Unorthodox TheologyA forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. Full Preterism, Unitarianism)
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Would God welcome only LDS into the Celestial Kingdom and relegate all non-LDS to other kingdoms?
This seems to be the point of your very first post here. I can't find it now, but I remember you said something to the effect that God does not care about denominations. I agree. Certainly Jesus, Peter, Paul, Moses, Adam, Noah, and Abraham were not LDS, so NO, God does not welcome only LDS into the Celestial Kingdom. I feel assured that all of these men will be in the Celestial Kingdom, and I believe that Esther, Ruth, Mary, Mary Magdalene, and Abish will be in the Celestial Kingdom as well.
"And then be saved" is not the problem. The question is, "Would a saved person go out and murder someone?" The answer is, "No."
I like this, and agree with it whole-heartedly.
And I'm still trying to understand why LDS believe that accepting Christ isn't a requirement for salvation.
Well, the LDS believe that accepting Christ is a requirement for salvation, so there's your problem. You believe something incorrect. Hopefully I have corrected your incorrect belief.
QUIZ:
1. Does God punish sinners?
Yes, but he doesn't always do it in this life.
2. Does He have that right?
Absolutely.
3. Which humans haven't sinned?
None. Romans 3:23"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
4. Did Jesus die for sinners or only for the righteous?
Jesus died for both.
5. Who is condemned?
I'm not sure I understand the point of the question. I think you are referring to Romans 14:23 "But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin." If this is what you are referring to, then all sinners are condemned.
However, those that partake of Jesus atonement are not condemned. As Jesus told the woman caught in adultery in John 8:10-11,
"When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Okay, is that why LDS send missionaries to my doorstep and my Mennonite neighbor's doorstep?
Maybe they thought you looked nice and wanted to talk to you! I think you know the answer to that question, but I'll oblige. They would like to help you become a better Christian. (It appears you think your version of Christianity is superior to the Missionaries version--am I wrong? "yes" or "no" please.)
It is God who changes a person's heart and guides His adopted child in paths of righteousness for His name's sake. Just because someone professes faith in Christ does not mean he has been born again. Works are not a requirement for salvation. They are a result of salvation. My faith and works are not pulling the cart. The faith is pulling me to do good works.
I have no qualms with what you just said. This whole grace/works argument is much ado about nothing. It seems to be a heated argument of which came first--the chicken or the egg, and I think the whole argument is silly and pointless. A person with true faith naturally wants to do the works of God. Too many Mormons argue this point and it is silly.
If you knew that faith in Christ is a requirement for salvation, you certainly would not ask the question. Remember the above question and answer?
Yes, I remember the above question and answer, and I hope I have answered clearly. I hope you will answer "yes" or "no" as well to my questions.
First of all, the Bible doesn't talk about partially or fully accepting Christ. See John 3:18. Second, glory is not promised to those who have not been justified and justification comes only through faith in Christ. See Romans 5:1. Third, a Christian would not murder. "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9
I agree.
John 3:18 says that sinners are damned until they come to Christ, the Light. Christ came to save sinners; the requirement for salvation is faith in Christ. So we cannot single out Hindus. It is unbelievers who don't receive salvation. My family of origin are unbelievers. They have never been and are not Hindus. You, yourself, said that LDS missionaries visit Hindus "to bring the Good News of the Gospel of Christ, and help them obtain salvation and eternal life." You say, "Christ's blood grants eternal life only to those who have accepted him as a true believer. This gift is not available to Hindus or believers of another god."
Gosh, I feel like you've almost made it clear here, and I think I agree with everything you just said. Am I correct that you believe Hindus are damned?
This is long enough again. I'll address the rest in just a few minutes.
Phoebe, we still seem to have a communication problem. In my previous response, at least 3 times I asked you to use "yes" or "no" at the beginning of your answer so your answer is clear.
I don't know about Phoebe Ann, but I abhor being told what to answer. This is not a court of law where the lawyer barks, "Just yes or no, please." Another problem I see is that your questions are not clear. Let me proceed.
<text omitted>
Originally Posted by mormonheretic
My question:
Originally Posted by mormonheretic
Irish Catholics and Protestants have fought wars for years. They believe in Christ. Does Christ accept them, or do they work iniquity?
During the Crusades, Catholic Christians attacked Eastern Orthodox Christians in Constantinople. Does Christ accept Catholic and Orthodox warriors, or do they work iniquity?
