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19th April 2010, 06:48 PM
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Reps: 658,971,909,604 (power: 658,971,911) | | | Phoebe, I have edited my post.
Please do accept my apologies.
Last edited by 3*8**; 19th April 2010 at 06:56 PM.
Reason: Fixed spelling
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19th April 2010, 08:51 PM
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Reps: 69,818,255,088,841,400 (power: 69,818,255,088,865) | | Originally Posted by 3*8**  Phoebe, I have edited my post.
Please do accept my apologies.
I appreciate that!  |
19th April 2010, 09:26 PM
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Reps: 69,818,255,088,841,400 (power: 69,818,255,088,865) | | Originally Posted by 3*8** Seek to be worthy of praise
Phoebe Ann, what of verse 10?
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Verse 10 is wonderful! It shows that believer is a new creature, a workmanship of God, a child of light, a person who strives to be obedient unto the good works he was ordained to walk in.
Acts 26
16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (Ephesians 5:8)
Titus 3
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.(2 Corinthians 5:17)
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19th April 2010, 10:23 PM
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Reps: 69,354,585,041,534 (power: 69,354,585,059) | | Originally Posted by Phoebe Ann No one has ever told you that. Read my posts.
Actually, very little is told at all, mostly quotes without comment on what it means.
As to the "read my posts" - again, a resort to an attack on a person's ability to understand when they disagree with you. This is "exactly" what I meant. This demonstrates how "hardly" is actually a common occurance. Originally Posted by Phoebe Ann No, I never spoke against keeping God's commandments. Of course, you know that.
I don't know what you spoke against. If you don't comment, you haven't spoke against anything - or for anything as far as that goes. And what you definately haven't explained is how this works with working out your own salvation. I would like to request that you clearly state what you mean. Originally Posted by Phoebe Ann You seem to be unable to answer my questions. If you believe I haven't answered yours, I guess you didn't understand my replies.
Again - attack my ability to understand. "Hardly"? or "Exactly"?
However, what I find particularly interesting about these comments, is that they are made in response to the cut and pasting of Bible quotes. There was no question to be answered at that point in the post. So, I'm guessing that it was more important to zip out the comment about my understanding than it is to respond to the points I have made. Originally Posted by Phoebe Ann If we are all undeserving sinners, we all deserve the wages of sin.
That skips around the point I made, pretty much making it a non-answer. Originally Posted by Phoebe Ann How is His fault? He made man and God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.
You're kidding - right? The claim that you are making is that man has no choice in the matter - only God does. And it isn't clear how that makes it entirely God's fault? If we can't help ourselves, but only follow our evil nature - it sure isn't our fault. In that scenario, man is being the only way he can be. In your scenario only God can choose to have man do good and thus prevent the evil which He supposedly cannot abide.
As far as the comment about making man and seeing that it was good - that completely contradicts all of your comments about the base nature of man and how man cannot choose good. If man is good, then either it is not as you have been saying or God thinks it good that man is evil and unable to choose to do good. Do you really think that is reasonable?
It sounds as if scriptures are thrown out to argue against whatever point is being made and no effort is going into looking at them as a whole. Man is evil. No, man is good. Make up your mind. Originally Posted by Phoebe Ann D&C 76
41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;
42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;
You don't believe in the D&C. Feel free to stick to the Bible to support your interpretations. Originally Posted by Phoebe Ann Hmmm... 
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20th April 2010, 12:46 AM
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Reps: 69,818,255,088,841,400 (power: 69,818,255,088,865) | | Originally Posted by Ran77 Actually, very little is told at all, mostly quotes without comment on what it means.
As to the "read my posts" - again, a resort to an attack on a person's ability to understand when they disagree with you. This is "exactly" what I meant. This demonstrates how "hardly" is actually a common occurance.
You seem to want everything I say to be an attack on you. I can assure you it isn't. Anyone can read a post and overlook something. So how am I to know if you understand something or just miss the explanation? I've explained the very topic of man's need for a Savior to you several times over the past several years. You either overlook my posts, don't understand them, just plain dislike what they say, or want to play games. I won't venture a guess.
Originally Posted by Ran77 I don't know what you spoke against.
Do you know if I spoke for or against anything?
Originally Posted by Ran77 If you don't comment, you haven't spoke against anything - or for anything as far as that goes.
I've commented.
Originally Posted by Ran77 And what you definately haven't explained is how this works with working out your own salvation. I would like to request that you clearly state what you mean.
I explained. You either overlooked my explanations in this and other threads, didn't understand them, just plain disliked what I said, or want to play games.
Originally Posted by Ran77 Again - attack my ability to understand. "Hardly"? or "Exactly"?
If I ever attack your intelligence or character, it is unintentional, but I do hope you'll use the report feature.
Originally Posted by Ran77 ... It sounds as if scriptures are thrown out to argue against whatever point is being made and no effort is going into looking at them as a whole. Man is evil. No, man is good. Make up your mind.
