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  #1  
Old 14th March 2010, 02:25 PM
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All scripture God Breathed?

Timothy states that all scripture is God breathed etc, what scripture is he talking about, he only had the OT and not the Bible in its present form including the NT scritures.
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  #2  
Old 14th March 2010, 11:34 PM
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Not exactly.

Peter calls Paul's writings scripture.

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

And Paul calls Matthew and Luke's works scripture.

1 Tim. 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward.

Deut. 25:4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out [the corn].

Luke 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.

Mt. 10:10 Nor scrip for [your] journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

Those are the clearest, simpelist references, but it'd be easy enough to assemble the remainder (that's already 19 of the 27) as God-breathed.

Okay?

PS. Jesus renamed James and John the two sons of Zebedee the sons of thunder. Know why? James was the first apostle to die and John the last apostle. All of scripture from eyewitnesses to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ was written and passed around and viewed as God-breathed scripture. Zebedee means gift of God. The NT, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ was a gift. Wouldn't you agree?
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Last edited by Standing Up; 14th March 2010 at 11:39 PM.
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  #3  
Old 15th March 2010, 09:59 AM
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It might be highly possible that Paul was talking about the OT only, although some letters had been already written by then.
But Jesus, just before ascending into Heaven, said to His disciples to teach (those they baptize) everything that He commanded. We know that the writings of the apostles and others writers of the NT were declaring the Words of Jesus.
Jesus is the Eternal Word of God, so His Words are Scripture.

With the close of the canon of the Scripture, we can affirm that the whole of the Scriptures are God breathed.
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Old 15th March 2010, 12:01 PM
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The first response in this thread summed it up pretty well - the New Testament clearly sets itself up as "Scripture". At the very least we can establish that the Old Testament is included as scripture. We can also infer that the teachings of Jesus are also scripture (the "word of God" - since Jesus was God, after all).

All that is left to ascertain is whether the commentaries on Jesus' life and teachings (the Epistles and other New Testament texts) should also be considered "scripture". And if we consider that 2 Timothy is one of the last books to be written, it can be inferred that Paul was aware that Christians were viewing his letters as scripture, and had no problems including his own works as part of God's word.

Though to play Devil's Advocate - 2 Peter, from which we get the passage that Paul's writings are "scripture", was also one of the very last New Testament books to be written (likely contemporaneous with 2 Timothy, though with an upper-dating that may be slightly older) - thus it could be argued that 2 Peter was written with the agenda of making Paul's writings equal to scripture. However, this is easily refuted (in my opinion) by simply pointing out that if Paul's works were not being considered as scripture, then no church would accept 2 Peter as a genuine writing of the apostle. And again to play Devil's advocate, some scholars do not believe Peter was the author; but then, these same scholars do not believe Paul was the real author of 2 Timothy - but this goes beyond the scope of the thread-question - suffice it to say that the New Testament is internally consistent and agrees that these texts are part of the scriptures discussed in 2 Timothy.

Just a thought,

~ Regards, PA
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Old 16th March 2010, 11:16 AM
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Kiss

I was having major problems with holding onto my faith for a number of reasons, one of which was so many Christians clinging to the "inerrancy" of scripture. Sorry, a fair amount of it contradicts itself and IS historically errant. Certain towns didn't exist at times when the Bible says they did, etc. I wrestled with this a lot, then a much wiser man than me came up with something that set me a little more at ease.

He had had the same problems I had, then came to a conclusion I could live with - the Bible is "God inspired" not "God dictated." In short, it was done by man and has been messed with by fallable mankind for thousands of years, of course it has problems in it. But, the basics there are sound, so if something disagrees with your spirit, study on it.

Take care and God bless.
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  #6  
Old 16th March 2010, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Standing Up View Post
Peter calls Paul's writings scripture.

And Paul calls Matthew and Luke's works scripture.
OK, so who called Peter's writings scripture?
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Old 17th March 2010, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Dolgoch View Post
Timothy states that all scripture is God breathed etc, what scripture is he talking about, he only had the OT and not the Bible in its present form including the NT scritures.
Read through Samuel and ask yourself if this little lot is 'God breathed" - I hope not.
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Old 17th March 2010, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by bibleblevr View Post
OK, so who called Peter's writings scripture?
That was the PS part. Here are some details of the principle of how the writings of the apostlic eyewitnesses are alike to the OT writings by prophets --

Lk. 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they shall slay and persecute:

That's OT prophets and NT apostles.

Lk. 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Of the OT prophets, Abel was the first to die and Zacharias the last. What's between them is scripture given to them (Rom. 3:2). IOW, whatever Plato may have wrote is not scripture as he wasn't a Jewish prophet. Moses and Ezra, however, were.

And the NT apostles?

Mk. 3:17 And James the [son] of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:

Acts 12:7 James was the first apostle to die.

John was the last.

Between them from eyewitnesses only is written what is scripture. For example, Polycarp's writings are not scripture; he wasn't an eyewitness.

That's the principle. Hope it helps.
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  #9  
Old 18th March 2010, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Standing Up View Post
That was the PS part. Here are some details of the principle of how the writings of the apostlic eyewitnesses are alike to the OT writings by prophets --

Lk. 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they shall slay and persecute:

That's OT prophets and NT apostles.

Lk. 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Of the OT prophets, Abel was the first to die and Zacharias the last. What's between them is scripture given to them (Rom. 3:2). IOW, whatever Plato may have wrote is not scripture as he wasn't a Jewish prophet. Moses and Ezra, however, were.

And the NT apostles?

Mk. 3:17 And James the [son] of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:

Acts 12:7 James was the first apostle to die.

John was the last.

Between them from eyewitnesses only is written what is scripture. For example, Polycarp's writings are not scripture; he wasn't an eyewitness.

That's the principle. Hope it helps.
Was the Nebuchadnezza a Jewish prophet? He appears to have written chapter four of Daniel.
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Old 18th March 2010, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Standing Up View Post
Not exactly.

Peter calls Paul's writings scripture.

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
I get this argument, and I have no reason to disagree, but you lost me with the following:

And Paul calls Matthew and Luke's works scripture.

1 Tim. 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward.

Deut. 25:4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out [the corn].

Luke 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.

Mt. 10:10 Nor scrip for [your] journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
It seems that Paul is quoting Jewish Scripture and tradition and possibly referring to oral accounts of Jesus' teachings. Whether this is reference to any of the written gospels is quite a bit speculative.
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