When you can confirm which individuals in each of the above said groups have faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ, then perhaps you might get a yes or no answer. You are not talking about individuals - you are speaking of groups. That is like saying that the United States of America is a Christian nation. Well, there are many Jews here who would probably disagree. Is Utah a Mormon state? Not knowing the demographics, I would probably say no. To say that this country was founded on Christian principals would be accurate, but that doesn't save everyone with U.S. citizenship.
Originally Posted by mormonheretic
Your answers did not use "yes" or "no". Really, if our goal is to avoid being misunderstood, we must answer questions clearly. I gave you a template to answer this specific question, yet you answered my question with a series of questions again. Please do not answer my question with a question.
This is simply an attempt to dominate the interrogation and response, IMO. Your questions did not lead to yes or no answers as I pointed out. Now, can you answer the questions that you asked? Apparently, you at least have an opinion.
Originally Posted by mormonheretic
I think the reason people don't answer your questions is because your questions aren't questions, they are ANSWERS. Nevertheless, in the spirit of building goodwill and communication, I will endeavor to answer your "answers."
Originally Posted by Phoebe Ann
Were there any Christians in Germany who belonged to the Nazi forces? Were there any Protestant Christians who killed Catholic Christians in Ireland? Were there any Catholic Christians who killed Protestants in Ireland? Do LDS belong to the CIA? Have LDS in the American armed forces killed anyone during the different wars?
Yes, there were probably Christians in Germany that belonged to the Nazi forces. Yes Protestants killed Catholics, and Catholics killed Protestants in Ireland (which is the central focus of my point, so I don't know why you are asking ME that question, since I asked you first.) Yes, the LDS belong to the CIA. Yes LDS in American armed forces have killed many people in conflicts.
There, 4 questions, 4 yes answers. See, it's not that hard. Nevertheless, you didn't answer my questions that proceeded your "answers". Please use "yes" or "no" when (or if) you answer my questions. Your persistent refusal to answer my questions clearly, seems to indicate an evasiveness that does not facilitate good communication. No wonder you call yourself misunderstood--you do not make yourself understood.[/quote]
With all due respect, it seems that it is only some LDS claim to not understand her posts. I have no difficultly with comprehending her what she writes, or those of other non-LDS (nice term, hey? Much better than "contra-mo" I see one of your cohorts throwing around. Sorry - off topic)
<text omitted>
[mormonheretic]quote=Yes, I agree, LDS are not always justified in killing others. When you go to war, you are killing an enemy. Generally the rules of war are "shoot first, ask questions later."
Every single question you asked me dealt with a non-religious war. I asked you about religious wars. If an LDS shoots a Nazi, it has no bearing on where the Nazi went to church. If a protestant kills a Catholic in Ireland, the purpose in killing is because of where the enemy went to church. This is a big difference. Religious wars are fought over religion. Other wars are fought for non-religious reasons. While all wars make God sorrow, I think he believes we have a right to defend ourselves.
The Book of Mormon clearly shows that defensive war is ok. The Bible actually seems to believe that offensive war is acceptable, as seen by Moses and Joshua's war of conquest in the Land of Canaan. (Subsequent biblical wars seemed to be more defensive in nature, as the Jews were defending their homeland that they forcefully took from the Canaanites.)
An LDS member killing a Nazi is defending Jews and freedom. If a Nazi is a Christian participating in the Holocaust, that Nazi doesn't sound like a good Christian to me. However, I don't think Nazi's believed in "conscientious objector" status, so the German Christian may have been coerced into joining the army. God will take that into account at judgment. [/quote]
In fact, they did - sort of. The German soldiers were allow to NOT participate in the death squads, but are we talking about individuals who have faith in Christ or just talking about Germans?
Originally Posted by mormonheretic
Once again, you seem to be missing the point of my question when you bring up WW2. Your "answers" are not addressing my point about religious wars. Religious wars are "defending" one's religion. If 2 Christians are fighting over Christ, how does Christ handle the situation? I ask again, Does Christ accept both sides in religious wars fought in his name, or do they work iniquity? (2 examples of religious wars are Crusades, and the Irish war we have been discussing.
The way you have framed that question still begs the yes-no question. Are these two people who have faith in Christ or are they Christians in name only? Are they Christians because their parents took them to church and had them baptized as infants, therefore making them "Christians." OR are they both individuals who have made a commitment to accept by faith the risen Savior? They they have both done this, I would argue that they would NOT be fighting over "religion." They would probably be praying together.
<text omitted>
Rufus
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Last edited by RufustheRed; 7th May 2010 at 04:10 AM.
