Home | Be a Christian | Devotionals | Join Us! | Forums | Rules | F.A.Q.


Go Back   Christian Forums > Theology (orthodox Christians only) > Theology (orthodox Christians only) > General Theology
Register BlogsPrayersJobsArcade Calendar Mark Forums Read

General Theology The forum for general theological discussions about issues that do not fit in any other forum, eg. Angelology

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #91  
Old 24th December 2011, 02:25 AM
Sophia7's husband

Gender: Male Married Faith: Christian Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 24th September 2005
Posts: 17,050
Blessings: 1,191,388
Reps: 699,034,314,741,437,824 (power: 699,034,314,741,463)
tall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond repute
tall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Lysimachus View Post
Total misshandling of her writings.

Scriptures can appear to say a certain thing in one place, but then another thing in another place as well. Context context context.

EGW elsewhere said...
"The young affections should be restrained until the period arrives when sufficient age and experience will make it honorable and safe to unfetter them. Those who will not be restrained will be in danger of dragging out an unhappy existence. {AH 79.3}"
"There is in itself no sin in eating and drinking or in marrying and giving in marriage. It was lawful to marry in the time of Noah, and it is lawful to marry now, if that which is lawful is properly treated and not carried to sinful excess.... {1MCP 221.4}
Think about this for a moment....
I indeed thought about it. The first quote warns against sex outside of its bounds, which all should agree is wrong.

However, the White quotes I raised were not about this problem, but dealt with the marriage relation.

The second talks of “sinful excess”.

And as to "sinful excess", where does the Bible say frequent sex in marriage is sinful? That is what you have utterly failed to demonstrate.

The Bible DOES say that if you withhold from one another you LACK self control in I Cor. 7.

You need to make your biblical case for too much sex being evil in marriage.



....does it not make sense to counsel husbands and wives to avoid having sex EVERY single night?
First and foremost, does the Bible say what you just said?




Isn't it more reasonable to say, something like, 3 or 4 times a week? That's what Ellen White is talking about....where people take things to excess, and overdo good things. Temperance is the key.
You have Ellen’s advice wrong here. She does not at all counsel 3 or 4 times a week.

Her whole view centers around her idea of vital force. She sees us giving account of our vital force, and that it is depleted through “indulgence”.

Very few feel it to be a religious duty to govern their passions. They have united themselves in marriage to the object of their choice, and therefore reason that marriage sanctifies the indulgence of the baser passions. Even men and women professing godliness give loose rein to their lustful passions, and have no thought that God holds them accountable for the expenditure of vital energy, which weakens their hold on life and enervates the entire system. (Testimonies, Volume 4, p. 472)

She feels that sex depletes energy that God gives them.

Can you demonstrate that men and women suffer from depletion of vital force through sex? Can you demonstrate that the Bible warns against this thing we are to be accountable for?

Another quote that talks about how she feels this leads to premature death, and loss of health.

A miserable existence is entailed upon so large a class that death to them would be preferable to life; and many do die prematurely, their lives being sacrificed in the inglorious work of excessive indulgence of the animal passions. Because they are married, they think they commit no sin. {SA 171.1}

Can you demonstrate that people die prematurely due to too much sex? And where does the Bible warn of this?

Let the Christian wife refrain, both in word and act, from exciting the animal passions of her husband. Many have no strength at all to waste in this direction.

While she councils against excess in some places, here she speaks of many who have "no strength at all" to "waste" in this direction. So here she suggests they should not waste ANY vital force, because they have already wasted too much. She is certainly not endorsing 3 or 4 times a week here, but in some cases none.


That is a far cry from Proverbs:

Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.
Pro 5:19 Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.


Why does the Bible say they are to be satisfied and rejoice, and Ellen White says many have no strength to "waste" this direction..

There are two very different underlying views of sex here. And her council that some have NO strength is certainly not encouraging 3 or 4 times per week.

But beyond that we have other evidence of what she and her husband thought on the subject. James published Solemn Appeal Relative to Solitary Vice, and the Abuses and Excesses of the Marriage Relation.

This book included Ellen White’s commentary on these issues, but also put supporting informant from health reformers that the White’s agreed with. Here we see more specific council as to frequency. Here is one such statement from the work:


But for light-built, fine-skinned, fine-haired, spare-built, sharp-featured, light-eyed persons, of either sex, to indulge, even in wedlock, as often as the moon quarters is gradual but effectual destruction of both soul and body; because they already work off vitality faster than their feeble vital apparatus manufactures it. This excess of expenditure over supply occasions their sharpness. A surplus would render them fleshy. Now to add the most powerful drain of all to their already sparse supply, must sooner or later, according to their vigor of constitution, render them bankrupts of life.


