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  #91  
Unread 30th March 2010, 09:59 AM
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I believe what I write is pricking your conscience.
Yes. My conscience compels me to expose many of your claims as the antithesis of Christ's teachings - a false teaching cloaked in Christianity, but unChristian at its core.

Repeating ad nauseum is not debating, faith guardian.
Repeating ad nauseum does not amount to sound argument, Clirus. Once your arguments have been refuted, by either taking them to their final logical destination or by using Scripture, you repeat those same arguments ad nauseum as though they had never been addressed and knocked down. Endless repetition is your strategy. Endless repetition does not, and will never, substitute for a sound argument.
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  #92  
Unread 30th March 2010, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by clirus View Post
I believe Socialism is anything that is not freewill personal charity.
Well that's not what socialism is. Assigning an arbitrary word to something else is just begging for a misunderstanding.

Three of the main reasons that I do not like Socialism are:

1) Socialism does not differentiate between good and evil and thus is contrary with the Bible.
Neither does capitalism. Neither does cookery, or the highway code, or the rules of football.

2) Socialism tends to prevent people from a self examination to remove something that is sin that is causing their problem and thus is contrary to the Bible.
You are impossible, you know that? As far as I can tell, you consider atheism to be pretty much the biggest sin of all. How, then, is Norway, a predominantly nonreligious country (with exceptions, faithguardian), one of the most prosperous countries in the world. Why aren't you, clirus, the richest person on earth? What about Africa? Far more religious than Norway but they are constantly wracked by famine, war and disease. What about the Middle East? Overwhelmingly Muslim, but they have been blessed with control of the world's largest oil reserves, making the region hugely prosperous. You always say that you believe not being a christian leads to death, disease and poverty. Basic logic dictates that if we can show you one argument to the contrary, your position crumbles. We repeatedly show you examples of where your argument falls down, but you just cut and paste the same argument over and over again, without even acknowledging that someone has responded to you.

3) Socialism always ends up with forced wealth redistribution, which I believe is basically stealing.

Some say taxes are wealth redistribution, but I believe taxes are only wealth redistribution when things are taken from most people and given to a few people.
Wealth redistribution is the redistribution of wealth. It is moving wealth from one place to another. The numbers involved are really irrelevant. You can't just change the definition of words, it's confusing for everyone.

And some would say that monopolistic corporations controlling prices and manipulating public opinion through advertising amounts to forced wealth distribution as well. At least under socialism, the wealth has the potential of being reinvested into society, as opposed to lining the pockets of the rich.

A Capitalist would be perfectly willing to see a road build by the government even if a few did not own cars because they could not afford cars.

A Socialists would be not be willing to see a road build by the government unless the government also provided a car to those that could not afford a car.
I am a socialist. Although I would prefer public transport like rail, because it is better environmentally, I have no problem with building a road on taxpayers' money. Of course, I would also try and increase economic mobility to such a degree that the majority of the population could afford a car if they so wished.

Capitalism creates unequal prosperity, and Socialism creates equal poverty.
Norway. Look it up.

Taxes should be used when they benefit most instead of just benefiting a few, no matter how pitiful the story.
So when the top 1% control more wealth than the bottom 90%, taking money from them to give to the 90% benefits the many, and only inconveniences a few. Careful, ounds like you're advocating socialism!
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  #93  
Unread 31st March 2010, 08:55 AM
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To peadar1987

peadar1987 quote

You are impossible, you know that? As far as I can tell, you consider atheism to be pretty much the biggest sin of all. How, then, is Norway, a predominantly nonreligious country (with exceptions, faithguardian), one of the most prosperous countries in the world. Why aren't you, clirus, the richest person on earth? What about Africa? Far more religious than Norway but they are constantly wracked by famine, war and disease. What about the Middle East? Overwhelmingly Muslim, but they have been blessed with control of the world's largest oil reserves, making the region hugely prosperous. You always say that you believe not being a christian leads to death, disease and poverty. Basic logic dictates that if we can show you one argument to the contrary, your position crumbles. We repeatedly show you examples of where your argument falls down, but you just cut and paste the same argument over and over again, without even acknowledging that someone has responded to you.

Response

Yes, Atheism is the biggest sin of all, because it violates the first commandment of the Ten Commandments of the Old Testament and the Great Commandment of the New Testament.

I responded the question of why Norway is prosperous and no one refuted the reasons, not even faith guardian.

You are confusing other religions with the Christian religion which requires a person to accept Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and commit to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.

Were the oil reserves from God or Satan?

There is physical evidence that Atheistic activities (adultery and homosexuality) do lead to disease, death, destruction and poverty.

I listen to what you say, evaluate it, then give you my opinion.

peadar1987 quote

So when the top 1% control more wealth than the bottom 90%, taking money from them to give to the 90% benefits the many, and only inconveniences a few. Careful, ounds like you're advocating socialism!

Response

The top 1% may control more wealth than the bottom 90%, but you must first prove the 1% are violating Civil Law or God's Law in order to justify taking/stealing money from them. Maybe you are violating God's will that the 1% use their riches to assist the Church in spreading the good news of Jesus Christ.

