Originally Posted by mlqurgw 
I have no problem with science except when it takes on God and tries to start a war. God wins.
It is not that simple. You cannot apply such a binary code. I believe the bible, but I don't believe creationism as preached by Americans to be right. Oh sure it's easy to read the bible that way, but it's equally easy to read it another way.
Again though, this is not about science or evolution but about a way people read the bible. I could just as well have brought forth any number of heretical or dubious directions in theology such as the violence behind the crusades, a lot of political convictions attempted tied in with the bible and/or the prosperity gospel which I personally cannot get myself to neither like nor support in any way.
In the same breath I do of course acknowledge that I myself am fallible and can be wrong in any and everything I say. I can only strive towards objectivity and humility, knowing I fall short as the human being I am.
If someone attempts a war with God through science that is not science but religion. And like you say, God will indubitably win any such conflict. Which is one reason we should be careful about being too certain on scientific issues. God will win through no matter what happens. If we happen to be on the wrong side we'll not only loose the argument but also discredit Christianity and Jesus in the process. For this reason as well as others I counsel humility. But science itself cannot issue a challenge or start a war with God. Science is merely the observation and attempt at explaining facts. If true science appears to be in conflict with God there are two possibilities: a; the hypothesis is incorrect. b; the observer's understanding of God is incorrect.
As nothing appears to point to the estimated age of the universe being off by roughly 13.7 billion years in creationism's favor we can assume that faulty humanity is to blame for the apparent discrepancy. Not the science. After all, God lying to us through His creation is a ludicrous assumption.
Originally Posted by mlqurgw Folks can argue all they want about how God created and how long it took or any other thing that interests them but it is of no real value. What have you got if you find out all about the science of creation and loose your own soul? You see we are not about convincing others that God created or how He created. The Scriptures clearly tell us He did. You either believe the Bible or you don't. Now what if I do convince an infidel that God created and explained to him all about it what have I done for him? I have made him twicefold more a child of Hell than he was before. I convinced him to believe my argument but I have not convinced him of the one thing that will do his soul good, faith in Christ. Even if I could come up with the best argument in the world to believe on Christ I wouldn't try to convince folks of it by argument. If I do convince them all I have done is convince then to have faith in my argument not in Christ. You see, our duty is to point folks to Christ not to science or our well thought out arguments. That is what God gave us our brains for.
To this I can do nought but agree. It is unimportant how God created the universe when compared to His plan for our salvation!
I have seen many lose sight of Jesus while preaching creationism, evolution, material profit or healing resulting from a conversion. It grieves me to see this. And it grieves me when such groups manage to convince many others that christianity is about what they preach in regards to these topics, not about Christ's sacrifice and love. I have often been asked "Why are you a Christian anyway? You're too smart to believe THAT!" followed by a referral to a perception of Christianity which has been skewed and twisted away from Christ and His love and onto something that is not pertinent to our salvation. I have also heard many say "I cannot believe in Christianity because of ***" followed by a referral to one of these points as well. This grieves me deeply.
Originally Posted by icamewithasword Faith Guardian,
It seems that the Genesis creation account is what you have problems with.... not the people who don't agree with you.
Neither, actually.
I have a problem with a certain way to interpret the bible. What that way centers on varies from congregation to congregation. It can be in some cases the genesis account. Claiming that one's own way of reading it is absolute. It can be the prosperity gospel. Or other directions claiming ethnic superiority or preaching violence against non-believers. The latter are extremely easy to both spot and dismiss but they still exist and their arguments are the same as the ones that we ourselves often use. It is not any person or group of people I wish to show anger at, but rather what I see - pardon my bluntness - arrogance in reading the bible. An arrogance which can blind the reader to God's true intent. Some focus more on material goods and money than on Jesus and justify this with the bible. Some focus exclusively on creationism and preach that, yet Jesus takes second place.
Originally Posted by icamewithasword Seek what God says thru the Scriptures, not what you say; not what I say..... not what man's wisdom says. If you have had a special revelation concerning what or how God did what He did, then share that with us babes in Christ. But don't try to muddy my faith by stating that your scientific approach to God is the better way.
I am not specifically addressing evolution or genesis but a more general way of reading the bible in which humility is so far back it's practically out the door. I am speaking of the arrogance concerning several things many different congregations use. Creationism can be one such thing.
It is this I wish to address. The arrogant certainty that one's own deductions are superior to those of all others. The tendency many people have to say that "This is God's word!" while pointing not at the bible but at their own thoughts and positions. You ask for a revelation if I have it. There it is. This is it; Be humble. Arrogant assumptions push people away from Christ and can easily prove to be heretical even though the individual person in his position may not see it.
I am not attempting to muddy your faith. I am trying to address an issue I have seen in Christ's church
Originally Posted by icamewithasword If you don't believe what Scripture says, then say so.
I do. I just don't believe man is infallible.
Originally Posted by icamewithasword If you don't believe in six literal days, then say so.