Here again we see this reference to the depletion of vital force. Here we are told to indulge as often as the moon quarters is destruction of soul and body. That is not three or four times a week.

Another quote from the same work:

Whoever indulges often, and weekly is often, in wedlock or out of it, will experience an unnatural heat, tension, tenderness, irritation, swelling, perhaps soreness, in these organs, of course resulting from their inflammation.

Can you demonstrate harmful inflammation from weekly intercourse in marriage? Does the Bible warn against such?

Yet this is advice that the Whites placed along-side Ellen’s advice on “marital excess”.

So your view of 3-4 times a week rather than every night sex also fails to deal with the real view they held.

They thought every “indulgence” “wasted” energy that God had given for other things, and you were to be held accountable for your expenditures.


It can wear out your health, there is no question about this. You will physically feel exhausted, as it takes a lot of energy out of you. If one tries abstaining from sex for several days, he/she will be amazed at the energy and vitality they have, and mental sharpness.

I think you guys are making a mountain out of a mowhill. I think these accusations are silly.
Proof please?
Bible text please?

__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!

  #92  
Old 24th December 2011, 02:36 AM
Truth Seeker

Gender: Male Married Faith: Christian Party: US-Others Country: United States Member For 2 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 23rd November 2011
Posts: 1,275
Blessings: 580,051
My Mood Blessed
Reps: 158,981,426,464,572,672 (power: 0)
3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute
3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute3rdHeaven has a reputation beyond repute
12 times a year you say?

Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 24th December 2011, 02:58 AM
Sophia7's husband

Gender: Male Married Faith: Christian Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 24th September 2005
Posts: 17,050
Blessings: 1,191,388
Reps: 699,034,314,741,437,824 (power: 699,034,314,741,463)
tall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond repute
tall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Lysimachus View Post
"The Abuse in Marriage of Sexual Privileges.--The animal passions, cherished and indulged, become very strong in this age, and untold evils in the marriage life are the sure results. In the place of the mind being developed and having the controlling power, the animal propensities rule over the higher and nobler powers until they are brought into subjection to the animal propensities. What is the result? Women's delicate organs are worn out and become diseased; childbearing is no more safe; sexual privileges are abused. Men are corrupting their own bodies, and the wife has become a bed servant to their inordinate, base lusts until there is no fear of God before their eyes. To indulge impulse that degrades both body and soul is the order of the marriage life.--MS 14, 1888. {1MCP 225.1}
Notice how she terms it "sexual privileges", and she does not speak against having sex, but "abusing the gift". Any gift can be abused, just like over-eating good food. It's called "gluttony". She's talking about "sexual gluttony", not sex itself.

A. In the quote I showed earlier she did speak against having sex for some because they had no energy to “waste”

B. Where does the Bible put a limit on the amount of sex between mutually willing spouses in marriage? Where does it warn against this “sexual gluttony” in marriage?

I Cor says not to withhold but only for a time be apart for prayer. It does not say weekly sex damages the organs, etc. as the sources the White’s provide do.

C. Can you provide evidence that frequent married sex wears out women’s organs?

D. I also do see in some of her counsel that she warns against ONE SIDED lust (although always from the viewpoint of the man who must be diverted, restrained, resisted, etc.). In Corinthians both parties were not only to not withhold, but it was recognized that both had needs. To the degree she writes about one sided lust, I agree it is wrong. But I also see that she is not always talking about that situation.

For instance, this quote, already looked at, has both men AND women willingly “indulging”.

Very few feel it to be a religious duty to govern their passions. They have united themselves in marriage to the object of their choice, and therefore reason that marriage sanctifies the indulgence of the baser passions. Even men and women professing godliness give loose rein to their lustful passions, and have no thought that God holds them accountable for the expenditure of vital energy, which weakens their hold on life and enervates the entire system. (Testimonies, Volume 4, p. 472)

So it is not just one sided lust that is the issue, but “excess” in general to Ellen White. But where does the Bible say this about married sex?



You abuse a gift, and nature will kick-back. This should not be too hard to figure out.

It is very hard to figure out. You have not demonstrated that

a. Ellen White is endorsing 3-4 times per week as you contended above.
b. that every day sex injures health.
c. That sex weekly, as the sources the Whites quotes, is harmful

etc.