Let me ask again, does His blood save individuals who come to Him or does it save all people regardless of what god they serve?
Yes, Christ's blood saves individuals who come to Him. It does not save people regardless of what god they serve.
It sounds to me like you're getting confused with what I said earlier. I will quote it again here, with some additions in purple font to address your question above. I think you found my statement confusing when I said,
Originally Posted by mormonheretic
As you know, Mormons believe that there are 3 degrees of Glory. Those who accept Christ fully will inherit the highest glory, but a good Hindu who does not fully accept Christ will not obtain the highest glory. This means the person who fully accepts Christ is in the Celestial Kingdom. To be in the Celestial Kingdom means salvation. See D&C 76:50-70 for more information. The Hindu will be in either the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom. Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms do not equal salvation. See D&C 76:71-119--it is much too long to quote here.
Now you may be wondering about what I said when I said "Hindu who does not fully accept Christ".
Following Jesus death on the cross, many have wondered where he went, because he did not ascend to the Father. For example, we know that Jesus appeared to Mary after she discovered the empty tomb. Apparently Mary tried to embrace Jesus. (Who wouldn't?) The Gospel of John chapter 20 verse 17 records, Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father.
So if Jesus didn't go to the Father after he died, many have wondered where he went during this 3 day period? Paul in his Epistle to Peter tells us that Jesus visited those who were disobedient in the days of Noah. 1 Peter 3:18-20 says,
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,)
Furthermore, 1 Peter 4:6 expands on this topic further:
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
Paul discusses this topic again in 1 Cor 15:22-31. I find verses 22 and 29 most interesting.
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour?
31 I die every day–I mean that, brothers–just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”
33 Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.”
Christ taught the dead who were disobedient in the days of Noah. Since Christianity didn't exist in Noah's day, these people were certainly non-Christians. More than likely, they were polytheistic. There is a good chance that they had some beliefs in common with our hypothetical Hindu. If a Hindu never hears of Christ in this life, would a loving god damn the Hindu who never heard of Christ? Mormon theology says no. If I understand your theology correctly, the Hindu is damned to Hell, because only true, faithful Christians will be saved.
Your quiz says all men are sinners, including Hindus. God condemns all sinners. Only those who accept Christ will not be condemned. If a Hindu does not accept Christ, the Hindu is condemned to damnation. Therefore, all Hindus are damned, because by definition they worship a different god, and have no faith in Christ. Does this accurately represent your beliefs? ("yes" or "no" would be very helpful here.)
Mormons, on the other hand, believe that Christ will teach to the Hindu as it says in 1 Peter chapter 3 and 4. If this Hindu accepts Christ, he will be baptized as it says in 1 Cor 15. Therefore, Mormons do not believe all Hindus will be damned to Hell.
So, the Celestial Kingdom will be full of people of MANY denominations, and it is not limited to LDS only. This belief fully refutes your erroneous point in your opening post that makes the assumption that non-LDS will obtain "wo" and damnation. It also answers your question,
Originally Posted by Phoebe Ann
Would God welcome only LDS into the Celestial Kingdom and relegate all non-LDS to other kingdoms?
I remind you that even if a Hindu chooses not to accept Christ, then the Hindu will not obtain the Celestial Kingdom. We believe that the same sociality exists in the next life as it does here. If people rejected Christ in Jerusalem 2000 years ago, they have the opportunity to reject him in the spirit prison as well. It is not a slam dunk that someone will accept Christ in spirit prison.
Even if the Hindu rejects Christ in spirit prison, the good Hindu does have an opportunity to receive a higher glory than a Christian that murders in God's name. This means that a good Hindu could potentially be in the Terrestrial Kingdom, while the Christian guilty of war crimes enters the lower glory Telestial Kingdom.
If I understand your position correctly, you don't have this "gradient" scale. Either man goes to Heaven or Hell. Hindus have no shot at Heaven, because they do not believe in Christ. Plundering Christian Crusaders probably will go to Hell because they are not "true believers." If my understanding of your position is correct, then all Hindus are damned. Is this correct?
As a former member, I am surprised that you are asking this question. (Perhaps you do not understand LDS theology as good as you think you do.) Christ's resurrection is freely given to all men--Christian, Non-Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc. All receive this gift that Christ gave us by dying on the Cross and being resurrected the 3rd day. (This gift of resurrection is given to all, but is not considered salvation. Hindus will be resurrected, along with Christians.)
The gift of Eternal life is another matter. Christ's blood grants eternal life only to those who have accepted him as a true believer. This gift is not available to Hindus or believers of another god. (Eternal life means salvation in the Celestial Kingdom.)