To refer to Augustine; a literal six day creation is impossible as day and night denote the rotations around the sun. Whereas the sun was created on day 4. Hence this literal interpretation is a logical impossibility.
Originally Posted by icamewithasword Tell me we are lying to our children who attend Sunday School, and learn six days of creation.
You are teaching them to the best of your ability, no doubt. The problem is that certain things not pertinent to salvation and at the same time in conflict with very heavy data, either spiritual, psychological, biological, ethical or scientific taught as an absolute truth can and does drive people to discard their faith because of the implied association this creates. For example a strict doctrine that focuses on sexual sins to the exclusion of both other sins and the mercy of Christ can drive some to such shameful thoughts concerning their sexuality it has a negative effect and drives them away from Christ. Yes, it's a sin to even think about sexual intercourse with a person with whom you're not married. The bible is mighty clear on that. And yes we should preach that. But we must not forget how it also preaches mercy, forgiveness and love. Even the beauty of sex is taught in a whole book of the bible. The song of songs is highly erotic and should not be neglected. Eros is a form of love which like all other forms can be perverted and lead to sin. But it itself is not dirty and sinful in the right framework. Besides there are other sins like greed, selfishness, slander and so on that are very heavily condemned in the bible.
The same can be said about political directions preached as an absolute christian ideal. When I was in Ecuador as a missionary's son I saw the effects capitalism had on the workers who lived in squalor. Some of whom met with disease and a premature death, or dismemberment as a direct result of their employers seeking to maximize their profits for the benefit of their investors. It caused a mighty wrath in me, as well it should. The system was unjust and caused harm to the weakest. Now, I am not advocating communism mind you. The political scene is large and not just those two extremes. What I am saying is that from my experiences there I deduced that capitalism if applied without restraint is just greed set into a political system. Which is antithetical to Christian core values. What I am saying is that preaching certain capitalistic principles
may be right (I don't know to be honest). But saying that the human construct it is is actually a divinely ordained political direction is false and highly destructive. These are my deductions and should be seen as subjectively interpreted empirical data of course. But such was my conclusion. As a response to it I also saw some churches adopting the polar opposite ideal. Christian socialism is strong in many areas of South America as a response to the terrible injustices that are there.
So I am not saying you're lying to your children. I am saying that in this, too, humility is important. We're humans and understand only very little. Teaching them that certain things are absolutes like what I have outlined above can often have negative consequences. We need to equip our children to face the world knowing that no matter what comes, Jesus is there with them. Loving and kind. Love is what we should teach them above all else.
Originally Posted by icamewithasword Your scientific unerstanding gives you a greater level of discernment....
What does math or physics say about creation from nothing?
It cannot answer that question yet. And if it could, would it necessarily eliminate God from the proverbial equation? Of course not. We can understand and explain several miracles with mathematics, physics and/or other fields. But that does not make the act any less divine or miraculous.
Originally Posted by icamewithasword The burning bush which was not consumed?
Dare I even bring up the Noahic flood?
Turning water into wine?
Healing the blind with spit?
Feeding over 5000 with little bread and fish?
Raising the dead to life?
Walking on water?
Coming back from the dead after 3 days in a tomb?
I see your fear, but I don't think there's much substance to them. We now know how the sun works. We know what holds the celestial bodies where they are, and what the stars are. Does the grandeur of the space above us or the detail of the nuclear structure of our bodies or everything around us disprove a God? No. Many, including myself, would say it is a very strong indication of His presence and power. The more I learn of how wonderfully made our universe is, and how incredibly fragile our lives, our solar system yes the very universe itself is, the more I am awed by God. The problem with this is not that I see God's presence more clearly, that's all good! The problem is that when a six day creation six to ten thousand years is preached so fervently by many Americans that students and scientists abandon the faith by mere association with this as it is demonstrably false through very simple observations of the universe around us; look at the starry sky. Most of the stars you can see if you venture out of the city would not be visible in a universe that young. While it is not creationism itself I have wished to address here but rather that approach to reading the bible I think it is an excellent example. Of course we could bring forth another example in the prosperity gospel where the approach is much the same. They, too, claim to put the bible first yet dismiss out of hand any indication of their interpretation of the bible being wrong. It is that arrogance I have intended to address.
Do you believe these as written; or do you reserve judgment till the time science can explain them?
I
do believe in what is written. Do I believe them as they are written, yes. I just don't think you're reading it all right. I don't think I am either mind you. God knows I am but a mere human with flaws of my own. And it is this realization I wish to convey. If you wish to be a creationist, fine. Just don't preach it as an absolute the way geocentrists preached that as an absolute truth in Galileo's days.
At what point do you abandon science and just Believe?
I do not need to abandon science to believe. Science is but a tool to understand what God did and how He did it. If it reveals that we're mistaken, all the better. It means we can come closer to knowing God for who He is, not for who we as mere humans think He is. I don't want to know a picture derived from my own thoughts, I want to know
God. I can't do that only with introspection and the bible. There's more to Him
or am I asking for too much humility 
Of course you are more than welcome to comment!
; but 
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