my effort. But don't tell me I didn't lay a foundation because I surely did. There is more Scripture in my post than yours, and a more detailed explanation as well. If anyone's post is lacking support it is yours.

Originally Posted by Van View Post
1) Draw only means to literally drag by compulsion according to Calvinism, yet draw seems to be used metaphorically to refer to presenting the gospel in an attractive way.
Drag by compulsion? That is not the Calvinist view.

Originally Posted by Van View Post
2) The claim that the only alternative to the Calvinism view of John 12:32 is Universalism. This of course is based on the fiction that John 6:44 says everyone the Father draws will be saved. But John 6:44 says No one can come to Me unless the Father draws Him, and I will raise Him up on the third day. The person being referred to as the one who comes to Him is the one that will be raised up, not every person drawn by a presentation of the gospel. See the problem, using the disputed definition of draw to support the argument that everyone drawn is saved.
No, Jesus clearly says that the one who is drawn will be raised.

Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

There is no subjunctive, no possibility, no chance. The one comes, who must first be drawn, is raised. The one who comes has been granted by the Father, and Has been given by the Father to Christ.

Jhn 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

Originally Posted by Van View Post
Bottom line, neither verse says what Calvinism claims, John 12:32 does not say "draw all [kinds] of men" and John 6:44 does not say "Everyone drawn by the Father comes to Me."
John 12:32 certainly does say it, it is just not implicit, which is apparently the only thing that you will take as being proof.
Jhn 10:14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
Jhn 10:15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
Jhn 10:16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

Apparently Christ has sheep of another fold (the Gentiles), which have already been given to Him even though they have not come to Him. And the antithesis:

Jhn 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
Jhn 10:26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

It had not been granted of these, for they were not given to Christ. Thus, they did not believe. That is what John 6 teaches and John 10 teaches. If you still wish to take one verse out of context so you can deny the entire underlying premise, then I suppose you may continue. But I will make it clear to others here that you are doing so, and ultimately leading others away from what the text clearly says.
__________________

__________________
I fall on my knees before the Lord God of heaven and earth, and wish to earnestly praise Him with my life for the loving kindness He hath shewn us in Christ Jesus, in that He took the form of a bond servant and emptied Himself, and died the death of a sinner. It was Him who knew no sin, yet He became sin on our behalf that we may have our sins atoned for and be clothed with His righteousness, being justifed before God the Father with none to bring accusation against us. Therefore, I am forever in debt to Him, and regard all things as rubbish but that of which is done by the power of the Holy Spirit working in me, by which I praise my Father and my Lord from the depths of my heart. Praise be to our Lord forever and ever!
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Unread 7th June 2010, 06:39 PM
Thaeoles's Avatar
?

Gender: Male Faith: Calvinist Country: United States Member For 5 Years Watchman
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 19th January 2009
Location: America, one of the countries under God's passive Wrath
Posts: 1,265
Blessings: 1,264,848
My Mood Sneaky
Reps: 204,309,082,060,740,800 (power: 204,309,082,060,747)
Thaeoles has disabled reputation
Hmm... When I think of the word draw, it brings to mind the thought of casting nets as a fisherman. The fisherman casts out his net, then draws it back to himself, bringing in the fish. Like Jesus said of his disciples when he told them that they would be fishers of men. So, to proclaim the Gospel is like casting out the net, the net being a metaphorical Holy Spirit as it captures the "fish"; then the "fish" are drawn in. Do the fish choose to go into the net, or are they simply caught?
__________________

__________________
"Peace when possible, Truth at all costs." - Martin Luther

"For centuries, the State has cloaked its criminal activity in high-sounding rhetoric. For centuries the State has committed mass murder and called it 'war'; then ennobled the mass slaughter that 'war' involves. For centuries the State has robbed people at bayonet point and called it 'taxation'."
-Murray N. Rothbard
Reply With Quote
Reply


Return to Salvation (Soteriology)

Thread Tools
Display Modes


 
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:39 PM.