There's more....
The Privilege of the Marriage Relation.--They [Christians who have married] should duly consider the result of every privilege of the marriage relation, and sanctified principle should be the basis of every action.--2T 380 (1870). {1MCP 221.1}
[She wrote of] "the fortifications preserving sacred the privacy and privileges of the family relation."--2T 90 (1868). {1MCP 221.2}
A Time When Affections May Be Unfettered.--The young affections should be restrained until the period arrives when sufficient age and experience will make it honorable and safe to unfetter them.--AM 8, 1864. (MYP 452.) {1MCP 221.3}
The Danger of Carrying the Lawful to Excess.--There is in itself no sin in eating and drinking or in marrying and giving in marriage. It was lawful to marry in the time of Noah, and it is lawful to marry now, if that which is lawful is properly treated and not carried to sinful excess.... {1MCP 221.4}
In Noah's day it was the inordinate, excessive love of that which in itself was lawful, when properly used, that made marriage sinful before God. There are many who are losing their souls in this age of the world by becoming absorbed in the thoughts of marriage and in the marriage relation itself.... {1MCP 221.5}
God has placed men in the world, and it is their privilege to eat, to drink, to trade, to marry, and to be given in marriage; but it is safe to do these things only in the fear of God. We should live in this world with reference to the eternal world.--RH, Sept 25, 1888. {1MCP 221.6}
Yes, your quotes further demonstrate her fear of marital excess. Where does the Bible warn against this?

Ellen White is in harmony with the Bible here, because the Bible speaks of "eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away..." (Matthew 24:38,39) in a "sinful context". In other words, these gifts can be "abused". THIS is what Ellen White is referring to.
That is ridiculous. It does not say they were taken away because of their being given in marriage. Nor does it say anything about too much sex!

The point was that life went on as normal until everyone was wiped out. Unexpectedly.

Mat 24:37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark,
Mat 24:39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.


The biblical text does not say man was wiped out due to too much sex between married partners!

Ellen White speaks to that from her own viewpoint.

You guys can choose to try and make her contradict the Bible, just like atheists make other passages in scripture contradict the Bible as well. It's your choice.

But I feel full assurance that there is no contradiction here. Only if you want there to be will there be.

I believe I'm telling you the truth.
I believe you are not really looking at her view of marital excess. She views sex as a use of vital force that you have to give account of. She encourages women to discourage their husband from it. The very terms she uses to discuss sex are negative. She contrasts the sexual act with spirituality.

Look for instance at her use of terms in this passage, regarding married sexual indulgence.

They abuse the powers God has given them to be preserved in sanctification and honor. Health and life are sacrificed upon the altar of base passion. The higher, nobler powers are brought into subjection to the animal propensities. Those who thus sin are not acquainted with the result of their course. Could all see the amount of suffering they bring upon themselves by their own wrong and sinful indulgence, they would be alarmed. Some, at least, would shun the course of sin which brings such dreaded wages. A miserable existence is entailed upon so large a class that death to them would be preferable to life; and many do die prematurely, their lives being sacrificed in the inglorious work of excessive indulgence of the animal passions. Because they are married, they think they commit no sin. {SA 171.1}

She speaks of "excessive indulgence."

If there is “excessive indulgence” that means there is also “acceptable indulgence.” But note that it is still called “indulgence”. Why? Indulgence of what? Proverbs called it rejoicing, not indulgence, as though it is some temptation to be avoided.

This “excessive indulgence” is of the “animal passions.” Now notice that again that means there would be acceptable “indulgence” of the animal passions. But why call sex “animal”?


She notes that frequent “indulgence” is abusing the powers (of health, mind etc.) that God designed to be “preserved in sanctification and honor”.. Why would sex in marriage be bringing dishonor? Why is this “animal” “passion” connected with something less than holy?

Heb 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge

In the passage above life is “sacrificed” on the alter of “base” passion. What is base about sex with your spouse?

She then speaks of “sinful indulgence”. If it is a sin why would the Bible not warn of it?

She speaks of the “higher” “nobler” powers, brought into subjection to “animal propensities.” Did God not design sex? Why is one noble and the other animal?

Plainly put, she accuses them of sin. Show me in the Bible where it says it is sin.

