Mandatory punishment for women who abort.

Phronesis · #1 18th February 2010, 06:35 PM

Just my thoughts on a subject.

If we consider abortion to be morally wrong on the level of murder, then it logically extends that we ought to punish the mother if she was complicit in the abortion process.

I got to thinking how law enforcement officials could prove beyong a reasonable doubt that an abortion had taken place, and the only conclusion I could come to is that women should be mandated to recieve maybe quarterly examinations of their uterus, under threat of jail if they refuse. Or maybe make pregnant women register and then if they "miscarry" then an exam will be ordered.

Women who have been found to have undergone abortion should be held as accomplices to murder, maybe conspirators as well, and then punished according to our preexisting laws on the subject.

If I really feel abortion is murder, then it necessarily follows that the people responsible for the murder ought to be punished. Retributive punishment will deter and influence women away from baby-producing activities, and hopefully reduce the amount of abortions.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this issue.

Tropical Wilds · #2 18th February 2010, 06:39 PM

Wow...

I've had 7 losses in my reproductive life. Very glad that on top of that pain I didn't have to be treated like a criminal for it. My heart was broken enough.

And I see a FSTDT submission in your future.

yasic · #3 18th February 2010, 06:42 PM

I don't think that we can infringe on a persons private life just to prevent murder. We cannot set up survalence in a persons home even if we think he might commit murder.

As such, we should only persecute women who we know for a fact had an abortion.

Zeru · #4 18th February 2010, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by yasic

I don't think that we can infringe on a persons private life just to prevent murder. We cannot set up survalence in a persons home even if we think he might commit murder.

As such, we should only persecute women who we know for a fact had an abortion.

'Prosecute'...
OP's issue was how to prove this beyond reasonable doubt. Heck, even probable cause would be hard to establish without a police officer witnessing the event. One almost never knows anything for a fact in the legal system...there are varying scales of certainty. A FACT is "It is impossible for two solid objects to occupy the same space." So on, so forth.

Phronesis · #5 18th February 2010, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by Tropical Wilds

Wow...

I've had 7 losses in my reproductive life. Very glad that on top of that pain I didn't have to be treated like a criminal for it. My heart was broken enough.

And I see a FSTDT submission in your future.

FSTDT?

I'm deeply sorry for your losses, if it were up to me no one would ever experience such heartbreak, I just don't know how to reconcile the belief that abortion is every bit as immoral and undesirable as murder with the idea that we shouldn't punish the people who choose to bring it about.

If abortion is murder, we should punish the murderers. We investigate peoples personal, private lives all the time in the effort to solve crimes; the more egregious the crime, the more we look the other way as privacy is invaded.

Originally Posted by yasic

I don't think that we can infringe on a persons private life just to prevent murder. We cannot set up survalence in a persons home even if we think he might commit murder.

As such, we should only persecute women who we know for a fact had an abortion.

I'm not proposing mandatory examinations to directly prevent murder; I see it more along the lines taking DNA from you to match it to a murder weapon.

Modern society makes it OK for the state to violate your privacy in many ways to solve crimes and enact justice; why should such a heinous crime as infanticide get special treatment?

Tropical Wilds · #6 18th February 2010, 06:55 PM

Maybe we should make pregnancy tests something you can only get from behind a pharmacy counter and you take the test right there and show it to the pharmacist who reads the result and, if you're pregnant, enters you into a national "you're pregnant" database and women have to register weekly, like sex offenders, to report the status of their pregnancy and if any woman experiences a loss, she'd be investigated.

Because really, lets forget personal freedoms and right to privacy and innocent until proven guilty. Let's assume all women would abort all babies because women are all evil and they all hate children and would abort them the second they had the chance.

/sarcasm

yasic · #7 18th February 2010, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Phronesis

I'm not proposing mandatory examinations to directly prevent murder; I see it more along the lines taking DNA from you to match it to a murder weapon.

Modern society makes it OK for the state to violate your privacy in many ways to solve crimes and enact justice; why should such a heinous crime as infanticide get special treatment?

Then treat it like you would any other murder. If you find a murder weapon with blood, and you have good probable cause to think that a specific woman was the mother, get a warrant for her DNA.

You can't force her DNA until a crime is committed, anymore than you can with any other criminal.

Tropical Wilds · #8 18th February 2010, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by Phronesis

FSTDT?

Fundies say the darndest things.

I'm deeply sorry for your losses, if it were up to me no one would ever experience such heartbreak, I just don't know how to reconcile the belief that abortion is every bit as immoral and undesirable as murder with the idea that we shouldn't punish the people who choose to bring it about.

If abortion is murder, we should punish the murderers.

While morally you or I may believe it to be akin to murder, the definition of murder is unlawful and intentional killing of another person. Because it is legal to get an abortion pre-viability, it isn't defined as murder anywhere other than in people's own personal moral code. So women can't be treated like criminals for getting pregnant.

Wedjat · #9 18th February 2010, 06:59 PM

Here's the thing though. Abortions aren't illegal. Some people may consider them morally equivalent to murder, but at the moment the law doesn't, so hypothesizing about how best to punish people who have abortions is kind of useless if abortions aren't illegal in the first place.

Wedjat · #10 18th February 2010, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by Tropical Wilds

While morally you or I may believe it to be akin to murder, the definition of murder is unlawful and intentional killing of another person. Because it is legal to get an abortion pre-viability, it isn't defined as murder anywhere other than in people's own personal moral code. So women can't be treated like criminals for getting pregnant.

Never mind, beat me to it.