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  #11  
Old 14th April 2010, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Davidnic View Post
Not true. COBRA has had government funding since February 17, 2009.
Yes, I am sorry I miswrote. But the program didn't have government funding until last year. The Senate is now debating an extention of that new program. Yet not a word from USCCB or NRTL. Nor was there a word in February -- other than support from the bishops. And all of this as the health care debate is going on.



Yes. George Bush was not pro-life.
But why the endorsement of the NRTL Committee and the silence of the bishops on this yet the load protests on the health care bill?

And, I appreciate your thoughtful comments, but also why the silence of those on this board who were most stridently against health care reform?
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  #12  
Old 14th April 2010, 04:41 PM
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Let me just add that Thomas Peters at "CatholicVoteAction" is almost in "high meltdown" over this scandal being exposed. He is terrified of having to explain how the Jobs bill does not fund abortion but Health Care Reform does.
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  #13  
Old 14th April 2010, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by KatherineS View Post
Let me just add that Thomas Peters at "CatholicVoteAction" is almost in "high meltdown" over this scandal being exposed. He is terrified of having to explain how the Jobs bill does not fund abortion but Health Care Reform does.

Well, I do not see how the jobs bill does. But either way...no one should ever fear applying the ethic of life consistently.
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  #14  
Old 14th April 2010, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Davidnic View Post
Well, I do not see how the jobs bill does.
How does the health care bill do it?

They both start with the same principle -- the federal government gives a subsidy for the purchase of a health insurance policy. Early versions of the health care bill didn't prohibit using the subsidy for a policy that included abortion. The final version did. In the health care bill the subsidies are on a sliding scale based on income.

With COBRA, there is a flat 65% subsidy. The person does not pick a policy but applies the subsidy to the insurance plan he had while working. There is nothing making him ineligible if the plan includes abortion.

This is really simple and straightforward. What is puzzling is the total absence of any objection from the pro-life leadership or the USCCB.
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  #15  
Old 15th April 2010, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by KatherineS View Post
How does the health care bill do it?
Because the health care bill created a new mechanism: The Exchange. And that draws funding from a different source from those covered by Hyde. So it expanded abortion by giving access to potentially millions more. The Bishops objected to the initial COBRA expansion in 2009 under the stimulus. Same as they did the health care bill. The reason they are not objecting to the jobs bill is that the COBRA issue is already law and the jobs bill will not expand federal funding by giving it to potentially millions more.

The reason they chose health care to make a huge stand is because it was such a huge expansion of what the federal government funded, 18% if the US private economy. So they chose there to make a vocal stand because of the enormity. They opposed COBRA expansion in 2009, they opposed the Health Care Bill.

If the intention is to somehow make the Bishops inconsistent, I can make the case (and will) that on issues of life the Bishops have been the most consistent on life issues than anyone. They have spoken recently on many issues that make the right angry. Immigration, huge statement recently. And remember Lou Dobbs going after the Pope when he was here and dared to mention that immigrants had human rights. Or Glen Beck (King Wingnut) going after the whole Church because the far right oppose our longstanding Social Justice Doctrine. Or how the Bishops opposed nuclear escalation long before anyone else. Or how they oppose vocally every execution in this country.

I can give thousands of more examples of how the Bishops have been even, fair and non-political. People just want them to be painted as political because those on the left can not grasp that Abortion (as a life issue) comes before all others and is more important than all others because it deals with the seminal right that is the necessary one for all other rights. And the right can not accept that there is an obligation after birth that is far more socially left than they want.
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Bob Casey Sr.



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  #16  
Old 15th April 2010, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Davidnic View Post
Because the health care bill created a new mechanism: The Exchange. And that draws funding from a different source from those covered by Hyde.
But the bill prohbits federal funding from being used to buy abortion coverage on the Exchange. There is no need for the Hyde Amendment, because ithe abortion funding prohibition is written into the law

The Bishops objected to the initial COBRA expansion in 2009 under the stimulus.
The letter I saw from USCCB said they supported the COBRA subsidies. Can you share with your source for their opposition?
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  #17  
Old 15th April 2010, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by KatherineS View Post
But the bill prohbits federal funding from being used to buy abortion coverage on the Exchange. There is no need for the Hyde Amendment, because ithe abortion funding prohibition is written into the law
Not entirely true, there was some funny language. And actually in order to prevent abortions from being funded in the exchange states must block it specifically. Like 6 have just done. And pro-abortion groups are opposing them exactly because to allow it increases access to abortion.


The letter I saw from USCCB said they supported the COBRA subsidies. Can you share with your source for their opposition?[/quote]

The Bishops support the new extension of unemployment benefits including extending COBRA to people who need it. They opposed the initial extension in Feb 09 when they listed their hopes for the stimulus package that contained it. They asked that the package not contain an increase access to aboriton or contraception but focus on helping the poor and needy. Please share your letter where they support the COBRA extensions. The only one I can find is 2/11/09 from the committee on Domestic Justice and Human development where they support:


"the Houseís provisions reforming Unemployment Insurance benefits (UI) that provide for 12 months of subsidy for jobless workers who qualify for COBRA continuation coverage, rather than that offered by the Senate. In addition, the House makes Medicaid available to the large numbers of workers who did not have a COBRA option or canít afford COBRA even with the new subsidy."

