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Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum The Endtimes & Prophecy Forum for the discussion of future events. No full preterist views. Partial preterists welcomed.

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  #1  
Unread 26th April 2010, 12:17 PM
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The Rapture before the Tribulation -Enoch's Pre-Trib Eschatology Revelation

[Chapter 50]
A The rapture/translation to glory bodies, of the living saints:
1 And in those days a change shall take place for the holy and elect,
And the light of days shall abide upon them,
And glory and honour shall turn to the holy,

B Then the tribulation/day of wrath upon all the inhabitants of the world:
2 On the day of affliction on which evil shall have been treasured up against the sinners.

C The safety of those translated to glory, pre-trib, is seen and known by those remaining:
And the righteous shall be victorious in the name of the Lord of Spirits:

D Those who see and repent are saved in the name of the Son of Man, but they do not get translated to glory,and endure to the end:
And He will cause the others to witness (this)
That they may repent
And forgo the works of their hands.

3 They shall have no honour through the name of the Lord of Spirits,
Yet through His name shall they be saved,
And the Lord of Spirits will have compassion on them,
For His compassion is great. 4 And He is righteous also in His judgement,

E The end, when the LORD comes to judge and to cleanse the earth of all the wicked, in what Enoch calls the second consummation of sin on earth:
And in the presence of His glory unrighteousness also shall not maintain itself:
At His judgement the unrepentant shall perish before Him.
5 And from henceforth I will have no mercy on them, saith the Lord of Spirits.

Enoch opens his book with the revelation of the tribulation of the end times, and says he writes it for those who will be living at that time:
Chapter 1]
1 The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be 2 living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said -Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is 3 for to come. Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them:
he Holy Great One will come forth from His dwelling,
4 And the eternal God will tread upon the earth, (even) on Mount Sinai,
[And appear from His camp]
And appear in the strength of His might from the heaven of heavens.

5 And all shall be smitten with fear
And the Watchers shall quake,
And great fear and trembling shall seize them unto the ends of the earth.
6 And the high mountains shall be shaken,
And the high hills shall be made low,
And shall melt like wax before the flame
7 And the earth shall be wholly rent in sunder,
And all that is upon the earth shall perish,
And there shall be a judgement upon all (men).
8 But with the righteous He will make peace.
And will protect the elect,
And mercy shall be upon them.
And they shall all belong to God,
And they shall be prospered,
And they shall all be blessed.
And He will help them all,
And light shall appear unto them,
And He will make peace with them'.
9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh
Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

And in chapter 50 of
Enoch's parables, he reveals the rapture/translation to glory, of the righteous before the tribulation, and then, those remaining who see and repent, are the "elect" who understand by what has happened and by Enoch's book which is for them in that time, as Enoch said, and they repent, but get no glory as those they saw raptured do, who are translated and removed, for that time of the tribulation which is to come as the second consummation of sin on earth, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed.

Those remaining after that removal do not get the bodies translated to glory, though they are saved in the name of the Son of Man who was to come and is come, and we see by the writings of Enoch and of the OT and NT, that they enter into the millennial kingdom as the blessed of YHWH, who populate the earth and live for a thousand years, never dying for there is no more death anymore [except for the unrepentant sinners who die at age 100, as Isaiah writes], before they who are the "Blessed of YHWH" are translated to their immortal, made for glory,bodies, at the last ingathering of earth's last and final harvest of the sons of God, adopted out of Adam and into the New Man name.
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  #2  
Unread 26th April 2010, 03:49 PM
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I'm not sure what bearing a non-canonical book has on doctrine.
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Unread 26th April 2010, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Yekcidmij View Post
I'm not sure what bearing a non-canonical book has on doctrine.
Just wait. She will tell you why she believes that it applies. Been there already lol.
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Unread 26th April 2010, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Yekcidmij View Post
I'm not sure what bearing a non-canonical book has on doctrine.
Are you Roman Catholic, then? Enoch was already called inspired Scripture before Rome decided that they would exclude Enoch from their list[canon means list] of books [Bible means collection of writings], but not all Christians ever followed Rome, and Enoch remained in the Bibles [collection of writings called sacred] of many early Christians and of the Ethiopian NT Church, where it remains in their Bible today.