I hope that answers your question. Apostle Russell M Nelson gave an address on salvation and exaltation in April 2008 if you would like more information. See his talk titled Salvation and Exaltation. (I tried to post the link, but I can't yet.)
"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9
If a person does not have the Spirit of Christ/has not been born again of the Spirit, he is not a Christian. If a person belongs to Christ, he/she is being led by the Holy Spirit. Churches don't save. Christ saves.
Well, the LDS believe that accepting Christ is a requirement for salvation, so there's your problem. You believe something incorrect. Hopefully I have corrected your incorrect belief.
Hindus and Buddhists are people who haven't accepted Christ. I wasn't incorrect. LDS responses have been on both sides of the fence.
I don't know about Phoebe Ann, but I abhor being told what to answer. This is not a court of law where the lawyer barks, "Just yes or no, please."
Rufus, I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on tv. I've been told several times that this is a debate forum. As such, I don't think it is inappropriate to answer questions clearly. Yes or No is very clear. Phoebe and you have complained about being misunderstood. Yes or No is very clear. If my questions are not clear, I'll be happy to clarify them. I have noted where Phoebe's question are not clear to by stating "if you mean....then yes/no" Phoebe is certainly welcome to do the same.
Another problem I see is that your questions are not clear. Let me proceed.
<text omitted>
When you can confirm which individuals in each of the above said groups have faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ, then perhaps you might get a yes or no answer. You are not talking about individuals - you are speaking of groups. That is like saying that the United States of America is a Christian nation. Well, there are many Jews here who would probably disagree. Is Utah a Mormon state? Not knowing the demographics, I would probably say no. To say that this country was founded on Christian principals would be accurate, but that doesn't save everyone with U.S. citizenship.
This is a fair point, but Phoebe never attempted to ask for a clarification, did she? From her responses, it seemed she answered the question with question because she understood my intent. If she didn't understand, then she should have responded as you did. She did not.
[quote[This is simply an attempt to dominate the interrogation and response, IMO. Your questions did not lead to yes or no answers as I pointed out. Now, can you answer the questions that you asked? Apparently, you at least have an opinion.[/quote]
Yes, Rufus, I did answer my own questions. Let me quote myself. (It was a long response--perhaps you missed it.)
Originally Posted by mormonheretic
I'll answer my own question: "are Crusaders working iniquity?" Yes, I believe they are working iniquity, and I believe Christ is unhappy with them for attacking Orthodox Christians in Constantinople.
With all due respect, it seems that it is only some LDS claim to not understand her posts. I have no difficultly with comprehending her what she writes, or those of other non-LDS (nice term, hey? Much better than "contra-mo" I see one of your cohorts throwing around. Sorry - off topic)
Rufus, Phoeve was accused of misrepresenting and distorting LDS beliefs--not quite the same as "not understand her posts." She claims not to misrepresent or distort belief. Much of that can be attributed to her lack of clarity when answering questions. It almost feels like interviewing Bill Clinton, "Well, it depends on what the definition of is is...." Really, must we resort to defining IS? (rhetorical--no response needed or sought.)
In fact, they did - sort of. The German soldiers were allow to NOT participate in the death squads, but are we talking about individuals who have faith in Christ or just talking about Germans?
Wow, I did not know that. You have a better grasp of German WW2 history than me. I learned something. Yes, I believe Phoebe was talking about Germans with faith in Christ. I wasn't talking about Germans--I was talking about the Crusades and the Irish conflict. I've been trying to quit talking about Germans, because it is not relevant, but I was trying to answer Phoebe's question. So once again, it was Pheobe's point you are misunderstanding, not mine. I think this is another example to show she does not communicate well if you are attributing it to me.
The way you have framed that question still begs the yes-no question. Are these two people who have faith in Christ or are they Christians in name only? Are they Christians because their parents took them to church and had them baptized as infants, therefore making them "Christians." OR are they both individuals who have made a commitment to accept by faith the risen Savior? They they have both done this, I would argue that they would NOT be fighting over "religion." They would probably be praying together.
I didn't ask about Germans with faith in Christ--that was Phoebe. As I understand it, Phoebe frames Christians much more restrictively than anybody who went to a Christian church. She is framing a believer as "one who's heart has been changed and been born again." I have a hard time believing a Nazi Christian participating in the Holocaust would meet that definition, but perhaps one of you knows of a case you can share.
Once again, the question you point as confusing is Pheobe's not mine.