In the case of poverty, I believe the poverty exists in the minority and thus the taking/stealing money is from the majority to the minority.

If taking/stealing money from the majority and giving to the minority (Socialism) did any real good I would be for it, but I really do not believe Socialism works

Socialism is giving a man a fish, Christianity is teaching a man to fish.
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  #94  
Unread 31st March 2010, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by LightHorseman View Post
Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.

[/thread]
That statement shows to me Jesus had a sense of humor.

What belongs to Caesar?

It was like Jesus was saying, render nothing to Caesar, because nothing belongs to Caesar.
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  #95  
Unread 31st March 2010, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by clirus View Post
That statement shows to me Jesus had a sense of humor.

What belongs to Caesar?

It was like Jesus was saying, render nothing to Caesar, because nothing belongs to Caesar.
I am GOBSMACKED.

This is, without a doubt, quite the most blatant misreading of scripture I have EVER seen.
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  #96  
Unread 31st March 2010, 09:09 AM
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To faith guardian

faith guardian quote

Your views regarding poverty are abominable in my opinion and I know many others here share the same view. I have addressed your views in conversations with Lutheran and Baptist ministers and theologians because I don't understand where you come from. The answer has been slight variations of the following: "The person who wrote this fails to take the new covenant into consideration, and has totally missed the message Jesus Christ gave us".

Response

I am really interested in a better understanding of how my understanding of the Bible "fails to take the new covenant into consideration, and has totally missed the message Jesus Christ gave us".

I am aware that some believe the New Covenant means you throw away the Old Testament of the Bible, but then they are just a bad as the Half Gospel Preachers that will only preach God's Love and refuse to preach God's Righteousness.

Maybe the Lutheran and Baptist ministers and theologians could give me better understanding if they spoke for themselves.
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  #97  
Unread 31st March 2010, 09:15 AM
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I listen to what you say, evaluate it, then give you my opinion.
You listen to what other's say. You don't like what you hear, and regardless of all proof, you discard it.

In the case of poverty, I believe the poverty exists in the minority and thus the taking/stealing money is from the majority to the minority.
You believe that poverty exists in the minority? Under which rock have you been living for the last several centuries?
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  #98  
Unread 31st March 2010, 09:16 AM
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I am really interested in a better understanding of how my understanding of the Bible "fails to take the new covenant into consideration, and has totally missed the message Jesus Christ gave us".
That has already been explained to you, countless times, and is by now self-evident.
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  #99  
Unread 31st March 2010, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by clirus View Post
Yes, Atheism is the biggest sin of all, because it violates the first commandment of the Ten Commandments of the Old Testament and the Great Commandment of the New Testament.
So why amn't I poor and diseased?

I responded the question of why Norway is prosperous and no one refuted the reasons, not even faith guardian.
You said low expectations, if I remember correctly. Low expectations do not inflate hard statistics.

Were the oil reserves from God or Satan?
Does is matter? You said not being a christian leads to death and disease, not to wealth and prosperity due to Satan.

There is physical evidence that Atheistic activities (adultery and homosexuality) do lead to disease, death, destruction and poverty.

I listen to what you say, evaluate it, then give you my opinion.
These aren't atheistic activities. I'm an atheist, I'm not a homosexual. I don't have a wife, so I can't commit adultery. When I get married, I'm going to be faithful, not because of religion, but because, believe it or not, I'm a decent enough guy. And you have never addressed the fact that most HIV transmission is between heterosexuals.

The top 1% may control more wealth than the bottom 90%, but you must first prove the 1% are violating Civil Law or God's Law in order to justify taking/stealing money from them. Maybe you are violating God's will that the 1% use their riches to assist the Church in spreading the good news of Jesus Christ.
Abortions aren't violating civil law. Homosexuality isn't violating civil law. You still think those are immoral, so you must think that civil law isn't infallible.

In the case of poverty, I believe the poverty exists in the minority and thus the taking/stealing money is from the majority to the minority.

If taking/stealing money from the majority and giving to the minority (Socialism) did any real good I would be for it, but I really do not believe Socialism works

Socialism is giving a man a fish, Christianity is teaching a man to fish.
Norway.
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  #100  
Unread 31st March 2010, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by clirus View Post
..... Response

The top 1% may control more wealth than the bottom 90%, but you must first prove the 1% are violating Civil Law or God's Law in order to justify taking/stealing money from them. Maybe you are violating God's will that the 1% use their riches to assist the Church in spreading the good news of Jesus Christ.

In the case of poverty, I believe the poverty exists in the minority and thus the taking/stealing money is from the majority to the minority.

If taking/stealing money from the majority and giving to the minority (Socialism) did any real good I would be for it, but I really do not believe socialism works

Socialism is giving a man a fish, Christianity is teaching a man to fish.
Clirus would have us believe that the 1% of the population in the US control more of the wealth of the nation than the other 90% because that somehow they are more deserving or that one person, Bill Gates, works harder than the combined efforts of 120 million Americans

Are to believe that between 1990 and 2005 it was just a matter of chance that the top 1% received most of the economic benefits, while the average American worker received only a 4% increase in their purchasing power while those on minimum wage experienced an approximate 10% decline.
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