Enoch is inspired Scripture. The early Church believed Enoch was inspired and many of them wrote that fact. The Jews who received Jesus believed Enoch was inspired. Jesus called it Scripture and quoted from its doctrines in His teachings.
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Unread 26th April 2010, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Yekcidmij View Post
I'm not sure what bearing a non-canonical book has on doctrine.
Enoch has all bearing on all Christian doctrines to do with these subjects:
1 The Son of Man in heaven who was hidden/kept secret until His revealing, who was with God in secret, and who was God, and who was to come, and in whose name the redeemed would be saved.

2 The Lake of Fire made for the devil and his angels; who goes there and when and why

3 Sheol below earth -everything about it, who goes there, how long they remain, why they go there, and how the four hollows [Sheol means "hollow] are separated, with one for the redeemed souls to wait in comfort for the day of their release from that death of separation, when the Son of Man would rise from the dead and raise them from there.

4 the origin of demons and their judgment and why they roam earth and torment, afflict, seduce and deceive the sons of Adam

5 the calendar God established for all creation

6 the great tribulation as the second consummation of sin on earth, and the descriptions of that time to come

7 the reign of peace, the end of the curse for the earth, and the regeneration of the heavens and the earth

8 the angels in heaven do not marry nor take in marraige

the resurrected and translated saints will be equal with/companions of/like the angels in heaven

9 the rapture of the righteous before the tribulation

10 Why Azazel is given all sin, who Azazel is, and how that relates to the Atonement of Christ for our sins.

Azazel is wrongly translated "scapegoat" in the English translations, but the Hebrew word is Azazel, and the goat elected by lot on the day of Atonement "to Azazel", upon whom all the sins and iniquities of the people of God are transferred on the Day of Atonement, which goat is then sent away, "to Azazel in the wilderness", to bear those sins and iniquities away, can only be understood by reading it in Enoch.
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Unread 27th April 2010, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
Are you Roman Catholic, then?
What does being Roman Catholic have to do with anything? Is your question supposed to be like a boogey-man and scare me off?

Enoch was already called inspired Scripture before Rome decided that they would exclude Enoch from their list[canon means list] of books [Bible means collection of writings],
And your source for this statement is what?

but not all Christians ever followed Rome, and Enoch remained in the Bibles [collection of writings called sacred] of many early Christians and of the Ethiopian NT Church, where it remains in their Bible today.
I'm aware of the Ethiopian Canon. Are you saying you accept all the Ethiopic canon which includes Jubilees, Ethiopic-Maccabees, Josippon, the Epistle of Clement, the Deutero-Canonical books, two Books of the Covenant, four Books of Sinodos, and Didascalia? Or are you just picking and choosing your Ethiopian favorites?

Enoch is inspired Scripture. The early Church believed Enoch was inspired and many of them wrote that fact. The Jews who received Jesus believed Enoch was inspired. Jesus called it Scripture and quoted from its doctrines in His teachings.
There isn't much evidence that all Christians accepted it as inspired. Some did, no doubt.

Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
Enoch has all bearing on all Christian doctrines to do with these subjects:
Be careful quoting from the Book of Parables; that part isn't original to Enoch. And I see little bearing in the book on Christian doctrine. In fact, I think some of it is harmful to the Christian cause. Enoch is a book written by a Jewish sect of the 2nd Temple period who really have little to do with Christianity other than shedding some light on historical background.

2 The Lake of Fire made for the devil and his angels; who goes there and when and why
Yes, the angels in Enoch are literally the stars in the sky, many of which rebelled against God and are/are going to be punished for it. But you probably don't accept that part.