Uh, I don't have to "read minds" (nice false witnessing there), I just have to read peoples WORDS.....
I can tell quite easily when someone is being degrading or a group and/or the people within it. But, you have your view and I have mine.
You chose to criticize my testimony, not any argument I made against mormonism. My testimony is that God told me it is wrong. It is not your place to tell me that what God told me is wrong.
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Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." (Mark 7:5-13)
I have presented evidence to support my claim that men have changed God's words and works. That evidence was spoken by the mouth of Jesus Christ. It is not conjecture. So when a boy says that Jesus Christ once again has said directly to him that men have changed his words and works, I already have cause to believe that the boy's witness may be true. Should I find more instances in which men have changed what God has given them, my confidence in the possibility that it has happened again will increase yet more. Should I find prophecies in sources already established in my mind and heart by spiritual means to be inspired, indicating that men would abandon or change truth for reasons whatever, my confidence in this possibility will increase still. And so on...
I was looking more for evidence concerning changing what Christ said, or the apostles, but this example is a prime reason why the church took great pains to make sure that they did not change the text when they copied the texts to distribute and preserve them.
So, could you provide examples of where plain and precious parts of the Bible were lost, added or changed? That is, after all, what Joseph Smith was talking about when he made the accusation.
bumping for softspoken.
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I was looking more for evidence concerning changing what Christ said, or the apostles, but this example is a prime reason why the church took great pains to make sure that they did not change the text when they copied the texts to distribute and preserve them.
So, could you provide examples of where plain and precious parts of the Bible were lost, added or changed? That is, after all, what Joseph Smith was talking about when he made the accusation.
Sorry I missed this.
While I have no objection to the claim of preservation, the problem is that preservation doesn't reach back quite far enough. Bible manuscripts can be verified back to the 3rd Century A.D., but no further. And most, if not all, of the references by the early Church writers which indicate that corruption of the scriptures was taking place, describe those activities in the 2nd Century or before. So the evidence needed to verify that what has been preserved in existing manuscripts is actually what was originally written does not exist. So the evidence you request of me is the same evidence I would request of you, at least as pertaining to the original works.
I apologize for the length of this tome, SoftSpoken. I just could not condense it any more and cover what you asked of me.
[quote=SoftSpoken;54630254]I apologize for my earlier comments. Not, mind you, because I showed emotion in my words, nor because the conviction behind them was misplaced, but for the contemptuous tone of my words.[quote] Your apology is accepted.
I suppose, then, that you have never expressed the slightest bit of emotion in any of your posts. I also suppose that if you have, you were 100% justified in so doing, and whoever got their feathers ruffeld by your justified expression of human nature was wrong for even taking note of it. This is what I suppose, since my post is not worth your response. Idea distorted. You are supposing incorrectly – and all of these suppositions are entirely beside the point in the first place and have zero to do with the substance of our discussion, so I'm not even going to pursue that at all.
So you can abandon it, or you could stick it out with me, and see if we can't endure the rough edges of one another's comportment, and come to where we understand one another. Regardless of how obvious it is to you—now that I'm fallen from your graces—that I am just a clone of the next LDS poster, my post was a sincere response to what I understand to be a sincere post—emotion or not. Another idea distorted. Do you really believe me to be such a shallow-minded person that I'm whining because you're showing emotion? I have no problem with passion, my friend – in fact I will always applaud righteous indignation. But the calculated contortion of someone else's ideas – and the insidious intent behind it – are an altogether different, are far more serious, matter, and therein lies my justifiable complaint. If you can stomach composing one to such a cretin as myself, I'd appreciate a response.Another idea distorted. Since I neither called you a cretin nor even implied that I believe you anything remotely close to a cretin, I will thank you – once again – to refrain from contorting (or inventing) my ideas. You could start by showing me where I twisted your words, since as I review both your post and my response, I see no place where i Have engaged in take-it-and-torque-it dialogue. I believe we began to bog down somewhere around your I-don't-have-a-checklist thing. In Post 159, you seemed to resent – mightily – my stating that Joseph Smith and his successors have added so many requirements to the ones Christ gave us for eternal life – to the point that you even called it “insanity” that I would list [some of] them. Here were your exact words: I'll take Mormonsim any day over that insanity you describe. But the truth is that what I had described IS Mormonism: normal, regular, everyday, run-of-the-mill life in an active LDS family – and you tried to make it look otherwise and even told me