Another passage where we see her negative language regarding sex, that is not reflected in the biblical passages:

The more the animal passions are indulged and exercised, the stronger do they become, and the more violent will be their clamors for indulgence. Let God-fearing men and women awake to their duty. Many professing Christianity are suffering with paralysis of nerve and brain because of their intemperance in this direction.Rottennessis in the bones and marrow of many who are regarded as good men, who pray and weep, and who stand in high places, but whose polluted carcasses will never pass the portals of the heavenly city. Oh! that I could make all understand their obligations to God to preserve the mental and physical organism in the best condition to render perfect service to God. {SA 177.1}


Note that sexual passions are again associated with the nature of animals. If these are “indulged” and “exercised” (ie. Sex), they become stronger, and you want more indulgence (sex).

She then talks about paralysis of brain due to lack of temperance in this indulgence of animal passions.

She then says people will be kept out of heaven because their excessive sex has polluted their bodies.

And then the key sentence:

Oh! that I could make all understand their obligations to God to preserve the mental and physical organism in the best condition to render perfect service to God. {SA 177.1}

This is the heart of her view of sex.

We have obligations to preserve mental and physical health in the BEST condition to render PERFECT service.

This is not in line, according to Ellen White, with “indulgence” of animal passions (having sex frequently).

Where does the Bible say we will not be in our best physical condition if we have sex with out spouse frequently? Where does it warn against this sin that keeps people out of heaven, people who pray and weep and care for God?
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by tall73; 24th December 2011 at 03:08 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 24th December 2011, 03:20 AM
Sophia7's husband

Gender: Male Married Faith: Christian Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 24th September 2005
Posts: 17,050
Blessings: 1,191,388
Reps: 699,034,314,741,437,824 (power: 699,034,314,741,463)
tall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond repute
tall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond repute
Here is another statement that the White's chose to put in the volume alongside Ellen White's views on the subject:


Mere sensual indulgence as such, in wedlock or out of it, in and of itself, sensualizes the mind, debases the feelings, and engenders depravity in all its other forms. It is fire to the nervous system, which, diseased, irritates all the propensities, and depraves the entire being!

"sensual indulgence" (sex)... endengers depravity.

There you have it. This puts the whole notion as simply as possible. Sex as viewed as a means to reducing health and holiness.





Sex to Ellen White and those they quoted was

a. a "waste" of vital force.
b. "indulgence"
c. a means of introducing depravity, debasing the nobler passions and bringing one to the level of the "animal"

This is not a biblical view of married sex.





__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 24th December 2011, 12:58 PM
cesty's Avatar
Philippians 4:19

Gender: Male Married Faith: Christian Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 29th July 2008
Posts: 729
Blessings: 6,059,557
Reps: 21,833,310,355,357,976 (power: 21,833,310,355,363)
cesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond repute
cesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by tall73 View Post
And as to "sinful excess", where does the Bible say frequent sex in marriage is sinful? That is what you have utterly failed to demonstrate.
"The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control" (1 Corinthians 7:4-5 NKJV).

It's evident that Paul isn't speaking of complete abstinence from sex here, but to engage in sexual activity in moderation.

Question: Why would he say this if it weren't possible for there to be such a thing as "too much sexual activity"?

Indeed, Paul appears to agree with the idea that too much sex could be problematic.

Having said that, does Ellen White speak against all sexual activity in marriage, or was she simply saying it should be done in moderation? If she was saying it should be done in moderation, then I don't see how her belief disagrees with what Paul said. Now, if she opposed all sexual activity as such, then that would be an obvious problem.

Originally Posted by tall73
The Bible DOES say that if you withhold from one another you LACK self control in I Cor. 7.
I don't see where the Bible says "if you withhold from one another you LACK self control." Perhaps you could show me where that statement is.

Here's what Paul said: "Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control" (1 Corinthians 7:5 NKJV).

What Paul appears to be saying here is that withholding for a time is good, but there are those who lack self-control in this area, in that they have a stronger bent towards engaging in sexual activity than others.

Both husbands and wives need to be sensitive to this, and each one ought to be willing to fill that need, within reason, of course. For if a husband or a wife refuses to fill this sexual need, Satan could tempt either one of them to commit adultery. Thus, they might seek to fill that need elsewhere.

In another place, Paul also says: "but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion" (1 Corinthians 7:9 NKJV).

Again, according to Paul, the people who lack self-control, are those who burn with a passion for sex, not those who are able to withhold it.

Now, I'm not trying to suggest having sex is a bad thing. I'm simply responding to what you had said about those withholding it as lacking self-control.