5 the calendar God established for all creation
Their calendar is quite a fictional creation as well as their explanation as to why their calendar was off.
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Unread 27th April 2010, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Yekcidmij View Post
What does being Roman Catholic have to do with anything? Is your question supposed to be like a boogey-man and scare me off?
No, it is an honest question to see why Rome is your authority on Enoch, as Rome alone is responsible for its ban in the western world and that was not done until almost four hundred years after the Church was founded. That is like saying the USA, which is only a bit over two hundred years old, has not had a constitution for the states ratified yet and will not have for another near two centuries, in comparison.
The Holy Spirit did not make a list so late in the age of the Church for all men to adhere to, and they certainly did not adhere to it, and so why should I or you? The early Church included Enoch, and the Jews of the Qumran community who were the royal priesthood heirs [sons of Zadok] had Enoch in their Bible [collection of books], as the Dead Sea Scrolls collection proves -just as those who became converts to the Gospel of Christ in Ethiopia did, and who never banned it and kept it in their collection.
If Rome is your authority and Pope on Enoch, then are you faithful to include in your Bible the books called the Apocrypha by the west?
If not why not, because the first English Protestant Bible and many others of them did include those books [as I do], and the archbishop of Canterbury of the 1611 King James Bible time cursed any who did not include those books in their Church readings. Over two hundred years after that first King James Bible's inclusion of those books in its printing; and because of politics alone, the archbishop of Canterbury of 1865 [I think the year was, you can find that on an apologetics site for Roman Catholicism] cursed anyone who did include those books in their Church readings. The point is that "canon" is politics of men, plain and simple, who hold power as popes over those who subject themselves to them; but still, there is not and never has been consensus, worldwide, for a "canon" in the Church which Jesus Christ alone is the head of, and which has many adherents on earth who do not have one earthly leader they bow to, because they believe that the one Head of the Church is Christ, and He is not in Rome, but in heaven. http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/canon2.stm

Even Martyn Luther did not concede a canon list as valid which Rome made, and the early Church men, whose writings we have, did not agree with the exclusion of Enoch from the list -like Tertullien and Origin- so there was no consensus even then, but only politics.
Did you know that Enoch has always been a part of the "canon/list" of books in the collections [Bible means a collection of writings/books] of other Christian Churches down through the centuries?

Enoch was the first book of eschatology, written pre-flood, and Enoch laid out the doctrines of God, by revelation, which were never re-laid in the OT or NT, but were treated as totally valid truth by those who came after him, and by Jesus Christ and His disciples and apostles.
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Unread 27th April 2010, 09:38 AM
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yeshuasavedme said; "Enoch was already called inspired Scripture before Rome decided that they would exclude Enoch from their list[canon means list] of books [Bible means collection of writings]"
Originally Posted by Yekcidmij View Post
And your source for this statement is what?
Church history, by the writings they all left. Are you unaware of that?
Barnabas, Tertullien, Origin, and many more called Enoch Scripture.

As to the Ethiopian Church canon, they have much that I do believe is as valid for doctrine and instruction as any included by Rome but which Rome in their list. I don;t ban any of their books, but that does not mean that I consider all books in the list as "thus saith YHWH", inspired by His breath, because not even the ancient Jews believed all in the books they collected were "thus saith YHWH", for there is included in the list of the ancients, besides the prophets who spoke by the inspiration of YHWH, histories, prose, and wisdom which none of is "thus saith YHWH". Ask a believing practicing Jew and they will tell you the same.
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Unread 27th April 2010, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Yekcidmij View Post
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme
Enoch has all bearing on all Christian doctrines to do with these subjects:
1 The Son of Man in heaven who was hidden/kept secret until His revealing, who was with God in secret, and who was God, and who was to come, and in whose name the redeemed would be saved.