I had a “seriously warped view of what it means to live the Restored Gospel.” That distortion of truth doesn't work on someone lived Mormonism faithfully 24/7 for forty years. Then later, in Post 175, you said So what? This is a burden to me? If I say I love God then ought I not to be happy to keep his commandments? If I get sloppy because of the stresses of the world and the weaknesses of my flesh (which God himself gave me, and He knows this), I can repent and know that I'll be forgiven. Where, then, is the burden? Is it only in that God has seen fit to excat some specifics from me? That he expects lifelong dedication and continuous labor in his vineyard? If that is all, where is the burden? If you found it burdensome, why?But here you are, a few posts later, acknowledging that – voila! - you do in fact have a working knowledge of that list after all, and in fact that you are happy to be keeping all those commandments. In spite of so many other distortions, I'm willing to give you then benefit of the doubt and believe you on this one. And this distortion of truth, from Post 167-Let's ask them whether or not you have a clear understanding of the burden of Mormonsim.That term “burden of Mormonism” is yours – ALL yours. Not only did I notsay or imply in any way that I felt burdened by Mormonism, but if you will look back, I said the following (and meant it with all my heart): I never said your life could not be "fluid" within Mormonism, nor did I say or even imply that I hated mine at the time, and in fact I loved my very active LDS life and had zero problem with it and was grateful at the time for the whole of it. Here's a nice zinger, from your Post 181: So in my life, I do not consider the Restored Gospel, and what God through it requires of me, a burdensome list of spiritual busiwork. I understand both the doctrines of the Gospel, and their intended effect upon my soul. I understand the atonement of Christ, and how it affords me all that I am and can become. And I understand my Father, and can see in the Restored Gospel his love for me and all mankind, and the perfection with which he deals with us all. And so I enjoy serving God and laboring for Him in the Gospel. All I can do at this point is hope that you will see why I do not believe the Restoration is a burden. Here we have a perfect example of why I have now identified you with the other LDS posters, with whom I am now no longer communicating – for this very reason. “Iunderstand the atonement of Christ...” meaning, of course that your understanding of it is oh-so-inferior (and don't EVEN try to tell me I'm wrong, because in my own LDS thinking I had the same holier-than-thou mentality). “I understand my Father...” meaning, of course, that your own non-LDS understanding of Him is vastly inferior. “I enjoy serving God and laboring for Him...” meaning, of course, that you couldn't possibly, with your woefully inferior understanding. These are just a few examples of the hypocritical, sanctimonious attitude that generally pervades – and reeks – here. I really did think you were different for a while, and still do, to some extent. At least you're generally courteous, and that's more than can be said for some others. And you know what? I really don't even hold you personally responsible, because it's ingrained into you by the leaders and teachings in the LDS church – here comes that word you all hate so much – programmed into you by 170-something years of being told that the rest of the world doesn't have a clue but Mormons have it all. How could you not believe the way you do, and who could blame you, with that kind of 24/7 teaching being poured into your head? Okay, one last thing, and then I'll shut up (at long last). You asked me about why I was worried about you. You said... You make it sound as though these things must occupy our thoughts incessantly—that we must verify from minute to minute that we are in harmony with all this. My oldest son is turning 12 in 7 months. Do you think I harp on him every day that if he doesn't receive the Aaronic Priesthood he'll be damned? My goodness! What a religion you lived! No thanks. I'll take Mormonsim any day over that insanity you describe. My life within Mormonsim is as fluid from day to day as yours is without it. I believe you have a seriously warped view of what it means to live the Restored Gospel. The reason this concerns me is that (a) once again, you totally misconstrued what I had said, and (b) in the LDS church, although – just to take the example you mentioned – you wouldn't harp on your son all day, every day about preparing himself to receive the priesthood, you certainly would encourage him and make certain that when the day came, he would be ready. Then you would encourage him to fulfill his priesthood duties regularly and faithfully, and eventually be ready to receive the Melchizedek priesthood and then serve a mission, and then be married in the temple and then serve in the church for the rest of his life, etc., etc., etc. - just like dear old Dad. All of the above, whether you want to admit it out loud or not, requires constant effort, on your part and his. If you are not feeling that obligation, then yes, I worry about you, because the church makes it abundantly clear that it is in fact your obligation and that there is no wiggle-room if you are going to be considered worthy. And WORTHY is the word that literally rules in the LDS church; it is the word with which they rule your life. Please tell me you'll think about that, long and hard.
I think you know the answer to that question, but I'll oblige. They would like to help you become a better Christian. (It appears you think your version of Christianity is superior to the Missionaries version--am I wrong? "yes" or "no" please.)
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