Last edited by cesty; 24th December 2011 at 01:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 24th December 2011, 03:06 PM
Sophia7's husband

Gender: Male Married Faith: Christian Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 24th September 2005
Posts: 17,050
Blessings: 1,191,388
Reps: 699,034,314,741,437,824 (power: 699,034,314,741,463)
tall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond repute
tall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by cesty View Post
"The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control" (1 Corinthians 7:4-5 NKJV).

It's evident that Paul isn't speaking of complete abstinence from sex here, but to engage in sexual activity in moderation.

Question: Why would he say this if it weren't possible for there to be such a thing as "too much sexual activity"?

Indeed, Paul appears to agree with the idea that too much sex could be problematic.

Having said that, does Ellen White speak against all sexual activity in marriage, or was she simply saying it should be done in moderation? If she was saying it should be done in moderation, then I don't see how her belief disagrees with what Paul said. Now, if she opposed all sexual activity as such, then that would be an obvious problem.



I don't see where the Bible says "if you withhold from one another you LACK self control." Perhaps you could show me where that statement is.
Let me go through the passage and I think you may understand what I am saying. I did not explain it overly much before.

The issue written about by the congregation was whether it was good for a person to abstain from sex.



1Co 7:1 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: "It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman."


Paul goes on to clarify that for some that is a gift to not marry, that he himself has. Here are some of the texts that address it in the chapter.

1Co 7:6 Now as a concession, not a command, I say this.
1Co 7:7 I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.
1Co 7:8 To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am.
1Co 7:9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion
.

1Co 7:32 I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord.
1Co 7:33 But the married man is anxious about worldly things, how to please his wife,
1Co 7:34 and his interests are divided. And the unmarried or betrothed woman is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit. But the married woman is anxious about worldly things, how to please her husband.
1Co 7:35 I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord.


For those who have the gift of being able to focus only on Christ and his concerns, it is good for them not to marry.



However, this is not the rule for all. Most do not have this gift. Paul is single, he is not depriving any spouse of conjugal rights. But he indicates for those who are married, especially in light of outside temptation, to make sure you are meeting the rights of the other spouse.



So now we get into the text we are examining in this thread.

1Co 7:2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.
1Co 7:3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.

So in the section we are looking at the first directive is to meet the rights and needs of the spouse, AS A GUARD AGAINST temptation.


1Co 7:4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

This is a radical thought perhaps at the time that each spouse has a stake over the other in the marriage relation.

They each have a right to enjoyment of sex in marriage, and this is important as a guard against temptation to outside, prohibited sex.

It is within this context then that the key section we looked at appears.


1Co 7:5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.


The main directive of the verse is

Do not deprive one another.

This is in keeping with the statements before that each has authority over the body of the other and has rights to marital relations.

An exception to the rule is then discussed.

except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer

The exception to the rule to not deprive your spouse is that if you both agree, you could for a limited time cease from sex for special times of prayer.

This is the exception to the rule of having sex so as to meet each others needs.

It does not say there is a danger of too much sex. If anything it stresses that regular meeting of your spouse’s needs is important given the immorality in the world.

It says if you both agree to abstain, somewhat like fasting from food, then you can.

But even then it is limited to a time. It is not the usual pattern, because the spouse has rights to have fulfillment within marriage of their needs.

but then come together again

Abstaining from sex is to be the exception, not the norm.

so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.


The “so that” is indicating this clause flows from the previous one.


They are to come together again so that they might not be tempted by immorality in the world, because they are having their needs met.

To not look to your spouse’s needs is lack of self-control, because it opens one up to the temptation of Satan.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by tall73; 24th December 2011 at 03:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 24th December 2011, 03:16 PM
Sophia7's husband

Gender: Male Married Faith: Christian Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 24th September 2005
Posts: 17,050
Blessings: 1,191,388
Reps: 699,034,314,741,437,824 (power: 699,034,314,741,463)
tall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond repute
tall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by cesty View Post
What Paul appears to be saying here is that withholding for a time is good, but there are those who lack self-control in this area, in that they have a stronger bent towards engaging in sexual activity than others.
You seem to not take into account the phrase, "but then come together again."


1Co 7:5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.


You come together again (have sex) so that Satan may not tempt you.

The rule is regular coming together AS A SAFEGUARD against temptation.

The exception is the time where you don't come together. The whole thrust of the passage is that spouses should meet each others needs, because both have rights to it, and because it protects the spouse against outside temptation.



