Home | Be a Christian | Devotionals | Join Us! | Forums | Rules | F.A.Q.


Go Back   Christian Forums > Discussion and Debate > Ethics & Morality
Register BlogsPrayersJobsArcade Calendar Mark Forums Read

Ethics & Morality A forum for the discussion and debate of ethics & morality open to all members.

Closed Thread
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Unread 18th February 2010, 07:35 PM
Newbie

Gender: Male Faith: Christian Member For 4 Years
 
Join Date: 17th February 2010
Posts: 18
Blessings: 115,456
Reps: 10 (power: 0)
Phronesis is on a distinguished road
Mandatory punishment for women who abort.

Just my thoughts on a subject.

If we consider abortion to be morally wrong on the level of murder, then it logically extends that we ought to punish the mother if she was complicit in the abortion process.

I got to thinking how law enforcement officials could prove beyong a reasonable doubt that an abortion had taken place, and the only conclusion I could come to is that women should be mandated to recieve maybe quarterly examinations of their uterus, under threat of jail if they refuse. Or maybe make pregnant women register and then if they "miscarry" then an exam will be ordered.

Women who have been found to have undergone abortion should be held as accomplices to murder, maybe conspirators as well, and then punished according to our preexisting laws on the subject.

If I really feel abortion is murder, then it necessarily follows that the people responsible for the murder ought to be punished. Retributive punishment will deter and influence women away from baby-producing activities, and hopefully reduce the amount of abortions.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this issue.
__________________

Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!

  #2  
Unread 18th February 2010, 07:39 PM
Tropical Wilds's Avatar
Lord, beer me strength...

Gender: Female Country: British Virgin Islands Member For 5 Years Armor Bearer
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 2nd October 2009
Location: New England
Posts: 1,847
Blessings: 183,820
My Mood Cynical
Reps: 222,209,757,795,018,592 (power: 222,209,757,795,025)
Tropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond repute
Tropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond repute
Wow...



I've had 7 losses in my reproductive life. Very glad that on top of that pain I didn't have to be treated like a criminal for it. My heart was broken enough.

And I see a FSTDT submission in your future.
__________________

__________________
For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. ~ Luke 12:34

2014 Update: I'm walking to EPCOT!
749.49 miles down out of 1361.
  #3  
Unread 18th February 2010, 07:42 PM
yasic's Avatar
Part time poster, Full time lurker

27 Gender: Male Faith: Atheist Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 9th September 2005
Posts: 5,260
Blessings: 1,255,033
My Mood Bored
Reps: 56,505,303,855,804,096 (power: 56,505,303,855,819)
yasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond repute
yasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond repute
I don't think that we can infringe on a persons private life just to prevent murder. We cannot set up survalence in a persons home even if we think he might commit murder.

As such, we should only persecute women who we know for a fact had an abortion.
__________________

  #4  
Unread 18th February 2010, 07:50 PM
Zeru's Avatar
one day at a time.

Gender: Female Faith: Agnostic Party: US-Democrat Country: United States Member For 4 Years
 
Join Date: 3rd February 2010
Posts: 76
Blessings: 142,524
My Mood Worried
Reps: 6,003,186,818,682,372 (power: 6,003,186,818,687)
Zeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond repute
Zeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond reputeZeru has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by yasic View Post
I don't think that we can infringe on a persons private life just to prevent murder. We cannot set up survalence in a persons home even if we think he might commit murder.

As such, we should only persecute women who we know for a fact had an abortion.
'Prosecute'...
OP's issue was how to prove this beyond reasonable doubt. Heck, even probable cause would be hard to establish without a police officer witnessing the event. One almost never knows anything for a fact in the legal system...there are varying scales of certainty. A FACT is "It is impossible for two solid objects to occupy the same space." So on, so forth.
__________________

__________________
But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner who needs it the most?
  #5  
Unread 18th February 2010, 07:51 PM
Newbie

Gender: Male Faith: Christian Member For 4 Years
 
Join Date: 17th February 2010
Posts: 18
Blessings: 115,456
Reps: 10 (power: 0)
Phronesis is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by Tropical Wilds View Post
Wow...



I've had 7 losses in my reproductive life. Very glad that on top of that pain I didn't have to be treated like a criminal for it. My heart was broken enough.

And I see a FSTDT submission in your future.
FSTDT?

I'm deeply sorry for your losses, if it were up to me no one would ever experience such heartbreak, I just don't know how to reconcile the belief that abortion is every bit as immoral and undesirable as murder with the idea that we shouldn't punish the people who choose to bring it about.

If abortion is murder, we should punish the murderers. We investigate peoples personal, private lives all the time in the effort to solve crimes; the more egregious the crime, the more we look the other way as privacy is invaded.

Originally Posted by yasic View Post
I don't think that we can infringe on a persons private life just to prevent murder. We cannot set up survalence in a persons home even if we think he might commit murder.

As such, we should only persecute women who we know for a fact had an abortion.
I'm not proposing mandatory examinations to directly prevent murder; I see it more along the lines taking DNA from you to match it to a murder weapon.