But that is not a support of increasing access to abortion since they are on record hundreds of other places against anything that circumvents Hyde. And the UI does not do that.

And remember like I said earlier:

If the intention is to somehow make the Bishops inconsistent, I can make the case (and will) that on issues of life the Bishops have been the most consistent on life issues than anyone. They have spoken recently on many issues that make the right angry. Immigration, huge statement recently. And remember Lou Dobbs going after the Pope when he was here and dared to mention that immigrants had human rights. Or Glen Beck (King Wingnut) going after the whole Church because the far right oppose our longstanding Social Justice Doctrine. Or how the Bishops opposed nuclear escalation long before anyone else. Or how they oppose vocally every execution in this country.
All COBRA does is allow someone to keep the insurance they had before losing their jobs. The Bishops can not control if that company offered abortion coverage. So the UI is not an increase in the availability of abortions. To present it as such is wrong. There is a massive difference between supporting the UI and supporting the health care reform.

You have a better argument in saying that the bishops oppose abortion funding from the federal government, but do not oppose taxes going to a war that they declared unjust. But then again, they do. They often speak against the increase weapons spending and increase in destructive tech.
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If pregnancy presents a challenge, do we as a society rise to the challenge by dispensing with the child? And when a pregnancy comes at a difficult time, what is the worthier response? Do we surround mother and child with protection and love, or do we hold out to her the cold comfort of a trip to an abortionist? Where is our true character as a nation to be seen - let's ask ourselves this question: Where is our true character to be seen, in an adoptive home, or in an abortion clinic? Who are we? Who are we America? That question deserves an answer.
Bob Casey Sr.



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  #18  
Old 15th April 2010, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Davidnic View Post
Not entirely true, there was some funny language. And actually in order to prevent abortions from being funded in the exchange states must block it specifically. Like 6 have just done. And pro-abortion groups are opposing them exactly because to allow it increases access to abortion.
No. Funding for abortion is explicitedly prohibited. The "funny language" that you are referring to says that an insurance company offering plans on the Exchange may offer a rider that is paid for separetely and wholely by the individual and that covers abortion. And states may prohibit even this (I hope they do and I am not surprised the abortion rights groups are fighting it. What I am more impressed with is that Pro-Life groups are finally fighting abortion in private health care plans. They have been rather AWOL from this fight).


The Bishops support the new extension of unemployment benefits including extending COBRA to people who need it.
So, they are supporting federal dollars for insurance plans that provide abortions.


"the House’s provisions reforming Unemployment Insurance benefits (UI) that provide for 12 months of subsidy for jobless workers who qualify for COBRA continuation coverage, rather than that offered by the Senate. In addition, the House makes Medicaid available to the large numbers of workers who did not have a COBRA option or can’t afford COBRA even with the new subsidy."

But that is not a support of increasing access to abortion since they are on record hundreds of other places
The text you posted clearly asks members of Congress to vote "YES" on the House bill. They did not say "oppose this legislation until the abortion funding is taken out."

All COBRA does is allow someone to keep the insurance they had before losing their jobs. The Bishops can not control if that company offered abortion coverage.
But they can control their support for government subsidies of company insurance plans that cover abortion.

It would be different if we had single payer or the public option (which I would have welcomed). But the Health Care bill as passed does the same thing as the Jobs bill. It offers a government subsidy to people purchasing private health insurance. Only with the health care bill, if you want abortion coverage, you must pay for it separetely and without government funds; it cannot be a part of the basic plan. With COBRA subsidies, there are no such restrictions.

Lastly, david, I appreciate your thoughtful posts, even if I disagree with you. What I am amazed by is the silence here of many other psoters who tend to be quite vocal about their views on abortion policy.
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  #19  
Old 15th April 2010, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by KatherineS View Post
Lastly, david, I appreciate your thoughtful posts, even if I disagree with you. What I am amazed by is the silence here of many other psoters who tend to be quite vocal about their views on abortion policy.
I appreciate your posts too. Even though we, sadly, disagree here. We do have all the stuff we agree about as a brother and sister in Christ and the Church.
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If pregnancy presents a challenge, do we as a society rise to the challenge by dispensing with the child? And when a pregnancy comes at a difficult time, what is the worthier response? Do we surround mother and child with protection and love, or do we hold out to her the cold comfort of a trip to an abortionist? Where is our true character as a nation to be seen - let's ask ourselves this question: Where is our true character to be seen, in an adoptive home, or in an abortion clinic? Who are we? Who are we America? That question deserves an answer.
Bob Casey Sr.



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Old 15th April 2010, 02:34 PM
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This question is easily solved: If the bishops are against the bill, they are right. If the bishops support the bill, they are wrong and acting against tradition and the teachings of the Catholic Church. If they support the bill, they are modernists and could get excommunicated.
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