Both husbands and wives need to be sensitive to this, and each one ought to be willing to fill that need, within reason, of course. For if a husband or a wife refuses to fill this sexual need, Satan could tempt either one of them to commit adultery. Thus, they might seek to fill that need elsewhere.
I agree here.


In another place, Paul also says: "but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion" (1 Corinthians 7:9 NKJV).
Exactly. The proper outlet of God-given desire is within marriage, which is why he counsels them to not deprive one another, and even in times where your motivation may be greater prayer, limit those times of abstinence in order to make sure you are protecting your spouse from temptation.


Again, according to Paul, the people who lack self-control, are those who burn with a passion for sex, not those who are able to withhold it.
Not quite correct.

but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion" (1 Corinthians 7:9 NKJV).

You are confusing advice to two different groups.

The group that could remain single and not burn should, so they can better serve the Lord.

If you burn, the remedy is marriage, because there you have an outlet for sex in its proper bounds.

So the solution for those who are burning is to get married and have sex with their spouse. Once in marriage you have an OBLIGATION to meet the needs of your spouse. To not do so is a lack of self control. You are short-circuiting the God-given outlet for those needs.

The solution to lack of self control IS married sex for those who do not have the gift of single life dedicated to God.


Now, I'm not trying to suggest having sex is a bad thing. I'm simply responding to what you had said about those withholding it as lacking self-control.
The overall passage indicates that for those who lack self control they should marry, and not withold, as a means of preventing temptation.

Therefore, meeting your spouses' need IS self control, because to not do so leaves them open to Satan's temptation.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by tall73; 24th December 2011 at 03:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 24th December 2011, 03:29 PM
Sophia7's husband

Gender: Male Married Faith: Christian Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 24th September 2005
Posts: 17,050
Blessings: 1,191,388
Reps: 699,034,314,741,437,824 (power: 699,034,314,741,463)
tall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond repute
tall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by cesty View Post

In another place, Paul also says: "but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion" (1 Corinthians 7:9 NKJV).

Again, according to Paul, the people who lack self-control, are those who burn with a passion for sex, not those who are able to withhold it.

Another area we have to look at, is the nature of the temptation itself.

Why is it problematic for single people to burn with passion? Because if they have sex it is outside the bounds God set for it. It is sin.

It is not a sin to have sex within marriage. Then the temptation that you have to watch for is temptation from OUTSIDE those bounds:

1Co 7:2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.

Sexual immorality is the danger. Sex outside the bounds God set is the danger.

Sex with your spouse is the solution to the problem, not the problem.



The text in Proverbs is dealing with the same issue.

Pro 5:15 Drink water from your own cistern, flowing water from your own well.

This is euphamistic, but the point is clear, have sex with your own wife.


Pro 5:16 Should your springs be scattered abroad, streams of water in the streets?
Pro 5:17 Let them be for yourself alone, and not for strangers with you.

Sex with your spouse keeps you from straying and her from straying.

Pro 5:18 Let your fountain be blessed, and rejoice in the wife of your youth,
Pro 5:19 a lovely deer, a graceful doe. Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight; be intoxicated always in her love.

Rejoice in sex with your spouse.


Pro 5:20 Why should you be intoxicated, my son, with a forbidden woman and embrace the bosom of an adulteress?
Pro 5:21 For a man's ways are before the eyes of the LORD, and he ponders all his paths.
Pro 5:22 The iniquities of the wicked ensnare him, and he is held fast in the cords of his sin.
Pro 5:23 He dies for lack of discipline, and because of his great folly he is led astray.

It is the forbidden woman, outside of the bounds of marriage that presents the temptation.

The one who does not delight in his wife, but starts looking at others is the one who LACKS DISCIPLINE, and is led astray.


Notice the parallel with this last statement and Paul's:

Pro 5:23 He dies for lack of discipline, and because of his great folly he is led astray.

He may have had this text in mind.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 24th December 2011, 07:14 PM
cesty's Avatar
Philippians 4:19

Gender: Male Married Faith: Christian Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 29th July 2008
Posts: 729
Blessings: 6,059,557
Reps: 21,833,310,355,357,976 (power: 21,833,310,355,363)
cesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond repute
cesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond reputecesty has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by tall73 View Post
If you burn, the remedy is marriage, because there you have an outlet for sex in its proper bounds.
I would hope people aren't marrying merely for sex.