2 The Lake of Fire made for the devil and his angels; who goes there and when and why

3 Sheol below earth -everything about it, who goes there, how long they remain, why they go there, and how the four hollows [Sheol means "hollow] are separated, with one for the redeemed souls to wait in comfort for the day of their release from that death of separation, when the Son of Man would rise from the dead and raise them from there.

4 the origin of demons and their judgment and why they roam earth and torment, afflict, seduce and deceive the sons of Adam

5 the calendar God established for all creation

6 the great tribulation as the second consummation of sin on earth, and the descriptions of that time to come

7 the reign of peace, the end of the curse for the earth, and the regeneration of the heavens and the earth

8 the angels in heaven do not marry nor take in marraige

the resurrected and translated saints will be equal with/companions of/like the angels in heaven

9 the rapture of the righteous before the tribulation

10 Why Azazel is given all sin, who Azazel is, and how that relates to the Atonement of Christ for our sins.
Be careful quoting from the Book of Parables; that part isn't original to Enoch. And I see little bearing in the book on Christian doctrine. In fact, I think some of it is harmful to the Christian cause. Enoch is a book written by a Jewish sect of the 2nd Temple period who really have little to do with Christianity other than shedding some light on historical background.[/quote]

Yes, the parables are original to Enoch, as Jesus quotes from them specifically, many times, but I will not do your own study for you on that, nor post all of them, which you can go learn for yourself; and anyone, using Enoch's book, can prove the parables are part of the collection of Enoch's writings by just reading the rest of the book, for it correlates totally to what is in the "parables".
Is is totally a fabrication to make a claim that Enoch was written by a Jew, as it is not a Jewish book, but pre-Jewish and is about Jesus as the Christ who was the Son of Man in heaven seen in secret there, by Enoch alone. That fact is why the Christ rejecting Jews of the first century made a "canon list" only after Christ rose from the dead, and banned Enoch, -That is also history which you can go learn for yourself.
And we do not know that the parables are not found in the Dead Sea Scrolls because not all of them were allowed to be known; and in more recent times it has come out that they did believe the passages about the Son of Man in heaven being the Messiah, because some formerly hidden manuscripts were leaked out, and are now published that relate that very fact. Its all politics and power over the minds of men who subject themselves to men as their spiritual guides, even there, as those who reject Christ will reject everything that is written about His being the Messiah, who was to come and is come.
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Unread 27th April 2010, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Yekcidmij View Post

...
Yes, the angels in Enoch are literally the stars in the sky, many of which rebelled against God and are/are going to be punished for it. But you probably don't accept that part.
...
Their calendar is quite a fictional creation as well as their explanation as to why their calendar was off.
the stars are called angels in the OT and NT, too, but in Enoch, there are more stars which are parables of -
"43 And I saw other lightnings and the stars of heaven, and I saw how He called them all by their names and they hearkened unto Him. 2And I saw how they are weighed in a righteous balance according to their proportions of light: I saw the width of their spaces and the day of their appearing, and how their revolution produces lightning: and I saw their revolution according to the number of the angels, and how they keep faith with each other.
3And I asked the angel who went with me who showed me what was hidden: 4"What are these?"
And he said to me: "The Lord of Spirits hath showed thee their parabolic meaning: these are the names of the holy who dwell on the earth and believe in the name of the Lord of Spirits for ever and ever."


The calendar Enoch was shown is God's calendar. From its creation to forever, it is the same. Men have made a mess of discovering and using it, but God has not changed it, and it is still the same, in His heavens. I used to think it was not possible to calculate the years because of the mess men have made, but using Enoch, one actually can calculate the years from one year to another, because they are the same as they have always been, being measured exactly as Enoch was shown by the angel.
Here is instruction for you from a Jew who wrote on that subject, and why the calendar must be restored for Israel to have its temple and be correct in fulfilling God's feast days as He gave them to them to rehearse for perpetuity, until all is fulfilled.
-This man writes it, about the Jubilee Calendar, which is Enoch's calendar.

THE JUBILEE CALENDAR by Mikhael Bauer[wash my mouth
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