I don't have to make up my mind. I'll just rely on God's word. God made man in the beginning and God was pleased. When Adam freely chose to disobey God, Adam brought sin into the world. All men are born with a fallen nature and thus all men need a Savior.
I would appreciate it if you would stop responding to my posts and I will likewise stop responding to yours. Thank you. |
20th April 2010, 12:59 AM
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Reps: 658,971,909,604 (power: 658,971,911) | | | Enlightened Christians
Originally Posted by RufustheRed Lost by when? At what time did these "plain and precious truths concerning God and man" fall amongst the missing? Are you saying that the early church concept of deification is basically the same as the LDS concept? How is it the same and/or different? Does the word theosis ring a bell?
Rufus
Different interpretations of the bible amongst the various denominations is what led young Joseph to pray.
Different denomination did and still do agree with many of doctrines of the LDS church. He described the churches of his day as "... having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."
Recently I posted a link in the lexicon thread to an article about Christians that understand the true definition of the word "soul". Another linked excerpt follows that shows that Christian churches not only did, but that some still do subscribe to the doctrine of deification aka theosis.
The Catholic church serves as a a solid example of one that adheres to "Apostolic Authority" and a proper understanding of the phrase "faith without works is dead".
Some "bible only" Christians also understand that the risen Christ has a glorified body of flesh and bones. These are all aspects of the true gospel that we LDS share with our enlightened Christian neighbors.
I decided to look up theosis on Wikipedia, and found this interesting quote from St Ireneaus (who lived 130-202 AD.) He is considered a saint in both the Catholic and Orthodox churches. “St. Irenaeus explained this concept in Against Heresies, Book 5, in the Preface, “the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself.”
It seems to me that mormons have much in common with this idea of theosis. This sounds quite similar to Lorenzo Snow’s quote, “As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be.” Comments? Mormon Heretic » Eastern Orthodoxy: Theosis/Deification
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20th April 2010, 03:26 AM
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Reps: 69,818,255,088,841,400 (power: 69,818,255,088,865) | | Originally Posted by 3*8** I decided to look up theosis on Wikipedia, and found this interesting quote from St Ireneaus (who lived 130-202 AD.) He is considered a saint in both the Catholic and Orthodox churches. “St. Irenaeus explained this concept in Against Heresies, Book 5, in the Preface, “the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself.”
It seems to me that mormons have much in common with this idea of theosis. This sounds quite similar to Lorenzo Snow’s quote, “As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be.” Comments?
I'm not Rufus, but I can tell you that the Eastern Orthodox doctrine of theosis is not that men attain godhood. Eastern Orthodox believe in only one Triune God.
In Christian theology, particularly in Eastern Orthodox theology, theosis (written also: theiosis, theopoiesis, theōsis; Greek: Θέωσις, meaning divinization, deification, or making divine) is the process of transformation of a believer who is putting into practise (called praxis) the spiritual teachings of Jesus Christ and His gospel. In particular, theosis refers to the attainment of likeness to or union with God, that is the final stage of this process of transformation and is as such the goal of the spiritual life. Theosis is the third of three stages; the first being purification (katharsis) and the second illumination (theoria). By means of purification a person comes to illumination and then sainthood. Sainthood is the participation of the person in the life of God. According to this doctrine, the holy life of God, given in Jesus Christ to the believer through the Holy Spirit, is expressed through the three stages of theosis, beginning in the struggles of this life, which increases in the experience of the believer through the knowledge of God, and is later consummated in the resurrection of the believer, when the power of sin and death, having been fully overcome by the atonement of Jesus, will lose hold over the believer forever.[1]
Theosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(This is closer to Protestant teaching than it is to LDS teaching).
Joseph Smith taught, "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" and "We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity....You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a greater one; from grace to grace."
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 346-47)
"Mortal persons who overcome all things and gain an ultimate exaltation will live eternally in the family unit and have spirit children, thus becoming Eternal Fathers and Mothers."
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.517
Spencer W. Kimball taught:
“Each one of you has it within the realm of his possibility to develop a kingdom over which you will preside as its king and god. You will need to develop yourself and grow in ability and power and worthiness, to govern such a world with all of its people. You are sent to this earth not merely to have a good time or to satisfy urges or passions or desires. You are sent to this earth, not to ride merry-go-rounds, airplanes, automobiles, and have what the world calls ‘fun.’
“You are sent to this world with a very serious purpose. You are sent to school, for that matter, to begin as a human infant and grow to unbelievable proportions in wisdom, judgment, knowledge, and power. That is why you and I cannot be satisfied with saying merely ‘I like that or want that.’ That is why in our childhood and our youth and our young adulthood we must stretch and grow and remember and prepare for the later life when limitations will terminate so that we can go on and on and on” (Spencer W. Kimball, “. . . the Matter of Marriage” [address delivered at University of Utah Institute of Religion, 22 Oct. 1976], 2). - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, Chapter 10
Bold mine |
20th April 2010, 12:20 PM
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Reps: 69,354,585,041,534 (power: 69,354,585,059) | | Originally Posted by mormonheretic I just got a notification that someone linked to my old post on theosis. Thanks! I must say I am really bothered by the title of this forum, "Mormons Doubt that their God is Infinite". Such sensational headlines are far from accurate, and really unproductive to interfaith dialogue. I would like to weigh in on this issue, but I am concerned that people who create such headlines and are more interested in disinformation. Such people are not really concerned with helping Mormons understand the truth, but rather want to distort and misrepresent Mormon thought. I haven't read all the comments here, but let me ask this question. Phoebe, are you interested in obtaining accurate Mormon beliefs to better understand us, or are you simply interested in tearing down our faith so that we become more like protestants?
