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  #1  
Old 16th May 2010, 01:57 AM
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Kiss What Does Romans 8:29 Mean?

What Does Romans 8:29 Mean?

Rom 8:29 (KJV) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Does this say that The Father was predestinated to be the Son. Making the Father into the Son?

Zotah
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  #2  
Old 16th May 2010, 09:28 AM
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28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestinedto be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he glorified.

The "whom" in your translation is "those whom" in others. It is a reference to those who are loved and called according to His purpose from v. 28.
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  #3  
Old 16th May 2010, 03:50 PM
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For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
The KJV has it limitations especially for those that speak modern English. Maybe that will help shed some light on the subject for you.

I don't really understand why so many people here are hung up on the KJV. That is nothing more than a translation from the original language yet many seem to think it it the only viable version of Gods word. How mistaken a view that is since the original is in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. So to understand what is said it is necessary to know how to read Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. So now do the Chinese, Guatamalian, Phillipine, Russian, etc read the bible in its original language or do they have a translation in their language? If it is in their language how does that jive with KJV? The translation that is the best is the one you can understand and the one that maintains its integrity to the original language.

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  #4  
Old 16th May 2010, 04:47 PM
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To better understand the issue of mss, see Jerusalem Blade's Posts
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  #5  
Old 17th May 2010, 08:55 AM
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The verse teaches that those who accept Christ are predestined to be made like Him. There is no predestination to accept Christ, to repent, or to believe, however.
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  #6  
Old 17th May 2010, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Vince53 View Post
The verse teaches that those who accept Christ are predestined to be made like Him. There is no predestination to accept Christ, to repent, or to believe, however.

How does one dead in sins and trespasses choose or accept Christ?
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  #7  
Old 17th May 2010, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Vince53 View Post
The verse teaches that those who accept Christ are predestined to be made like Him. There is no predestination to accept Christ, to repent, or to believe, however.
But you can't give any kind of meaningful exegesis of the passage to get it to say that. You have to divide and conquer. Sigh.
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Nobody has ever been persecuted on CF. Jus' sayin'.

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  #8  
Old 17th May 2010, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by RobertZ View Post
How does one dead in sins and trespasses choose or accept Christ?
And that, brother, is the million dollar question.
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Nobody has ever been persecuted on CF. Jus' sayin'.

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  #9  
Old 17th May 2010, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Hammster View Post
But you can't give any kind of meaningful exegesis of the passage to get it to say that. You have to divide and conquer. Sigh.
Can you provide any kind of meaningful exigesis to suggest that the foregoing interpretation is unreasonable.

Honestly, I tend to be think more like an Arminian than a Calvinist. However, I now more open to the idea of predestination than I have been in the past. I look at the way one's circumstances seem to have a pretty significant impact on the choices that that person makes, and I don't think that it is such a logical stretch to say that God predestined it all. My problem has been, and still is, that I don't see how a God who is love could predestine the atrocities of the likes Mao, Stalin, and the risk of Godwinning this thread, Hitler. Also, I can't reconcile a God of love with the reality of Hell if individuals are predestined. So, logically, I am stuck with God is love, Hell is not real, and individual predestination may be accurate; or God is love, Hell is real, and individual predestination cannot be accurate; or God is not love, Hell may be real, and individual predestination may be accurate. The last of the these three options clearly contradicts a plain reading of Scripture, so I am inclined to dismiss it.
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  #10  
Old 17th May 2010, 11:33 AM
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28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he glorified.

The key is what is Paul talking about. He is talking about those who are called according to His purpose. His purpose is conforming people to the image of His son. Where we usually have issues is on what does "foreknew" mean. But regardless of your view of foreknowledge, the passage still says that he called those He foreknew. And it has to be a specific call (although there is a general call to all that is also talked about in Scripture). It has to be specific because it says that those he predestined (whatever your meaning of that) He called, AND those He called He justified. If it was a general call you would be left with everybody being justified, which would be universalism. I doubt you believe that. In reverse order, those who will be glorified are those who are justified. And those who are justified are those who are called. And those who are called are those who were predestined. And those who were predestined are those who were foreknown.

We need to look at scripture as it reads, and not as we want it, or not based on tradition (which I was for years). I held your views and debated Calvinists on these forums. But it comes down to what scripture actually says, and not how we want to view God. He is sovereign and we are not. He owes us nothing except Hell. But by His grace He has chosen to save some. And by His grace, I mean by His grace.
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May I never seek in the creature
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Nobody has ever been persecuted on CF. Jus' sayin'.

"If you can't keep from straw-manning my positions by alleging I operate from the same presuppositions you do and therefore believe about my beliefs what you believe about my beliefs, there's no hope for honest discussion "
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As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.
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