So the solution for those who are burning is to get married and have sex with their spouse. Once in marriage you have an OBLIGATION to meet the needs of your spouse. To not do so is a lack of self control. You are short-circuiting the God-given outlet for those needs.
I still don't see how you call "withholding" in marriage a lack of self-control. If anything, it proves you have control over the passions of the flesh.

Don't you believe there is a place for moderation when it comes to sexual activity within marriage?

Therefore, meeting your spouses' need IS self control, because to not do so leaves them open to Satan's temptation.
I understand that, but what if a husband or wife feels the need to have sex excessively, as in several times a day, and his or her spouse simply doesn't have the energy to do that? There needs to be some kind of understanding here between a husband and a wife to refrain from such activity for an appointed time. I believe that was one of the issues Paul was addressing.

And could it be that that's what Ellen White was referring to as well, that there are people who lack self-control in this area, and need to work on controlling their passions?

Again, the principle of moderation comes to mind here.
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 24th December 2011, 08:18 PM
Sophia7's husband

Gender: Male Married Faith: Christian Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 24th September 2005
Posts: 17,050
Blessings: 1,191,388
Reps: 699,034,314,741,437,824 (power: 699,034,314,741,463)
tall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond repute
tall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond reputetall73 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by cesty View Post
I would hope people aren't marrying merely for sex.
Who said they are?

But he still said what he said. Part of the decision to decide to marry is whether you can live a single life only to God without bringing shame to His cause by moral failure.


I still don't see how you call "withholding" in marriage a lack of self-control.

Because the text says that to not come together again is lack of self control and leads to temptation. Please break down the sentence phrase by phrase and show what it means.



If anything, it proves you have control over the passions of the flesh.
Is this coming form the text? Or is this your idea?


Please go through the text phrase by phrase and show that it says it.


The thing that was lack of self-control in the text was not "coming together" again.

If you neglect meeting your spouse's needs, that IS lack of self-control according to what it says.


Don't you believe there is a place for moderation when it comes to sexual activity within marriage?
Being sensitive to your partners limitations or desires is of course important. But in this text the focus is clearly on encouraging regular sex for the sake of both parties, as a protection against temptation, and that is the opposite of Ellen White's message. Mrs. White thinks that everytime you have sex you are depleting vital force, and that excessive sex destroys health and moral worth. That is nowhere in this text at all.


Now if by your question you are wondering if it is a sin to have sex often with your spouse, no, it is not. The Bible never says sex often with your spouse is a sin, nor does it warn against excessive sex with your spouse.



I understand that, but what if a husband or wife feels the need to have sex excessively, as in several times a day, and his or her spouse simply doesn't have the energy to do that? There needs to be some kind of understanding here between a husband and a wife to refrain from such activity for an appointed time. I believe that was one of the issues Paul was addressing.
That was not the issue he was addressing. He was addressing how married people should not avoid sex, as it leads to temptation. Hence his contrasting those who have a gift of, and remain single, and those who get married.

Moreover, the break from regular sex was the exception, not the rule in his statement. And it was not just because one or the other was too tired, but specifically for the purpose of prayer.

What you are talking about can be an issue between a husband and wife, but it is not directly addressed by the text. He is addressing the notion that regular sex between married people lessens temptation from outside.

As I mentioned above, a couple should come to some agreement about their relative drives. But the point Paul is making is to not withhold for long periods because it can lead to temptation. On the other hand the sources quoted by Ellen White were fine with long periods of no sex, and stated that excessive sex leads to health issues. Those are not the same at all.


Now, what Ellen White was addressing is a different issue from what you are addressing for another reason. In some of her quotes she included statements where BOTH parties wanted sex often. And she still said it destroyed health, etc. So it was not just an issue of different drives. She thought that even if both were thrilled with the idea it led to spiritual and health problems.

But does the Bible say sex with one's spouse depletes vital force and damages health? No.


And could it be that that's what Ellen White was referring to as well, that there are people who lack self-control in this area, and need to work on controlling their passions?

Again, the principle of moderation comes to mind here.
It certainly was what Ellen White was referring to. She thought that sex often was damaging to health, the spiritual life, etc.

But it was not what Paul was referring to, which is why they are different.

Again, you have not demonstrated the Bible saying frequent sex with your spouse:

a. is a sin
b. depletes vital force
c. causes spiritual problems.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Return to General Theology

Thread Tools
Display Modes


 
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:57 AM.