Additionally, there are other quotes in my post from early Christians. Rather than address sensational Mormon quotes, could you address Athanasius and St Ireneaus? For example, "We are changed so that we become like God, or Eastern theologians will say it even more strongly than that. As Athanasius put it, ‘God became man, that man might become God.’ That’s theosis, or deification.
That sounds suspiciously like Pres Kimball or Joseph Smith, doesn't it? If you go further in the post, it says
"Well, that strikes the western mind as kind of a problematic way to understand theology and to understand the transforming effect of grace. The eastern mind though sees that as the real purpose of Christ coming into the world, to transform us that we become like him. In some ways, we can see that if we’re talking about union with Christ, or becoming more and more like Christ or becoming more and more like God. But in the eastern expression of theosis, it is stated so strongly that Christ became man, that we might become God that most western thinkers pull back from that. It sounds like a kind of heresy of some sort. I expect closer examination of the eastern idea of theosis, will reveal that the eastern theology doesn’t for the most part, go over the line, but it uses language that can be suggested of something that western Christians would want to avoid."
I think you make some good points.
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Last edited by twob4me; 24th April 2010 at 06:41 PM.
Reason: Staff edit to edit quoted post which has been edited
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20th April 2010, 02:13 PM
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Reps: 20,732,757,815,753,600 (power: 20,732,757,815,773) | | Originally Posted by mormonheretic I just got a notification that someone linked to my old post on theosis. Thanks! I must say I am really bothered by the title of this forum, "Mormons Doubt that their God is Infinite". Such sensational headlines are far from accurate, and really unproductive to interfaith dialogue. I would like to weigh in on this issue, but I am concerned that people who create such headlines and are more interested in disinformation. Such people are not really concerned with helping Mormons understand the truth, but rather want to distort and misrepresent Mormon thought. I haven't read all the comments here, but let me ask this question. Phoebe, are you interested in obtaining accurate Mormon beliefs to better understand us, or are you simply interested in tearing down our faith so that we become more like protestants?
Hi Mormonheretic,
Welcome to CF. 
I noticed that you criticized the person who started this thread, and then proceeded to ask Phoebe Ann a question as though she was the person who started the thread. She was not. A person by the name of "Dale" started the thread. I don't think that Dales few posts on this thread are evidence that he is trying to distort and misrepresent Mormon thought. Perhaps when he came across these LDS beliefs mentioned in the OP, he was surprised at the difference from traditional Christian beliefs and wanted to discuss it. However, the thread did quickly drift off topic. Additionally, there are other quotes in my post from early Christians. Rather than address sensational Mormon quotes, could you address Athanasius and St Ireneaus? For example, "We are changed so that we become like God, or Eastern theologians will say it even more strongly than that. As Athanasius put it, ‘God became man, that man might become God.’ That’s theosis, or deification.
Reading the comments on your blog, I noticed a comment by a poster who appears to be an Orthodox Christian. He explained that theosis and the LDS view of deification are not the same thing. The difference between the two ideas is this. For the Orthodox, we become partakers of the divine nature via the activities or energies of God and not the divine essence, which remains unparticipatable. What are the energies? They are activities such as knowledge, will, divine light, love, etc. We do not become another instance of the same kind of being God is.
Phoebe Ann was correct when she wrote of theosis as being a union with God, and being perfected. Theosis does not teach that we will become the same kind of being that God is.
__________________ There exists a mystery in the world, and in all the looks of it—a mystery because of a meaning. There is a jubilance in every sunrise, a sober sadness in every sunset. There is a whispering of strange secrets in the wind of twilight and an unknown bliss in the song of the lark.
George MacDonald
Last edited by twob4me; 24th April 2010 at 06:42 PM.
Reason: Staff edit to edit out last quote and response to it as that quote has been deleted.
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20th April 2010, 03:56 PM
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Reps: 9,223,372,036,854,775,808 (power: 9,223,372,036,854,800) | | Originally Posted by 3*8** <snip>
A passage that follows from Acts 8 describes what in means to be born of water (Baptism by immersion, going into the water symbolizes the grave, in the name of Jesus Christ, by the power of the Aaronic priesthood which key was bestowed upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdrey by John the Baptist,<snip>
Did John the Baptist have a head at the time since he is still awaiting the resurrection or was he headless as he was when his body was buried? If he had a head where did he get it? | | |
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