Modern society makes it OK for the state to violate your privacy in many ways to solve crimes and enact justice; why should such a heinous crime as infanticide get special treatment?
__________________

  #6  
Unread 18th February 2010, 07:55 PM
Tropical Wilds's Avatar
Lord, beer me strength...

Gender: Female Country: British Virgin Islands Member For 5 Years Armor Bearer
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 2nd October 2009
Location: New England
Posts: 1,847
Blessings: 183,820
My Mood Cynical
Reps: 222,209,757,795,018,592 (power: 222,209,757,795,025)
Tropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond repute
Tropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond repute
Maybe we should make pregnancy tests something you can only get from behind a pharmacy counter and you take the test right there and show it to the pharmacist who reads the result and, if you're pregnant, enters you into a national "you're pregnant" database and women have to register weekly, like sex offenders, to report the status of their pregnancy and if any woman experiences a loss, she'd be investigated.

Because really, lets forget personal freedoms and right to privacy and innocent until proven guilty. Let's assume all women would abort all babies because women are all evil and they all hate children and would abort them the second they had the chance.

/sarcasm
__________________

__________________
For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. ~ Luke 12:34

2014 Update: I'm walking to EPCOT!
749.49 miles down out of 1361.
  #7  
Unread 18th February 2010, 07:57 PM
yasic's Avatar
Part time poster, Full time lurker

27 Gender: Male Faith: Atheist Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 9th September 2005
Posts: 5,260
Blessings: 1,255,033
My Mood Bored
Reps: 56,505,303,855,804,096 (power: 56,505,303,855,819)
yasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond repute
yasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond reputeyasic has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Phronesis View Post
I'm not proposing mandatory examinations to directly prevent murder; I see it more along the lines taking DNA from you to match it to a murder weapon.

Modern society makes it OK for the state to violate your privacy in many ways to solve crimes and enact justice; why should such a heinous crime as infanticide get special treatment?
Then treat it like you would any other murder. If you find a murder weapon with blood, and you have good probable cause to think that a specific woman was the mother, get a warrant for her DNA.

You can't force her DNA until a crime is committed, anymore than you can with any other criminal.
__________________

  #8  
Unread 18th February 2010, 07:59 PM
Tropical Wilds's Avatar
Lord, beer me strength...

Gender: Female Country: British Virgin Islands Member For 5 Years Armor Bearer
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 2nd October 2009
Location: New England
Posts: 1,847
Blessings: 183,820
My Mood Cynical
Reps: 222,209,757,795,018,592 (power: 222,209,757,795,025)
Tropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond repute
Tropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond reputeTropical Wilds has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Phronesis View Post
FSTDT?
Fundies say the darndest things.

I'm deeply sorry for your losses, if it were up to me no one would ever experience such heartbreak, I just don't know how to reconcile the belief that abortion is every bit as immoral and undesirable as murder with the idea that we shouldn't punish the people who choose to bring it about.

If abortion is murder, we should punish the murderers.
While morally you or I may believe it to be akin to murder, the definition of murder is unlawful and intentional killing of another person. Because it is legal to get an abortion pre-viability, it isn't defined as murder anywhere other than in people's own personal moral code. So women can't be treated like criminals for getting pregnant.
__________________

__________________
For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. ~ Luke 12:34

2014 Update: I'm walking to EPCOT!
749.49 miles down out of 1361.
  #9  
Unread 18th February 2010, 07:59 PM
Wedjat's Avatar
Spirited Apostate

23 Gender: Male Faith: Atheist Country: United States Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 9th August 2009
Location: Home sweet home
Posts: 2,754
Blessings: 16,042,689
My Mood Pensive
Reps: 64,500,400,981,488,344 (power: 64,500,400,981,496)
Wedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond repute
Wedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond repute
Here's the thing though. Abortions aren't illegal. Some people may consider them morally equivalent to murder, but at the moment the law doesn't, so hypothesizing about how best to punish people who have abortions is kind of useless if abortions aren't illegal in the first place.
__________________

__________________
"When work seems overwhelming, remember that you are going to die"
Strangely enough this motivates me.
  #10  
Unread 18th February 2010, 08:00 PM
Wedjat's Avatar
Spirited Apostate

23 Gender: Male Faith: Atheist Country: United States Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 9th August 2009
Location: Home sweet home
Posts: 2,754
Blessings: 16,042,689
My Mood Pensive
Reps: 64,500,400,981,488,344 (power: 64,500,400,981,496)
Wedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond repute
Wedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond reputeWedjat has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by Tropical Wilds View Post
While morally you or I may believe it to be akin to murder, the definition of murder is unlawful and intentional killing of another person. Because it is legal to get an abortion pre-viability, it isn't defined as murder anywhere other than in people's own personal moral code. So women can't be treated like criminals for getting pregnant.
Never mind, beat me to it.
__________________

__________________
"When work seems overwhelming, remember that you are going to die"
Strangely enough this motivates me.
Closed Thread


Return to Ethics & Morality

Thread Tools
Display Modes


 
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:00 PM.